So Patrick street is bus only from Thursday 9th August

fin12

Ludo wrote: »

How long did it take?

Well I broke the law and went down the bus lane to get on to corn market street but it was all backed up and not even moving for so I just went.

macraignil

namloc1980 wrote: »

The poster already stated that walking wasn't an option because they weren't prepared to walk in the rain. To me an extra hour sitting in the car versus a much quicker walk is no contest but it's not an option apparently.

I already explained my situation that you replied to. I share my commute with someone else who is against getting to work soaked to the skin on wet days. Also traveling home after a twenty minute hike in the rain would not be very enjoyable. While I don't appreciate the changes the city council has made to outlaw our normal travel route I still need to make the journey with the girlfriend as we are going to and from the same place. I'm quite aware from what you have said that you are oblivious to the weather but this does not mean this applies to everyone.

Frostybrew

The disruption over the last few days will decrease as people get used to the new arrangement and change their travel arrangements. The cause of the disruption is down to two types of reaction to the changes. The first reaction happens with people who weren't aware of the changes and had to suddenly change their routine, leading to confusion. The second reaction happens when people know about the changes, expect chaos and overcompensate, and choose an alternative route thats not suitable. When you multiply these reactions by several thousand it leads to driver behaviours that rapidly cause increased congestion.

The fact of the matter is that Patrick Street was not a heavily trafficked route before the changes, and the moving of private cars onto alternative routes is not enough to increase congestion. It's a change for the better.

People in this city need to realise that it's no longer a small town. It's a rapidly growing medium sized European city, and it's no longer possible for everyone to drive wherever they want, whenever they want; without heavily disruptive traffic congestion. It's physically not possible. A large scale modal shift needs to occur and the Patrick Street changes are a part of a plan to facilitate change.

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

The disruption over the last few days will decrease as people get used to the new arrangement and change their travel arrangements. The cause of the disruption is down to two types of reaction to the changes. The first reaction happens with people who weren't aware of the changes and had to suddenly change their routine, leading to confusion. The second reaction happens when people know about the changes, expect chaos and overcompensate, and choose an alternative route thats not suitable. When you multiply these reactions by several thousand it leads to driver behaviours that rapidly cause increased congestion.

The fact of the matter is that Patrick Street was not a heavily trafficked route before the changes, and the moving of private cars onto alternative routes is not enough to increase congestion. It's a change for the better.

People in this city need to realise that it's no longer a small town. It's a rapidly growing medium sized European city, and it's no longer possible for everyone to drive wherever they want, whenever they want; without heavily disruptive traffic congestion. It's physically not possible. A large scale modal shift needs to occur and the Patrick Street changes are a part of a plan to facilitate change.

I agree some of the gridlock could be down to the initial confusion like you are saying but I think its much more likely that the gridlock is down to the "plan" you refer to not facilitating the car traffic on other routes. The alternatives to Patrick Street have not been improved and if anything have been made worse as part of this "plan" which to me seems to simply be to make gridlock in the city so bad people are faster walking than using their car.

This is fine if you are in a nice sunny european city and you are lucky enough to live close to where you work. This does not apply to many and the lack of more park and ride facilities is an example of how poorly prepared this "plan" has been. I reckon its just going to get worse when the schools reopen after Easter break and parents need to drop their kids to school at the same time as traveling to work.

There was at one stage meant to be a north ring road to facilitate travel around the city without having to go into it. This has been left on the shelves for decades now and we are left with cheaper haphazard measures like closing the city streets to private cars to give the impression they are trying to improve the city when from what I can see they are just making it into a congested mess.

the beer revolu

macraignil wrote: »

There are no parking spaces on the north side of the city to allow for what you're suggesting but thanks for the suggestion.

That is a ridiculous statement. Have you looked?
I already gave one suggestion.

What you really mean is that no solution other than being able to drive to the door of your work place is acceptable to you.

I still contend that your hour extra commute is a gross exaggeration. In one post you said that what used to take 40 minutes now takes "about" an hour and a half. My maths makes that "about" 50 minutes.
Factor in the "about" and it could really be anything.

macraignil

the beer revolu wrote: »

That is a ridiculous statement. Have you looked?
I already gave one suggestion.

What you really mean is that no solution other than being able to drive to the door of your work place is acceptable to you.

I still contend that your hour extra commute is a gross exaggeration. In one post you said that what used to take 40 minutes now takes "about" an hour and a half. My maths makes that "about" 50 minutes.
Factor in the "about" and it could really be anything.

Gridlock is unpredictable in how much delay it causes from day to day. That is why I used the term "about".

You suggested going to the north cathedral to park for the entire work day every day of the week which I'm unsure the bishop would be too pleased about in case he might have visitors himself to facilitate. From the google maps picture it looks like there are just about 30 spaces which I'd imagine he would want free if they were having mass of some sort. Also the roads there are often gridlocked because of the way the city traffic is managed so while I appreciate you trying to help I'm not sure that suggestion would actually prove to be useful.

fin12

the beer revolu wrote: »

That is a ridiculous statement. Have you looked?
I already gave one suggestion.

What you really mean is that no solution other than being able to drive to the door of your work place is acceptable to you.

I still contend that your hour extra commute is a gross exaggeration. In one post you said that what used to take 40 minutes now takes "about" an hour and a half. My maths makes that "about" 50 minutes.
Factor in the "about" and it could really be anything.

The north cathedral wouldn’t be an option, I know a person that parks there, you pay the church for the car space for the year so all those spaces would be taken in advance.

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

I agree some of the gridlock could be down to the initial confusion like you are saying but I think its much more likely that the gridlock is down to the "plan" you refer to not facilitating the car traffic on other routes. The alternatives to Patrick Street have not been improved and if anything have been made worse as part of this "plan" which to me seems to simply be to make gridlock in the city so bad people are faster walking than using their car.

This is fine if you are in a nice sunny european city and you are lucky enough to live close to where you work. This does not apply to many and the lack of more park and ride facilities is an example of how poorly prepared this "plan" has been. I reckon its just going to get worse when the schools reopen after Easter break and parents need to drop their kids to school at the same time as traveling to work.

That would be the LUTS plan from 1978. It led to the creation of the South Link, The South Ring, The North Ring, Christy Ring Bridge, The Blackpool Bypass, and extensive widening of the quays. These are the alternatives to Patrick Street as it also recommended making Patrick Street more pedestrian friendly and an enhanced transport corridor.

So the alternatives are in fact in place. What hasn't been put in place are the improvements to public transport that was recommended by said plan, mainly due to a combination of vested interests and over the top negative public reaction.

There was an earlier plan in 1968 called the BKS report which recommended the creation of six urban dual carriageways bypassing the city centre. It would have led to the demolition of 17% of Cork City to accommodate the motor car. Is this the type of solution you would like?

Or have you a better suggestion? Or even any suggestion?

AugustusMinimus

Frostybrew wrote: »

That would be the LUTS plan from 1978. It led to the creation of the South Link, The South Ring, The North Ring, Christy Ring Bridge, The Blackpool Bypass, and extensive widening of the quays. These are the alternatives to Patrick Street as it also recommended making Patrick Street more pedestrian friendly and an enhanced transport corridor.

So the alternatives are in fact in place. What hasn't been put in place are the improvements to public transport that was recommended by said plan, mainly due to a combination of vested interests and over the top negative public reaction.

There was an earlier plan in 1968 called the BKS report which recommended the creation of six urban dual carriageways bypassing the city centre. It would have led to the demolition of 17% of Cork City to accommodate the motor car. Is this the type of solution you would like?

Or have you a better suggestion? Or even any suggestion?

North - South movements as I’ve said previously are constrained by river crossings and other topology issues.

The biggest problem is that the vast majority of river crossings are in the city centre, where there is a pedestrianism drive. This is why we are seeing such an effect on traffic.

Outside the city centre, there is no river crossing between Collins Bridge and the Tunnel. On the other end, there is no crossing between North Main Street and Shanakiel. The solution is new bridges in the Docklands which are planned and the Western Section of the North Ring Road. Better use of existing rail infrastructure is also needed. A park and ride North of Blackpool bringing people into the train station should be looked at.

Frostybrew

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

North - South movements as I’ve said previously are constrained by river crossings and other topology issues.

The biggest problem is that the vast majority of river crossings are in the city centre, where there is a pedestrianism drive. This is why we are seeing such an effect on traffic.

Outside the city centre, there is no river crossing between Collins Bridge and the Tunnel. On the other end, there is no crossing between North Main Street and Shanakiel. The solution is new bridges in the Docklands which are planned and the Western Section of the North Ring Road. Better use of existing rail infrastructure is also needed. A park and ride North of Blackpool bringing people into the train station should be looked at.

Yes these are all worthwhile proposals, and most of them are making some progress. I'd love to see the Blackpool/Kilbarry station progressed. It's an inexpensive solution and would reap considerable benefits.

The existing infrastructure can easily accommodate the Patrick street alterations. The elephant in the room is the general Irish population's attitude to public transport. Most people see it as a form of mobility social welfare for the marginalised, and not a viable alternative to commuting.

AugustusMinimus

Frostybrew wrote: »

Yes these are all worthwhile proposals, and most of them are making some progress. I'd love to see the Blackpool/Kilbarry station progressed. It's an inexpensive solution and would reap considerable benefits.

The existing infrastructure can easily accommodate the Patrick street alterations. The elephant in the room is the general Irish population's attitude to public transport. Most people see it as a form of mobility social welfare for the marginalised, and not a viable alternative to commuting.

There needs to be proper planning for public transport to work.

Dublin has seen shocking development along the M50 which has now shown to be very difficult to service with public transport.

All major developments in Cork should be done either along existing rail lines or along the potential BRT / Luas line from Mahon - City Centre - Ballincollig. This includes both commercial and high density housing developments.

Frostybrew

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There needs to be proper planning for public transport to work.

Dublin has seen shocking development along the M50 which has now shown to be very difficult to service with public transport.

All major developments in Cork should be done either along existing rail lines or along the potential BRT / Luas line from Mahon - City Centre - Ballincollig. This includes both commercial and high density housing developments.

Yes I totally agree. Luckily a great deal of the existing zoned land and future strategic land banks is along the Blarney to Midleton/Cobh rail corridor. With other areas such as Ballincollig and the docklands also featuring heavily in this respect.

Hopefully there will be further improvements to the bus network over the coming years. These have gathered pace over the last five years or so, the extension of the services in the Glanmire area is a good example. A lot more needed to be done though. Not just with the introduction and expansion of new routes, or the introduction of integrated ticketing. But basic stuff like timetables at bus stops, better advertising of service improvements, services running on time.

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

That would be the LUTS plan from 1978. It led to the creation of the South Link, The South Ring, The North Ring, Christy Ring Bridge, The Blackpool Bypass, and extensive widening of the quays. These are the alternatives to Patrick Street as it also recommended making Patrick Street more pedestrian friendly and an enhanced transport corridor.

So the alternatives are in fact in place. What hasn't been put in place are the improvements to public transport that was recommended by said plan, mainly due to a combination of vested interests and over the top negative public reaction.

There was an earlier plan in 1968 called the BKS report which recommended the creation of six urban dual carriageways bypassing the city centre. It would have led to the demolition of 17% of Cork City to accommodate the motor car. Is this the type of solution you would like?

Or have you a better suggestion? Or even any suggestion?

I made no mention of any LUTS plan. The section of my post that you omitted from your quote was not referring to the existing single lane road running from Silversprings to the Blackpool bypass road. I was referring to the plan to built a proper motorway linking the Ballincollig bypass to the Mallow road near Blackpool and on to the Glanmire section of motorway linking Cork and Dublin. It is detailed in the linked document.

The quays have in fact been made less effective at moving traffic in recent changes with much of them narrowed to only allow traffic in one direction.

You are being completely ignorant to the actual flow of traffic in the city if you believe the alternatives are already in place.

There are extra bridges planned that could help.

The suggestion by another poster of a park and ride facility to the north of the city is a good one. I would suggest that as well as facilitating a rail link to the station a link bus to the western side of the city could be part of this idea.

I'd also like to suggest that the trial of the closure of Patrick street to commuters in the evenings be abandoned as a failure at least until better alternative routes for commuters are put in place.

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

I made no mention of any LUTS plan. The section of my post that you omitted from your quote was not referring to the existing single lane road running from Silversprings to the Blackpool bypass road. I was referring to the plan to built a proper motorway linking the Ballincollig bypass to the Mallow road near Blackpool and on to the Glanmire section of motorway linking Cork and Dublin. It is detailed in the linked document.

The quays have in fact been made less effective at moving traffic in recent changes with much of them narrowed to only allow traffic in one direction.

You are being completely ignorant to the actual flow of traffic in the city if you believe the alternatives are already in place.

There are extra bridges planned that could help.

The suggestion by another poster of a park and ride facility to the north of the city is a good one. I would suggest that as well as facilitating a rail link to the station a link bus to the western side of the city could be part of this idea.

I'd also like to suggest that the trial of the closure of Patrick street to commuters in the evenings be abandoned as a failure at least until better alternative routes for commuters are put in place.

I'm well aware of the traffic flow in the city which is why it is necessary to mention the plan that these flows are based on. The only parts of the plan not implemented in full are those related to public transport. Which includes the bus and pedestrian priority measures which you are objecting to.

The link from the proposed Blackpool train station to the western side of the city is already in place. It just needs an improved timetable, and the station to reopen of course. Your M40 argument is a red herring as it just sends congestion elsewhere.

Which means the only other concrete suggestion you've made in this thread is to go backwards, and return to a clogged up Patrick street.

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

I'm well aware of the traffic flow in the city which is why it is necessary to mention the plan that these flows are based on. The only parts of the plan not implemented in full are those related to public transport. Which includes the bus and pedestrian priority measures which you are objecting to.

The link from the proposed Blackpool train station to the western side of the city is already in place. It just needs an improved timetable, and the station to reopen of course. Your M40 argument is a red herring as it just sends congestion elsewhere.

Which means the only other concrete suggestion you've made in this thread is to go backwards, and return to a clogged up Patrick street.

Creating gridlock is not moving forwards. As mentioned in other posts the actual volume of cars going through Patrick Street is not that big but by stopping them every evening it is adding to the gridlock being created by all of the changes in the city traffic management plan.

How can you simply label the north ring road as a red herring when the government have put serious resources into planning such an improvement to road infrastructure in the Cork area. The report I provided a link to claims a number of benefits for Cork:

"It is important at this stage to restate the objectives of the scheme as set out in Chapter
1 o
f this report, namely:
∑
To facilitate National Traffic Flows bypassing Cork City via the National
Primary Road Network, including the N20, N22, N8 and N25.
∑
To reduce traffic congestion towards the Northside and inner City Areas of
the City.
∑
To facilit
ate continued economic growth while ensuring a high level of
environmental protection.
∑
To alleviate existing and projected traffic utilising the Jack Lynch Tunnel
∑
To increase road safety and reduce fatalities and serious injuries
∑
To incorporate public
transportation or
“
Green Routes
”
within the design of
the project
∑
Completion of the Cork Ring Road network will improve access to both Cork
Airport and to Ringaskiddy Port via the N28"

I don't agree it would just send congestion elsewhere and what evidence do you have for this? How do you have so much more insight into the situation than the government officials that developed the plan for the north ring road?

How can you call a closed train station in Blackpool a realistic alternative for commuters?

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

Creating gridlock is not moving forwards. As mentioned in other posts the actual volume of cars going through Patrick Street is not that big but by stopping them every evening it is adding to the gridlock being created by all of the changes in the city traffic management plan.

So still no concrete proposals?

How can you simply label the north ring road as a red herring when the government have put serious resources into planning such an improvement to road infrastructure in the Cork area. I don't agree it would just send congestion elsewhere and what evidence do you have for this?

I suggest you Google "induced demand". The M40 will solve some issues, but a modal shift is more important to the issue we're discussing.

How can you call a closed train station in Blackpool a realistic alternative for commuters?

The general idea is that you reopen it. Anyway wasn't this a part of your suggestion? Are you disagreeing with yourself? You were suggesting a bus link from the station to the western suburbs?

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

So still no concrete proposals?



I suggest you Google "induced demand". The M40 will solve some issues, but a modal shift is more important to the issue we're discussing.



The general idea is that you reopen it. Anyway wasn't this a part of your suggestion? Are you disagreeing with yourself? You were suggesting a bus link from the station to the western suburbs?

I made a concrete proposal. Reverse the closing of Patrick Street to normal traffic. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it not a suggestion.

No amount of googling "induced demand" is going to make me a professional engineer which must have been consulted in the development of the city ring road plans.

I agree with the idea of a park and ride facility on the north side of the city. I'm just saying you are deluded if you think an idea is already an existing alternative for commuters before it is even put into practice.

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

I made a concrete proposal. Reverse the closing of Patrick Street to normal traffic. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it not a suggestion.

What you suggested is a knee jerk reaction, not a concrete proposal.

No amount of googling "induced demand" is going to make me a professional engineer which must have been consulted in the development of the city ring road plans. .

I've no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you please clarify?

I agree with the idea of a park and ride facility on the north side of the city. I'm just saying you are deluded if you think an idea is already an existing alternative for commuters before it is even put into practice.

This was not suggested, as evidenced by the use of the word "proposed". Are you now trying argue with non existent arguments?

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

What you suggested is a knee jerk reaction, not a concrete proposal.



I've no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you please clarify?



This was not suggested, as evidenced by the use of the word "proposed". Are you now trying argue with non existent arguments?

I don't agree with your description of what I have said as knee jerk.

The proposed north ring road was developed by the government with professional engineers to alleviate traffic congestion in the city. I would trust their judgement much more than I would trust yours. I don't know a simpler way to explain this.

You in a previous post said "The existing infrastructure can easily accommodate the Patrick street alterations."
This is clearly not true as shown by the gridlock in the recent week since the change. It will be worse when schools are back and no amount of saying everyone will have to change to public transport is going to make it possible for everyone to conform to this as some people need to make journeys not covered by public transport. This is the cause for my suggestion and the city council needs to rethink the closure of Patrick street or the city will be chocked in gridlock as it has been recently. I'm simply trying to say you are wrong and the existing infrastructure is completely inadequate for dealing with the Patrick Street alterations.

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

I don't agree with your description of what I have said as knee jerk.

The proposed north ring road was developed by the government with professional engineers to alleviate traffic congestion in the city. I would trust their judgement much more than I would trust yours. I don't know a simpler way to explain this.

You in a previous post said "The existing infrastructure can easily accommodate the Patrick street alterations."
This is clearly not true as shown by the gridlock in the recent week since the change. It will be worse when schools are back and no amount of saying everyone will have to change to public transport is going to make it possible for everyone to conform to this as some people need to make journeys not covered by public transport. This is the cause for my suggestion and the city council needs to rethink the closure of Patrick street or the city will be chocked in gridlock as it has been recently. I'm simply trying to say you are wrong and the existing infrastructure is completely inadequate for dealing with the Patrick Street alterations.

The Patrick street changes were also developed by professionals. Probably the same ones you're agreeing with. You trust their judgement.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Frostybrew wrote: »

The Patrick street changes were also developed by professionals. Probably the same ones you're agreeing with. You trust their judgement.

Which professionals?

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

The Patrick street changes were also developed by professionals. Probably the same ones you're agreeing with. You trust their judgement.

I'm not saying that all engineers are always correct in their assessment of something as complex as traffic flow. I'm just saying from what I have seen there has been some miscalculation on the ability of the alternative routes to take the traffic that needs to reroute from Patrick Street. The quays traffic was already bad every evening and now the Patric's street change has made this even worse. Traveling from the south west side of the city to get to the north seems completely unworkable with the current system. Perhaps improving the light sequence at the opera house might make a difference. It seems the traffic light on the north side of the bridge is always on red to traffic crossing the bridge when it is green for traffic from the west. I'm not sure how this sequence effects the other directions but the current system is not working on the route I would take if I can't go along Patrick street. I'd be happy to avoid driving on Patrick street if there was a working alternative.

Any amount of planning must play second fiddle to real life experience in my opinion and if something is not working it should be changed.

Frostybrew

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Which professionals?

I don't know them personally. Perhaps mac can enlighten us as he brought the issue into the thread.

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

I don't know them personally. Perhaps mac can enlighten us as he brought the issue into the thread.

Don't know them personnaly myself either. I just assumed the city planning office would employ some, but from what I've seen I could be wrong about that.

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

I'm not saying that all engineers are always correct in their assessment of something as complex as traffic flow. I'm just saying from what I have seen there has been some miscalculation on the ability of the alternative routes to take the traffic that needs to reroute from Patrick Street. The quays traffic was already bad every evening and now the Patric's street change has made this even worse. Traveling from the south west side of the city to get to the north seems completely unworkable with the current system. Perhaps improving the light sequence at the opera house might make a difference. It seems the traffic light on the north side of the bridge is always on red to traffic crossing the bridge when it is green for traffic from the west. I'm not sure how this sequence effects the other directions but the current system is not working on the route I would take if I can't go along Patrick street. I'd be happy to avoid driving on Patrick street if there was a working alternative.

Any amount of planning must play second fiddle to real life experience in my opinion and if something is not working it should be changed.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Traffic light sequence changes, that's a positive contribution. This could be an issue. It certainly was in the case of Pope's Quay where many were blaming the new cycle lane for congestion, when the culprit was actually the sequence of the lights at the junction of Shandon Street and North Gate bridge. It's a good thing the professionals didn't back track on the cycle lane as this area has really blossomed since it's creation.

I think four days is a bit early to decide if something is working or not, especially as people need time to adjust to the new arrangement. Once people fall into a routine again congestion should ease.

Frostybrew

macraignil wrote: »

Don't know them personnaly myself either. I just assumed the city planning office would employ some, but from what I've seen I could be wrong about that.

It's most likely a mixture of City and TII personnel as Patrick Street is officially designated a national route and would be under the remit of TII who are also responsible for the planning of the N(M)40.

Bus Eireann would also be consulted, as would the Gardai. Possibly the taxi regulator also.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Frostybrew wrote: »

I don't know them personally. Perhaps mac can enlighten us as he brought the issue into the thread.

You stated that pros were involved. So just asking you to say who they are?

macraignil

Frostybrew wrote: »

It's most likely a mixture of City and TFI personnel as Patrick Street is officially designated a national route and would be under the remit of TFI who are also responsible for the planning of the N(M)40.

Bus Eireann would also be consulted, as would the Gardai. Possibly the taxi regulator also.

I heard the Gardai were actually advising against the closure of Patrick street to normal traffic but were ignored.

macraignil

munstermagic11 wrote: »

You stated that pros were involved. So just asking you to say who they are?

When I brought in the idea of professional engineers to the thread it was in relation to the north ring road plan and the engineer's names are on the front of the linked document.

j8wk2feszrnpao

macraignil wrote: »

When I brought in the idea of professional engineers to the thread it was in relation to the north ring road plan and the engineer's names are on the front of the linked document.

Correct, that's why I asked Frostybrew who were the pros he cited that developed the Patrick St changes. I doubt it was the same ones that were involved in the North Ring.