Dilemma with the bill

suirvale · 21-03-2018 11:43pm

i been involved in construction for years.
so often when it comes to the money the s**** hits the fan.
the customer will want fake receipt for insurance or their parents or tax claim.
so i i just want the Work but over the years i am tried of it all..too much stress trying to get work and money.

Graham · 21-03-2018 11:43pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

If the work was grant aided in full then I don't see how you would be allowed claim the VAT back - it would be the payee who could claim back the VAT.

Part grant aided...

Metric Tensor · 21-03-2018 11:49pm

Graham wrote: »

Part grant aided...

Thanks Graham.

Is it a percentage that's aided or up to a certain amount?

I have no experience with these grants but I have with many other types and there is no way the contractor will get paid from the public purse without a bona fide invoice. (With the one exception of a carte blanche grant direct to an individual to spend as they choose.)

Ginger83 · 21-03-2018 11:51pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Lads - just to clear one thing up.

The OP is not claiming on the Home Renovation Incentive - they are attempting to claim back the VAT under an allowance for disabled people.

OP:

If the work was grant aided in full then I don't see how you would be allowed claim the VAT back - it would be the payee who could claim back the VAT.

If the works were only partially grant aided then you can obviously go about claiming the VAT back on the portion you paid for.

To try to claim VAT back on works that are grant aided would surely mean you are making a profit on the grant?

Apologies if I have misunderstood anything here.

+1 its not the HRI scheme.

If we accepted the grant to our account and just paid the bill X + vat in total why can we not claim the vat in full?

Graham · 21-03-2018 11:57pm

A friend of mine used to do a lot of bathroom adaptation work so my knowledge is limited to assisting him with the renewal paperwork and general bar-stool chitchat.

What I do know;

He used to be on a panel of companies approved to do grant funded adaptation work. I know every 12/24/36 months he'd have to reapply to remain on the panel, part of that process involved resubmitting insurance, clearance certs etc. He most definitely had to submit an invoice to the LA as he'd often crib about how long it took for the invoices to be settled.

I do recall specific discussion about homeowners having to reclaim VAT from revenue.

Graham · 21-03-2018 11:59pm

Ginger83, would I be right in assuming your builder submitted a full VAT invoice to the local authority for the grant payment and you got no such invoice for your own contribution?

Or did you receive the grant and pay the builder directly with your contribution?

Metric Tensor · 22-03-2018 12:00am

Ginger83 wrote: »

+1 its not the HRI scheme.

If we accepted the grant to our account and just paid the bill X + vat in total why can we not claim the vat in full?

Because it's not you that paid the bill - it's the grant agency.

You just passed the money from the grant agency to the builder.

I could be wrong here so feel free to correct me but the system for reclaiming VAT is for when you spend your own money - i.e. it's a form of grant in itself.

Separately - if you think about it from a purely moralistic point of view - why would 13 odd percent of the grant be given to you as a bonus?

Graham · 22-03-2018 12:02am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Thanks Graham.

Is it a percentage that's aided or up to a certain amount?

I have no experience with these grants but I have with many other types and there is no way the contractor will get paid from the public purse without a bona fide invoice. (With the one exception of a carte blanche grant direct to an individual to spend as they choose.)

At the time the LA would agree with the homeowner to cover a certain amount. I don't think there was a fixed percentage, more a "here's what we'll contribute" from the LA.

No fixed %/amount, would vary from job-to-job.

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:04am

Graham wrote: »

Ginger83, would I be right in assuming your builder submitted a full VAT invoice to the local authority for the grant payment and you got no such invoice for your own contribution?

Or did you receive the grant and pay the builder directly with your contribution?

I've no idea what he submitted.

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:05am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Because it's not you that paid the bill - it's the grant agency.

You just passed the money from the grant agency to the builder.

I could be wrong here so feel free to correct me but the system for reclaiming VAT is for when you spend your own money - i.e. it's a form of grant in itself.

Separately - if you think about it from a purely moralistic point of view - why would 13 odd percent of the grant be given to you as a bonus?

I see your point.

Graham · 22-03-2018 12:05am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I could be wrong here so feel free to correct me but the system for reclaiming VAT is for when you spend your own money - i.e. it's a form of grant in itself.

I very vaguely recall the grant payment was made minus VAT on the basis the homeowner would pay, then reclaim the VAT.

Vaguely

In fact, correcting my earlier statement, my friend used to have to wait for the homeowner to receive the grant so that his invoice could be settled by the homeowner.

There were several jobs where he was concerned the homeowner had spent the grant and he'd be left out of pocket.

It's also possible/likely that the entire process varies from LA to LA.

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:12am

Graham wrote: »

I very vaguely recall the grant payment was made minus VAT on the basis the homeowner would pay, then reclaim the VAT.

Vaguely

In fact, correcting my earlier statement, my friend used to have to wait for the homeowner to receive the grant so that his invoice could be settled by the homeowner.

There were several jobs where he was concerned the homeowner had spent the grant and he'd be left out of pocket.

It's also possible/likely that the entire process varies from LA to LA.

If thats the case then i paid vat on the grant.

Graham · 22-03-2018 12:14am

Ginger83 wrote: »

If thats the case then i paid vat on the grant.

My guess would be whatever grant you were offered, you actually received that amount minus VAT. You would pay the VAT element of both the grant and self-funded parts on the basis you would later get refunded all of the VAT.

Was your builder referred from the panel by the LA?

Metric Tensor · 22-03-2018 12:14am

Graham wrote: »

I very vaguely recall the grant payment was made minus VAT on the basis the homeowner would pay, then reclaim the VAT.

Very possible. I've seen a few different systems for "dealing" with VAT depending on the agency.

Graham · 22-03-2018 12:17am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Very possible. I've seen a few different systems for "dealing" with VAT depending on the agency.

It was (probably still is) the most convoluted process. What made it worse was it was often very elderly/infirm recipients left to sort out all the paperwork and running around.

No fun for the builder either who had little choice but to phone the homeowner every week to see if the grant had arrived yet so their invoice could be settled.

Metric Tensor · 22-03-2018 12:19am

You should see the way the Dept of Education deal with it!!!

Convoluted would be an understatement.

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:22am

Graham wrote: »

My guess would be whatever grant you were offered, you actually received that amount minus VAT. You would pay the VAT element of both the grant and self-funded parts on the basis you would later get refunded all of the VAT.

Was your builder referred from the panel by the LA?

https://monaghan.ie/housing/housing-grants/

Different LA but clearly says grant EX vat.

No we picked what we thought was a reputable contractor.

HONKEY TONK · 22-03-2018 12:24am

Ginger83 wrote: »

If thats the case then i paid vat on the grant.

Did the grant cover the total cost including vat or did you have to add to the grant to cover the total cost including vat?

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:28am

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

Did the grant cover the total cost including vat or did you have to add to the grant to cover the total cost including vat?

Grant covered about 80%

Metric Tensor · 22-03-2018 12:28am

OP.

Say the builders quote was:

30000 + 4050 (VAT) = 34050

Did the granting agency give you 30000 or 34050 into you account?

Graham · 22-03-2018 12:33am

Messy situation Ginger83, I guess your next step is to get insistent with the builder that this was not a cash job. The original quote included VAT and you want a VAT invoice.

I can't imagine he will be keen as it will mean he has to pay the VAT element that you'll be reclaiming.

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:42am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

OP.

Say the builders quote was:

30000 + 4050 (VAT) = 34050

Did the granting agency give you 30000 or 34050 into you account?

On those figures 30k

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 12:43am

Graham wrote: »

Messy situation Ginger83, I guess your next step is to get insistent with the builder that this was not a cash job. The original quote included VAT and you want a VAT invoice.

I can't imagine he will be keen as it will mean he has to pay the VAT element that you'll be reclaiming.

Yes i can see a row coming but i've got the original quote.

Metric Tensor · 22-03-2018 1:02am

Ginger83 wrote: »

On those figures 30k

In that case I'd say you are totally entitled to claim it back and the grant was specifically paid ex VAT in the assumption that you would.

My previous comments were on the assumption that you had been given the 34k.

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 1:42am

Metric Tensor wrote: »

In that case I'd say you are totally entitled to claim it back and the grant was specifically paid ex VAT in the assumption that you would.

My previous comments were on the assumption that you had been given the 34k.

Ideally yes but being entitled to and obtaining a vat receipt could be quite different.

Metric Tensor · 22-03-2018 8:55am

He has some neck considering what could happen if he continues this line ....

I don't normally advocate threats of "reporting" people but in this case it's hard to see an alternative.

Sleeper12 · 22-03-2018 9:44am

Can I suggest you get in touch with whoever processed the grant & ask for any paperwork he might have provided them. Get all your own paper work together & have a meeting with the builder. Show him a copy of the quote showing vat & ask him to explain. Tell him the only option he is leaving you is to explain it all to revenue. Im sure he'll fold

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 4:09pm

Metric Tensor wrote: »

He has some neck considering what could happen if he continues this line ....

I don't normally advocate threats of "reporting" people but in this case it's hard to see an alternative.

Maybe a solicitors letter?

Ginger83 · 22-03-2018 4:10pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Can I suggest you get in touch with whoever processed the grant & ask for any paperwork he might have provided them. Get all your own paper work together & have a meeting with the builder. Show him a copy of the quote showing vat & ask him to explain. Tell him the only option he is leaving you is to explain it all to revenue. Im sure he'll fold

I already have the quote.

sydthebeat · 23-03-2018 1:10pm

its quite simple.

if hes given you a quotation with VAT included, and youve paid the full bill, he should give you a receipt with VAT included.

If youve paid him the full amount including VAT and hes now saying its a cash job, then hes pocketing the cash to the VAT amount.
report him to revenue.

Dilemma with the bill

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