New Metrolink - Southside route

thebeerbaron

Hello,

Following the release of the Metrolink route today: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/revealed-preferred-route-for-3bn-metrolink-from-city-centre-to-dublin-airport-unveiled-36732780.html
Could someone explain, if possible, why they are building a new route of transport under an existing form of transport and not out to new areas?
The stations on the new route south are already served by bus and more importantly the luas.
I would have expected that the new southside routes would better to serve areas that do not have :luas, limited transport to the city centre, transport to main train stations (both red and green luas lines do this), transport to north side (both red and green luas lines do this or to Dublin airport.

Why are areas with the luas now getting another transport service while other areas are not better served?

IE 222

thebeerbaron wrote: »

Hello,

Following the release of the Metrolink route today: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/revealed-preferred-route-for-3bn-metrolink-from-city-centre-to-dublin-airport-unveiled-36732780.html
Could someone explain, if possible, why they are building a new route of transport under an existing form of transport and not out to new areas?
The stations on the new route south are already served by bus and more importantly the luas.
I would have expected that the new southside routes would better to serve areas that do not have :luas, limited transport to the city centre, transport to main train stations (both red and green luas lines do this), transport to north side (both red and green luas lines do this or to Dublin airport.

Why are areas with the luas now getting another transport service while other areas are not better served?

The new Metro will come above ground and run on the current LUAS line which will need to be upgraded as well.

This is the cheap option while still receiving all the glorified attention.

Also baffling is that they expect to build it for €3 billion, the same amount Dart Underground was expected to cost while been nearly 20km shorter.

lifeandtimes

does seem a bit stingy alright.

Hopefullythey answer that question.

Also why a capacity of 30k an hour?

When will there ever been a need to ship 30 k people to swords etc?

thebeerbaron

Thank

IE 222 wrote: »

thebeerbaron wrote: »

Hello,

Following the release of the Metrolink route today: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/revealed-preferred-route-for-3bn-metrolink-from-city-centre-to-dublin-airport-unveiled-36732780.html
Could someone explain, if possible, why they are building a new route of transport under an existing form of transport and not out to new areas?
The stations on the new route south are already served by bus and more importantly the luas.
I would have expected that the new southside routes would better to serve areas that do not have :luas, limited transport to the city centre, transport to main train stations (both red and green luas lines do this), transport to north side (both red and green luas lines do this or to Dublin airport.

Why are areas with the luas now getting another transport service while other areas are not better served?

The new Metro will come above ground and run on the current LUAS line which will need to be upgraded as well.

This is the cheap option while still receiving all the glorified attention.

Also baffling is that they expect to build it for €3 billion, the same amount Dart Underground was expected to cost while been nearly 20km shorter.

you for the reply, I was not aware that it will run on the existing line. Begs the question what amount of analysis was carried out for the long term demand of the green line, which if I am not mistaken is open less than 15 years?
Considering the new longer luas trams were just removed from service I am doubtful this new metro will run at the speed advertised.

IE 222

thebeerbaron wrote: »

Thank

you for the reply, I was not aware that it will run on the existing line. Begs the question what amount of analysis was carried out for the long term demand of the green line, which if I am not mistaken is open less than 15 years?
Considering the new longer luas trams were just removed from service I am doubtful this new metro will run at the speed advertised.

Well they were way of the mark with Cross City journey times and Im pretty sure it was reported they announced them journey times knowing they wouldn't be reached.

It all boils down to politics, cutting corners and hiring non experts that never uses public transport.

Its shocking to think only a couple of weeks ago we were sold the stroy of how good the new Luas system is and what a great addition to the city it will be. This plan now expects people travelling from say Leopardstown to Dawson st. to use 3 different trams.

thebeerbaron

IE 222 wrote: »

thebeerbaron wrote: »

Thank

you for the reply, I was not aware that it will run on the existing line. Begs the question what amount of analysis was carried out for the long term demand of the green line, which if I am not mistaken is open less than 15 years?
Considering the new longer luas trams were just removed from service I am doubtful this new metro will run at the speed advertised.

Well they were way of the mark with Cross City journey times and Im pretty sure it was reported they announced them journey times knowing they wouldn't be reached.

It all boils down to politics, cutting corners and hiring non experts that never uses public transport.

Its shocking to think only a couple of weeks ago we were sold the stroy of how good the new Luas system is and what a great addition to the city it will be. This plan now expects people travelling from say Leopardstown to Dawson st. to use 3 different trams.

yes from what I am reading here in NYC the new cross city is a disaster. Apparently it is faster to walk in the city centre from stephens green to henry street.

donvito99

thebeerbaron wrote: »

Hello,

Following the release of the Metrolink route today: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/revealed-preferred-route-for-3bn-metrolink-from-city-centre-to-dublin-airport-unveiled-36732780.html
Could someone explain, if possible, why they are building a new route of transport under an existing form of transport and not out to new areas?

They are not doing this.

The stations on the new route south are already served by bus and more importantly the luas.

So is Bray. Why bother with Dart.

I would have expected that the new southside routes would better to serve areas that do not have :luas, limited transport to the city centre, transport to main train stations (both red and green luas lines do this), transport to north side (both red and green luas lines do this or to Dublin airport.

It will cost €500m to potentially triple the capacity of the former Harcourt St line.

Would €500m even get to Harold's Cross?

EDIT: I understand the cost is somewhere in the region of €90 - €120m.

Why are areas with the luas now getting another transport service while other areas are not better served?

Because it was designed with Metro in mind, and it would be criminal not to upgrade a former heavy rail alignment to Metro.

tabbey

donvito99 wrote: »

it would be criminal not to upgrade a former heavy rail alignment to Metro.

It was criminal to sacrifice the heavy rail alignment in the first instance.

The Harcourt St line with convenient access to an underground line in the city centre and inner suburbs, would have been an excellent addition to the infrastructure of the Dublin area.

donvito99

tabbey wrote: »

It was criminal to sacrifice the heavy rail alignment in the first instance.

The Harcourt St line with convenient access to an underground line in the city centre and inner suburbs, would have been an excellent addition to the infrastructure of the Dublin area.

Which was the original plan, fudged to Luas which some here would rather protect.

tabbey

donvito99 wrote: »

Which was the original plan, fudged to Luas which some here would rather protect.

Unfortunately the light rail LUAS running zig-zag through the suburbs was never going to be a substitute for the superb heavy rail suburban rail route that should have been reinstitated for the benefit of the travelling public between Dundrum and Greystones.

bk

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Also why a capacity of 30k an hour?

When will there ever been a need to ship 30 k people to swords etc?

It won't open with that capacity, most likely 15k an hour. But will have the ability for future expansion.

That is important, tunnels are expensive. The first London Underground tunnel was built 150 years ago and is still in use today. You want to leave breathing room for future increases.

thebeerbaron wrote: »

Thank

you for the reply, I was not aware that it will run on the existing line. Begs the question what amount of analysis was carried out for the long term demand of the green line, which if I am not mistaken is open less than 15 years?
Considering the new longer luas trams were just removed from service I am doubtful this new metro will run at the speed advertised.

The Luas green line was always built with a future upgrade to Metro in mind, that is why it has more space between tracks then the red line, for wider Metro trains. This is why the upgrade to Metro is so relatively low and it is an easy and sensible option.

MGWR

Twenty minutes from city centre to DUB? That's an average speed of less than 19 mph.

Never mind the average cost of €186 million per mile.

Charles Babbage

They should run the tunnel under Charlemont and out to Belfield where it could emerge. Then provide southside buses to Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Bray from there.

bk

MGWR wrote: »

Twenty minutes from city centre to DUB? That's an average speed of less than 19 mph.

Never mind the average cost of €186 million per mile.

Same speed as the DART so. Most Metros and undergrounds in Europe are about the same. It is the stops at frequent stations that slow them down.

As for the cost, not unusual for an underground. e.g. The Berlin U55 cost $400 million per mile. The Paris Metro Line 14 cost $368 million per mile.

tabbey

MGWR wrote: »

Twenty minutes from city centre to DUB? That's an average speed of less than 19 mph.

Never mind the average cost of €186 million per mile.

The average cost per mile is made up by a small cost per mile for conversion of the existing Green line to Sandyford, and a much higher cost per mile for the new build underground.

Charles Babbage

Whatever about Dunville Ave, how are they going to grade separate the St Raphaels junction at the Stillorgan station? Bad planning here to have had this, they could have sunk the Luas when it was being built and they would not have had a problem now.

tabbey

bk wrote: »

As for the cost, not unusual for an underground. e.g. The Berlin U55 cost $400 million per mile. The Paris Metro Line 14 cost $368 million per mile.

Berlin U55 is probably not the best comparison as it is ultra short, going under Berlin HBf and the historic pre-wall centre.

Is it being extended?

griffinlee

is there a detailed map of it available yet? I would like to see the exact route its going under in particular around the northside . the one thats mentioned above from the article doesn't have that type of detail

MAJJ

IE 222 wrote: »

Its shocking to think only a couple of weeks ago we were sold the stroy of how good the new Luas system is and what a great addition to the city it will be. This plan now expects people travelling from say Leopardstown to Dawson st. to use 3 different trams.

This piece was the bit that shocked me yesterday the number of changes for a basic commuter journey from south side to city.

Okon

Call me a cynic, but I'll believe in this actual routing when I see it. The northern part of this Metro line is exciting, the south of the city part - and what it could mean for some commuters - not so much so. I expect changes before planning approval.

bk

griffinlee wrote: »

is there a detailed map of it available yet? I would like to see the exact route its going under in particular around the northside . the one thats mentioned above from the article doesn't have that type of detail

Check out http://www.metrolink.ie Thousands of pages of detailed plans there.

Though some might change with the upcoming public consultation, it should give you a general idea of what is being planned.

Markcheese

MAJJ wrote: »

This piece was the bit that shocked me yesterday the number of changes for a basic commuter journey from south side to city.

Well its just one transport line..
It can't go from everywhere to everywhere direct,
But the more interchanges and inter modal changes the better... (In my mind)

MGWR

bk wrote: »

Same speed as the DART so. Most Metros and undergrounds in Europe are about the same. It is the stops at frequent stations that slow them down

Chicago's Blue Line has an average speed of 22 mph from the Loop to O'Hare Airport, and it comprises both the newest and some of the oldest (dating to 1895) segments of the CTA system.

Local stations on the NYC subway can be just 1,000 feet apart, and they are still capable of average speeds of around 17-18 mph even with extended dwell times and the age of the infrastructure dating to the first world war. Something tells me that the distance between the Mater and Glasnevin stations is going to be greater than 1,000 feet, but not so great as to excuse an average speed under 19 mph.

bk wrote: »

As for the cost, not unusual for an underground. e.g. The Berlin U55 cost $400 million per mile. The Paris Metro Line 14 cost $368 million per mile.

It's unusual due to the minimisation of underground segments so planned.

And of course, due to not being in DART format, no potential to join up onto the Northern Line past Estuary.

Seanmk1

Just had a quick look at the drawings. Am I right in assuming that they want to dig up College Green and Upper O'Connell Street again for new stations?

bk

MGWR wrote: »

Chicago's Blue Line has an average speed of 22 mph from the Loop to O'Hare Airport, and it comprises both the newest and some of the oldest (dating to 1895) segments of the CTA system.

Local stations on the NYC subway can be just 1,000 feet apart, and they are still capable of average speeds of around 17-18 mph even with extended dwell times and the age of the infrastructure dating to the first world war. Something tells me that the distance between the Mater and Glasnevin stations is going to be greater than 1,000 feet, but not so great as to excuse an average speed under 19 mph.It's unusual due to the minimisation of underground segments so planned.

Nothing to do with the age of lines/technology. Simply the limitations of dwell times at each station, how faster people can safely get on/off the train.

Remember MetroLink isn't just an express station going to the airport. It has lots of stops along the way, most only 1km between each:

Tara to O'Connell St - 600m
OCS to Mater - 900m
Mater to Whitworth Road - 700m
Whitworth Road to Na Fianna - 1.2km
N Fianna to DCU - 1.2km
DCU to Ballymun - 900m
Ballymun to Northwood - 1km
Northwood to Dardistown (future station p+r) - 960m
Dardistown to The Airport - 1.5km

MGWR wrote: »

And of course, due to not being in DART format, no potential to join up onto the Northern Line past Estuary.

In future the Metro can be extended to the Northern line and interchange there.

Seanmk1 wrote: »

Just had a quick look at the drawings. Am I right in assuming that they want to dig up College Green and Upper O'Connell Street again for new stations?

College Green? nope, no station there. Upper O'Connel St, yes, along with area behind Tara St and Stephens Green East.

salmocab

MAJJ wrote: »

This piece was the bit that shocked me yesterday the number of changes for a basic commuter journey from south side to city.

Well if you board outside Sandyford it’s one change or if from Sandyford in its no change to get to the City Centre

cgcsb

thebeerbaron wrote: »

yes from what I am reading here in NYC the new cross city is a disaster. Apparently it is faster to walk in the city centre from stephens green to henry street.

it isn't at all, some brit rag printed that the week that the Irish government was playing hardball with the UK over Brexit. They usually do a 'ah look at stupid paddy' piece whenever these issues come up and seldom ever mention anything about Ireland otherwise.

cgcsb

IE 222 wrote: »

Well they were way of the mark with Cross City journey times and Im pretty sure it was reported they announced them journey times knowing they wouldn't be reached.

It all boils down to politics, cutting corners and hiring non experts that never uses public transport.

Its shocking to think only a couple of weeks ago we were sold the stroy of how good the new Luas system is and what a great addition to the city it will be. This plan now expects people travelling from say Leopardstown to Dawson st. to use 3 different trams.

luas build was perfect. DCC failed to implement it's previously agreed traffic restrictions to accommodate luas. After metro opens a Leopardstown-Dawson st journey will be completed with one change at Sandyford and one 100m walk from Stephen's green station to Dawson st.

cgcsb

MGWR wrote: »

Twenty minutes from city centre to DUB? That's an average speed of less than 19 mph.

Never mind the average cost of €186 million per mile.

Well no, it'd be 28 miles per hour or 45km per hour give or take. How fast would you have a multi-stop urban rail system travel?

cgcsb

Seanmk1 wrote: »

Just had a quick look at the drawings. Am I right in assuming that they want to dig up College Green and Upper O'Connell Street again for new stations?

No planned station at College Green. There will be big digs at all station sites.