Pre welfare state

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The defence for absolute scumbags that would beat the living daylights out of their defenders here and steal from them just for fun is extraordinary.

I actually do hope they have a confrontation with said scumbags that terrorise communities up and down this country one day.

The attitude will change will change quick fast.

nope. there is no defence, just giving some reality. suggest realistic solutions rather then "cut ja doal rabel rabel" and people will listen.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Then stop defending them.

I know of people who are terrified to leave their homes.

I want you to tell those people that their abusers are to be paid to stop their lives being made more hellish.

What we have here is leftist nonsense from middle class people who have zero experience in these areas, have zero contact with these bastards and are totally deluded as to how people are forced to live.

Support these people?

No way.

again nope. there is no defending. the reality is that social issues are very complex and their are hords of other issues surrounding them, meaning they will not be easily solved, if solvible at all.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a news story only recently (a few months ago) where an elderly couple were split up and sent to separate care homes, it took a public outcry for the local health authority to find accommodation for them to stay together.

I remember that. They had been together so many years.

Graces7

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If Varadkar or any leader of this country came out today and said "if you are on welfare and getting the assistance of this state and you break the law I am going to cut your dole" I can absolutely guarantee they will be the most popular leaders going.

Without a shadow of a doubt.

And yes, I do think the threat of welfare cuts for criminality and failure to control children would focus the minds of the parents pretty quick!

Also a favorite tactic of the left is this "but the rich" thing...we are not talking about the rich. The middle are screwed from both sides in this country.

so what happens to their dependents?

Graces7

kermit; I have to admit freely that I have never lived on an estate etc. There have indeed been some shocking threads here on boards re those renting on them.

Kermit.de.frog

Graces7 wrote: »

so what happens to their dependents?

I'm not not being harsh but why should anyone else care?

It's really simple. You are a parent then look after your kids.

Where the hell does personal responsibility come in to anything here?

People think it's just jobs that drive people from this country. It is not. It is also the dysfunction of this society that allows this nonsense (among many other things) to be subsidised by taxpayers.

If you are a parent look after your bloody kids. Don't expect anyone else to do it for you.

This society is being wrecked because of the welfare state and what it tolerates. It's disgraceful and it is immoral.

Honest, hard working people just trying to live decent lives being screwed. End of.

paw patrol

eeguy wrote: »

You know how you have money to go on holidays, buy nice clothes and treat yourself on occassion?

He's living with his parents, and still will be into his mid-30's cause there's a 10 year wait on the housing list. He has no prospects and his situation will never improve, from now till the day he dies.

Maybe he is content with this, given his previous application to life it seems a reasonable assumption.

I like the welfare state but it's application in Ireland is all over the place. It is designed to help people like our hypothetical friend in the story above.
It does not help a working man with a house , mortgage etc...who has worked and paid taxes for decades who finds himself out of work.

Try survive a period on the dole with a mortgage it's impossible. However living on the dole in a council house is a lot easier in fact some people make a career of it.
Yet ask yourself who has benefited the state more?
That's where the system is broken.

A multi generational dole master is handed everything while a middle class person is continually harassed by the system. Something I have witnessed. This is the flaw where the hate comes from.

I am amazed at the number of people who haven't a notion what conservative means yet claim they are conservative.

Capt'n Midnight

In times when people couldn't afford their own roof over their heads

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flophouse

Cage hotels ... were lofts or other large, open buildings that were subdivided into tiny cubicles using boards or sheets of corrugated iron. Since these walls were always one to three feet short of the floor or ceiling, the open space was sealed off with chicken wire, hence the name “cage hotels."

A 1958 survey by Christopher Jencks found that homeless men preferred cage hotels over shelters for reasons of privacy and security.

They preferred lodging and boarding houses to cages, cages to dormitories, dormitories to flops, and flops to the city’s shelters. Men could act on these preferences by moving as their incomes increased.

Billy86

Apparently they're still not-too-rare in some parts of the world. There six full homes in this picture (not including the ones off on the side, barely in frame).

VinLieger

Graces7 wrote: »

so what happens to their dependents?

Why is that anyone's issue but the people responsible for them? ie their parents?

Graces7

VinLieger wrote: »

Why is that anyone's issue but the people responsible for them? ie their parents?

So it is not important what happens to children? When you have removed or ghettoised their parents??

VinLieger

Graces7 wrote: »

So it is not important what happens to children? When you have removed or ghettoised their parents??

Well they will obviously go into the system, its not ideal but I doubt its any worse than they would be living with their hypothetical recidivist parents.

I suppose you would prefer to continue just doing as we are cus its working so well?

Graces7

VinLieger wrote: »

Well they will obviously go into the system, its not ideal but I doubt its any worse than they would be living with their hypothetical recidivist parents.

I suppose you would prefer to continue just doing as we are cus its working so well?

For the majority, it IS working well. If you really think someone is cheating the system, report them?

We have no idea what those you slate are going through . The majority of us being supported by welfare have no other choice.

What does "go into the system" entail? Being torn from their family? We have been there and done that. Did not work then and never will

VinLieger

Graces7 wrote: »

For the majority, it IS working well. If you really think someone is cheating the system, report them?

We have no idea what those you slate are going through . The majority of us being supported by welfare have no other choice.

What does "go into the system" entail? Being torn from their family? We have been there and done that. Did not work then and never will

Gotcha, "nothing to see here, there's absolutely no consistent repeat offenders receiving handouts from the state"

Im not slating everyone on welfare im talking about people who break the law repeatedly and still turn up for their payment every week with no issues, denying this happens is denying reality.

Im sure the majority on welfare arent like this but the system is far far from perfect and if you want it to be changed so people like yourself are looked after better there needs to be other reforms too that attack the other problems in the system.

Graces7

VinLieger wrote: »

Gotcha, "nothing to see here, there's absolutely no consistent repeat offenders receiving handouts from the state"

Im not slating everyone on welfare im talking about people who break the law repeatedly and still turn up for their payment every week with no issues, denying this happens is denying reality.

Im sure the majority on welfare arent like this but the system is far far from perfect and if you want it to be changed so people like yourself are looked after better there needs to be other reforms too that attack the other problems in the system.

How do you know this happens? I am not denying reality, if you are right that this happens, but asking.
I had a hidden illness many years and got told( in the UK) I should be working when there was no way I could . And it is not as easy as you think to get money like that. It really isn't. Checks, more check, paperwork galore.

And I am looked after very well, thank you.;)

And to get back to the thread, would you rather go back to the old system?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

How do you know this happens? I am not denying reality, if you are right that this happens, but asking.
I had a hidden illness many years and got told( in the UK) I should be working when there was no way I could . And it is not as easy as you think to get money like that. It really isn't. Checks, more check, paperwork galore.

And I am looked after very well, thank you.;)

And to get back to the thread, would you rather go back to the old system?

Graces7 nobody is equating this to your circumstances. It's about welfare recipients who are repeat offenders - of course it happens; read the papers every week for the court cases where the defendant has multiple convictions and is on welfare. If most definitely happens. But, again, nobody referenced anything remotely like your circumstances.


Back to the old ways? No. Workhouses and destitution are not the answer. But we may have swung a bit too far the other way as well.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

What's the answer though? I'm not asking that to try to be provocative, I genuinely don't know how to solve it. IMO if you cut these people off they're just going to turn even more towards criminal activity, leading to the cost of keeping them in prisons.

I know a lot of people see posts like this as expressing sympathy towards these criminals but that's not where I'm coming from - I have no sympathy whatsoever for them. I just think the problem is harder to solve than a lot of people seem to think.

And I fully agree with you.

Wanderer78

Hunter Slow Jaguar wrote:

And I fully agree with you.

Criminality is highly complex, it truly is worth talking to those that engage in this behaviour, and those that work closely with them

VinLieger

Graces7 wrote: »

How do you know this happens? I am not denying reality, if you are right that this happens, but asking.
I had a hidden illness many years and got told( in the UK) I should be working when there was no way I could . And it is not as easy as you think to get money like that. It really isn't. Checks, more check, paperwork galore.

And I am looked after very well, thank you.;)

And to get back to the thread, would you rather go back to the old system?

I know it happens as there are newspapers reports every week about repeat offenders getting let off incredibly lightly, who have no employment and receive welfare.

I think anybody who consistently and repeatedly rejects the basic rules the rest of society has agreed to live by while at the same time expecting that same society to still take care of them with cheap housing, welfare and healthcare needs to be cut off in some way to show them there are consequences for their actions as the current ones obviously do not work in these cases.

Wanderer78

VinLieger wrote: »

I know it happens as there are newspapers reports every week about repeat offenders getting let off incredibly lightly, who have no employment and receive welfare.

I think anybody who consistently and repeatedly rejects the basic rules the rest of society has agreed to live by while at the same time expecting that same society to still take care of them with cheap housing, welfare and healthcare needs to be cut off in some way to show them there are consequences for their actions as the current ones obviously do not work in these cases.

what if you suffer with highly complex disorders that cause issues such as impulsivity etc?

VinLieger

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if you suffer with highly complex disorders that cause issues such as impulsivity etc?

Im not going to get into edge case scenario's over as you say "highly complex disorders" as the solutions would need to complex as well and im not familiar with enough of the specifics

Wanderer78

VinLieger wrote: »

Im not going to get into edge case scenario's over as you say "highly complex disorders" as the solutions would need to complex as well and im not familiar with enough of the specifics

as i said previously, i would recommend talking to criminals and those that work with them, its very complex and some what tragic.

Graces7

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Remember that lad in your class in school who never listened, disrupted the class, dropped out at 16??

Well even though you worked hard in school/college/career and made many sacrifices, well he is entitled to the same house you have except you pay for his and your own house while he pays nothing.

Would you rather be him than you? All teachers had kids like that and we did our best and did not discriminate

If he has nothing he pays.. well he still pays. No one gets a free house. He maybe also had no supportive family;

Graces7

VinLieger wrote: »

Im not going to get into edge case scenario's over as you say "highly complex disorders" as the solutions would need to complex as well and im not familiar with enough of the specifics

The species?What species? These are human beings, same as we all are. With the same needs and yes, same rights.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

The species?What species? These are human beings, same as we all are. With the same needs and yes, same rights.

Specifics!!!!

Graces7

VinLieger wrote: »

I know it happens as there are newspapers reports every week about repeat offenders getting let off incredibly lightly, who have no employment and receive welfare.

I think anybody who consistently and repeatedly rejects the basic rules the rest of society has agreed to live by while at the same time expecting that same society to still take care of them with cheap housing, welfare and healthcare needs to be cut off in some way to show them there are consequences for their actions as the current ones obviously do not work in these cases.

Who makes "the rules"? These mythical rules...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Who makes "the rules"? These mythical rules...

Our nation's laws are not mythical. Those are the rules referred to.

Graces7

I abbhor this "them and us" mentality. And that is what is at the back of this .

Graces7

VinLieger wrote: »

I know it happens as there are newspapers reports every week about repeat offenders getting let off incredibly lightly, who have no employment and receive welfare.

I think anybody who consistently and repeatedly rejects the basic rules the rest of society has agreed to live by while at the same time expecting that same society to still take care of them with cheap housing, welfare and healthcare needs to be cut off in some way to show them there are consequences for their actions as the current ones obviously do not work in these cases.

Is not this what a welfare state is about? That all have housing and food etc? And medical care.