NTA's 3bn Underground Metro Plan Unveiled

GerardKeating

Stephen15 wrote: »

I guarantee if you ran a train every hour from Galway to Limerick with a journey time of 1h30 then it would be more attractive than the bus and in some cases the car.

Sadly that is not possible with the slow line speed and single track and meandering route.

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

The Danish government did not decide to build a Metro 1992. In fact they were in a fairly similar predicament to our government at the time initially three different ideas were explored a Metro, light rail and a tramway. In 1994 the Danish went for a Metro whereas we went for a tramway in the Luas.

The plan is to begin construction of MetroLink in 2021 with a completion date of 2027. Not begin the construction in 2027. The most economic time to build as Metro is asap as prices are going to keep going up and up over time. The Dublin economy will have already peaked if we don't build the Metro. We can't go back to the 1950s to build a Metro as much as we would like to.

One of the most expensive cities in the world Sydney has just completed it's first metro and is in testing at the moment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Metro

That is nonsense the first s-train line in Copenhagen started in 1934 with the railway boom being from 1934 to 1950. The first Metro line did not open until 2002.

I really don't have much thought for the Copenhagen transport system and couldn't care much for it. What works over there doesn't mean it will work for us.

Ok 1994 if you insist. Still a 30 year gap.

Were you not arguing economic costs remain the same over the years due to inflation, why a sudden change on that belief when it comes to MN.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

We didn't have a need for a metro 40 or 50 years ago

We did.

Unfortunately we were so obsessed by restoring the Irish language, glorifying the patriots of 1916, and claiming to be a wonderful country recovering from 700 years of occupation, that we did not bother to build the infrastructure that was needed by the late 1960s.

The same self misperception was at the root of our industrial schools, magdalen laundries and other oppressive features of our national psyche.

It was only after joining the EU in 1973, that Irish people started, very slowly, to cop on to our backward condition.

IE 222

bk wrote: »

BTW Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, they begun building their Metro in 2014, with completion due in 2019. 6 lines, damn impressive.

Doha, Quatar, construction of 3 Metro lines begun 2013, to start opening in 2019, finishing by 2026.

I'm sure if you look around the Middle East and Asia you will find plenty more examples in the new and upcoming cities.

Jayus, middle east now.

Qatar, World Cup ring a bell.

Saudi, the oil they have will buy you anything. Saudi Arabia in general are going through a massive transformation in the way they do things. Still not an expensive place to be building metros.

Plenty of cheap labour around them parts of the world also. Pretty sure Qatar were found guilty of exploiting foreign workers recently enough.

IE 222

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't need much land to build underground metros, labour was not 'cheap' in Denmark at the time of construction.

You need to buy up a considerable amount of land and cover the cost of repairing the land you dig up or alter. Dont be fooled in thinking MN won't be coming with hefty price tag for land purchases and altercations ON TOP of the €3bn.

Now im not claiming to be an expert in Danish economics so feel free to correct me but id imagine it was cheaper in 1992 than it is now.

IE 222

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Please stop with this fallacy that these were cheap to build back in the day, they were always and will always be expensive to build (when you adjust for inflation)

What about deflation as well. General Labour was cheap, people were sent to work in awful conditions for pittance. There was no H&S expenses back then. Im not saying it wasn't costly to build but it was well affordable to build them back then.

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

They should spend more money on the railway network instead of building motorways. Rail investment is cheaper and more sustainable. Everyone talks about the Western Rail Corridor being a disaster when it's only been a disaster due to infrequent trains and slow line speeds. I guarantee if you ran a train every hour from Galway to Limerick with a journey time of 1h30 then it would be more attractive than the bus and in some cases the car.

Do you listen to yourself at all.

You say DART is to expensive but WRC is cheap.

Stephen15

IE 222 wrote: »

I really don't have much thought for the Copenhagen transport system and couldn't care much for it. What works over there doesn't mean it will work for us.

Ok 1994 if you insist. Still a 30 year gap.

Were you not arguing economic costs remain the same over the years due to inflation, why a sudden change on that belief when it comes to MN.

Complete and utter nonsense your arguments get worse with every argument you try to make.

Your basically saying that we shouldn't build a Metro because it was cheaper to it build back in the day even though we clearly need one which being highlighted by the current bus and Luas issues. You make the usual that's them and this is us arguments that just make no sense when what they do with their public transport system is clearly much better and more efficient than ours.

You should enlighten us on your 5bn Dart expenditure and how it's better than spending 3bn on Metro and 2bn on DART expansion.

Shedite27

cgcsb wrote: »

Shedite27 wrote: »

Again, not the point I'm making. The poster said we shouldn't develop motorways apart from to and from Dublin and all the money should be spent on Dublin metros.

I'm being realistic that you can't have metros for Limerick and Galway, so a motorway is better than a national road (safer, faster etc.)

Do you've a better idea for those cities?

Yes I do have a better idea. Their cores should be rejuvenated, made attractive places to live and redeveloped at high density where possible. Their centres should be bedecked with high quality bus and cycling infrastructure. Then people wont be driving from rural abodes miles away on expensive motorways, they will just live in compact, walkable cities, with a few short hops on buses and a few spins on the bike.

so we all move inside the m50 and live happily ever after? Give up on the other 99% of the country? Sounds like a plan

Stephen15

IE 222 wrote: »

Do you listen to yourself at all.

You say DART is to expensive but WRC is cheap.

I never said it was cheap I said it would be cheaper than underused motorways in rural areas.

ricimaki

IE 222 wrote: »

Do you listen to yourself at all.

On this thread, I think that statement applies to you more than anyone else. You've disregarding all examples of modern metro's for quite frankly stupid reasons, and your only major counter argument is DARTs are just better.

Take a look through this list (sort it by year opened, newest first) Can you explain to us why all of these cities should have chosen DARTs over metro systems, but chose not to? The fact that China, a county that can more than afford to built large infrastructure projects, chose Metro systems over large commuter rail in cities several times the size of Dublin speaks volumes to me

Shedite27

Stephen15 wrote: »

Shedite27 wrote: »

Again, not the point I'm making. The poster said we shouldn't develop motorways apart from to and from Dublin and all the money should be spent on Dublin metros.

I'm being realistic that you can't have metros for Limerick and Galway, so a motorway is better than a national road (safer, faster etc.)

Do you've a better idea for those cities?

They should spend more money on the railway network instead of building motorways. Rail investment is cheaper and more sustainable. Everyone talks about the Western Rail Corridor being a disaster when it's only been a disaster due to infrequent trains and slow line speeds. I guarantee if you ran a train every hour from Galway to Limerick with a journey time of 1h30 then it would be more attractive than the bus and in some cases the car.

I'm as big a fan of rail as anyone but unless it’s going from a place that people don’t need cars, to a place that people don’t need cars, it’s not realistic. Ireland’s sprawl means the majority of folk outside Dublin need a car to get to a train station, and one at the other side.

Fro my experience, life outside Dublin is a lot more akin to the American style “drive to a business park on the suburbs” than the London style “get a tube from your apartment to your office.

You have to build to your countries requirements. Dublin needs metros to a city core. Limerick/Galway needs motorways to business parks

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense your arguments get worse with every argument you try to make.

Your basically saying that we shouldn't build a Metro because it was cheaper to it build back in the day even though we clearly need one which being highlighted by the current bus and Luas issues. You make the usual that's them and this is us arguments that just make no sense when what they do with their public transport system is clearly much better and more efficient than ours.

You should enlighten us on your 5bn Dart expenditure and how it's better than spending 3bn on Metro and 2bn on DART expansion.

Says the man who wants an hourly service on the WRC, FFS.

No thats not what I'm saying all. What im saying there is greater potential and less future spending to be done by investing in Dart that will effectively do the same job as MN and before you suggest it, No im purposing running Dart througb the Metro tunnel.

Yeah, well surely we should be coping the Germans system if anyone. If BK hadn't said anything about Copenhagen you wouldn't be aware off it.

Already have many times for you at this stage but its very obvious you don't read posts fully or correctly as you always reply with incorrect use of phases and rewording posts to fit your own belief.

IE 222

Shedite27 wrote: »

so we all move inside the m50 and live happily ever after? Give up on the other 99% of the country? Sounds like a plan

Dont worry. Metro will fix everything.

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

I never said it was cheap I said it would be cheaper than underused motorways in rural areas.

What under used railways.

Stephen15

IE 222 wrote: »

What under used railways.

A single track railway is cheaper to build than a two lane motorway both would be under used anyway and neither are more nessecary than Metrolink. Anyway it's off topic from the point of this thread which is Metrolink not Motorways or WRC.

Zebra3

IE 222 wrote: »

You need to buy up a considerable amount of land and cover the cost of repairing the land you dig up or alter. Dont be fooled in thinking MN won't be coming with hefty price tag for land purchases and altercations ON TOP of the €3bn.

Now im not claiming to be an expert in Danish economics so feel free to correct me but id imagine it was cheaper in 1992 than it is now.

Cheaper as in the figure maybe. But allowing for inflation and that money is loaned at much lower rates than a few decades ago, not necessarily in real terms.

Anyway the figure that today’s metro cost should be compared to isn’t the price of the same build when McQaid was hand puppeting FF-FG, but the return that will be delivered.

IE 222

ricimaki wrote: »

On this thread, I think that statement applies to you more than anyone else. You've disregarding all examples of modern metro's for quite frankly stupid reasons, and your only major counter argument is DARTs are just better.

Take a look through this list (sort it by year opened, newest first) Can you explain to us why all of these cities should have chosen DARTs over metro systems, but chose not to? The fact that China, a county that can more than afford to built large infrastructure projects, chose Metro systems over large commuter rail in cities several times the size of Dublin speaks volumes to me

How did I disregard them for stupid reasons. Metros work brilliantly in other cities were multiple routes connect between each other. While here in dublin on the present day we are suffering major congestion problems that need adjusting now not in 10 years time.

Can you not foresee that if traffic is as bad as it is now what it will be like in 10 years. Do you honestly believe 1 metro line is going to make any difference, remember 50% of the route is already served by rail. How many metro lines do you envison would be needed to make any real impact, then remind yourself how many years this metro will take to build and how many years it will take till they even start talking about a second one. The bulk of the crippling traffic is trying to get inside the M50 ring where does Metro address this in your view.

We can't afford to spend the next 20 - 35 years playing around with fancy tunnels to make an impression. Dart already has 50% of the network in place. Spend the €5bn on completely the rest of it rather than literally pissing it down a hole. Think of the bigger longer term costs of Metro.

Zebra3

It’s a new metro line, upgrade of part of the Luas network and the DARTification of two rail lines into the city that are currently massively under used.

ricimaki

IE 222 wrote: »

How did I disregard them for stupid reasons. Metros work brilliantly in other cities were multiple routes connect between each other. While here in dublin on the present day we are suffering major congestion problems that need adjusting now not in 10 years time.

Your comments regarding several systems people gave to you as example:
"I really don't have much thought for the Copenhagen transport system and couldn't care much for it. What works over there doesn't mean it will work for us."
"Jayus, middle east now.
Qatar, World Cup ring a bell.
Saudi, the oil they have will buy you anything. Saudi Arabia in general are going through a massive transformation in the way they do things. Still not an expensive place to be building metros."
The only thing Dublin can hope for in the short term is improved bus services. All upgrades to the DART system (including level crossing changes and electrification) will have to go through the same consultation and planning process Metrolink is going through at the moment, even if the construction time is less.

Can you not foresee that if traffic is as bad as it is now what it will be like in 10 years. Do you honestly believe 1 metro line is going to make any difference, remember 50% of the route is already served by rail. How many metro lines do you envison would be needed to make any real impact, then remind yourself how many years this metro will take to build and how many years it will take till they even start talking about a second one. The bulk of the crippling traffic is trying to get inside the M50 ring where does Metro address this in your view.

We can't afford to spend the next 20 - 35 years playing around with fancy tunnels to make an impression. Dart already has 50% of the network in place. Spend the €5bn on completely the rest of it rather than literally pissing it down a hole. Think of the bigger longer term costs of Metro.

Nobody is suggesting a single metro line will solve all of Dublin's transport woes, but it will improve it. The P&R at Esturay will reduce some cars coming in from the M1, as will the stations in Swords. Upgrading the Green line capacity will also take more cars from the south of the city off of the road, as the people should now be able to board the next train within 2 minutes, and not have to wait for several full ones to go past.

daheff

bk wrote: »

No it isn't an extension of the green line, it is a fantastic new rail line through the heart of our city. From Swords to the airport and through the city.

The Green line part is jsut a very nice and very cheap way of increasing the capacity of the Green line by four fold.

Any other alternative route would cost in the region of a billion extra or more.

But its on the same line as a large portion the green line.

so it is an extension of the green line.

Any sense would have this line intersect on one or two stops, but follow a different route to increase catchment area.

bk

daheff wrote: »

But its on the same line as a large portion the green line.

so it is an extension of the green line.

The vast majority of the line, between Swords and Ranelagh is new line and underground. The new sections by far are greater then Ranelagh to Sandymount section and also by far represent the majority of the cost.

Also the fact that Metro will completely replace Luas trams on the Ranelagh to Sandymount with Metro ones, with significant changes to platforms.

Finally, the fact that the Green Luas line will continue to exist, but now serving different sections.

Non of that would be called an extension! More a part of an old line being subsumed into a new bigger, upgraded line.

This sort of change is pretty common throughout Europe. No one calls it an extension.

daheff wrote: »

Any sense would have this line intersect on one or two stops, but follow a different route to increase catchment area.

Would cost way more. The point of this is that it is a cheap and relatively easy capacity upgrade. An alternative routing would involve far more underground sections and stations which would massively ramp up cost, probably at least another 1 to 2 billion.

I do think we will eventually get a new North East to South West line or something like that, but it will need to be a separate project.

Chris_5339762

bk wrote: »

Non of that would be called an extension! More a part of an old line being subsumed into a new bigger, upgraded line.

...which is what irriates me. There is already a line there south of Charlemont! Put a new line somewhere else and serve people currently not already served. To upgrade a current line to higher capacity when there are swathes of Dublin without public transport is nonsensical.

Build the southern part on a different alignment. Where, I don't know, but somewhere that isn't served well at the moment.

tobsey

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

...which is what irriates me. There is already a line there south of Charlemont! Put a new line somewhere else and serve people currently not already served. To upgrade a current line to higher capacity when there are swathes of Dublin without public transport is nonsensical.

Build the southern part on a different alignment. Where, I don't know, but somewhere that isn't served well at the moment.

There are three options:

Swords to town via airport: €2.9bn
Swords to Sandyford via airport and town: €3bn
Swords to some other Southside location via town and airport: €5.8bn (assuming the tunnel is as long and expensive south of the Liffey as north)

Now which seems like the best value for money?

bk

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

...which is what irriates me. There is already a line there south of Charlemont! Put a new line somewhere else and serve people currently not already served. To upgrade a current line to higher capacity when there are swathes of Dublin without public transport is nonsensical.

Build the southern part on a different alignment. Where, I don't know, but somewhere that isn't served well at the moment.

Sure, you have an extra billion or two to give us so to do that?

And even if you did that, you would still want to upgrade the Green line too, since it makes complete sense to do so. The Green line is now at capacity, 10's of thousands of more apartments are being built along it and it was originally designed to be easily and cheaply upgraded to Metro.

The Green line upgrade is a cheap and sensible upgrade, just like the 200 million they spent lengthening the DART platforms to take longer, 8 carriage DARTs was a sensible capacity upgrade.

Stephen15

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

...which is what irriates me. There is already a line there south of Charlemont! Put a new line somewhere else and serve people currently not already served. To upgrade a current line to higher capacity when there are swathes of Dublin without public transport is nonsensical.

Build the southern part on a different alignment. Where, I don't know, but somewhere that isn't served well at the moment.

I think people are a little misinformed here. The green line South of Charlemount will effectively no longer exist. Its not like there will be Luas and Metro running on the Green Line hence serving the area by two different transport modes. The green line is being replaced by Metro.

Other areas are already being covered by DART extensions to Kildare, Balbriggan and Maynooth as well as Bus Connects by this transport plan. Its all well and good to say serve other areas but that would make the project cost more and drive down the likelihood of it happening.

salmocab

If it was a straight choice between building the metro and upgrading the green line from Charlemont to sandyford at the same time or leaving the green line alone and building the metro straight through (underground) to say rathfarnham then the second choice would be better but its not, the extra cost would be massive so we are hopefully getting the best we can hope for with the cash thats likely to be available.
Although I realise the southern part may not have the density of people that a metro would need.

Stephen15

salmocab wrote: »

If it was a straight choice between building the metro and upgrading the green line from Charlemont to sandyford at the same time or leaving the green line alone and building the metro straight through (underground) to say rathfarnham then the second choice would be better but its not, the extra cost would be massive so we are hopefully getting the best we can hope for with the cash thats likely to be available.
Although I realise the southern part may not have the density of people that a metro would need.

You could put in place a high frequency shuttle bus between Dundrum Metro stop and Rarhfarnham. You could have it run every 10 mins between the two destinations.

mfceiling

So prime time tonight has an oul lad arguing that the Metro is too expensive and the bus is quicker.
Let's not bother investing for the future in dublin and sure we'll see how it goes.

Chris_5339762

Stephen15 wrote: »

You could put in place a high frequency shuttle bus between Dundrum Metro stop and Rarhfarnham. You could have it run every 10 mins between the two destinations.

It would have to be very well prioritised, far better than anything that is there now. People will drive into town if that link to the metro isn't very, very quick and seamless. Much quicker and far more seamless than anything we've done so far.

salmocab

Stephen15 wrote: »

You could put in place a high frequency shuttle bus between Dundrum Metro stop and Rarhfarnham. You could have it run every 10 mins between the two destinations.

That would only address one or two places and not the whole route though. I imagine if the metro is built there will be quite a few bus routes designed to feed into it from surrounding areas

n.os90

Back when the Luas was built in the mid 00's I remember saying to people, "what is the purpose of this?" It felt like a statement that we were modernizing as a country, but for many years it only served as a way for people to travel to Tallaght and Dundrum Town Centre. If you were lucky enough to live along the line, it served as a great way to get into the City Centre, but the large majority of Dublin had no use for it. In recent years our population has grown, and many people are traveling from the outskirts of Dublin to these park-and-rides located along some of the busiest and congested areas of the m50, only to add to the number of traffic jams clogging up this ring road around Dublin.

I never understood the Luas and why they joined the two lines together after a few years. This was a complete afterthought, and now we have these silly little trams rattling around the city-center, causing traffic congestion as a result of bad planning. That said, its done now and it should be left alone. What I can't for the life of me understand is why they want to dig up the Green Line again. I get it, there are lots of wealthy Fianna Gael supporters living along this line, but what about the rest of us. What about all the people traveling from Wicklow and Wexford who can't get to Dublin in less than 2 hours during peak times? What about all the people in West Dublin stuck on a rubbish train and bus service? What about all the people traveling to Dublin every day from Kildare and Meath with nothing but a commuter train to force them out of the car? The only solution to Dublin's congestion problems is a proper underground metro system. Forget about joining it up with the Luas. Spend the money on a proper underground metro system serving the outer city with large Park and Rides located away from the busiest areas of the M50. Yes, it will cost a lot of money, but upgrading the Luas is not the solution and who really cares about it being integrated? All people really care about is getting into the city fast. If they have to walk 10 minutes to another line then so be it. I think West Dublin badly needs a metro along with the current proposed North Metro Route. South Dublin has sealed its fate with the Luas. It will never work, even if it is upgraded. Any frequent rail line, traveling above ground in a busy city is bound for failure. I travel from Wexford every day and I wouldn't dream of using the Luas from Bray every day unless they built a huge park and ride and extended the length of the trams dramatically. They won't be able to do this without turning most of the roads in South Dublin into Cul-de-Sacs, but funnily enough, this is what they are planning for Ranelagh. Disaster.

AlmightyCushion

They are digging up the green line, the green line is staying largely intact as metro trains run on the same tracks as the luas. The green line was built with upgrading to metro standard in mind. It's only costing about €100m to upgrade which would get you feck all if you decided to spend that on another metro line.

The only solution to Dublin's congestion problems is a proper underground metro system. Forget about joining it up with the Luas. Spend the money on a proper underground metro system serving the outer city with large Park and Rides located away from the busiest areas of the M50.

They are doing that. The metro is going out to Swords and they are adding park and rides out there as well.

As for the rubbish trains and buses. €2B is being spent on DART upgrades and €1B is being spent on bus infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong I want to see more metro lines in Dublin. I'd like that to happen right now but realistically it's gonna take time. However, the way people go on you'd swear the €3B for metrolink was just being spent on upgrading the green line and that was the only PT infrastructure spending announced for Dublin.

cgcsb

n.os90 wrote: »

Back when the Luas was built in the mid 00's I remember saying to people, "what is the purpose of this?" It felt like a statement that we were modernizing as a country, but for many years it only served as a way for people to travel to Tallaght and Dundrum Town Centre. If you were lucky enough to live along the line, it served as a great way to get into the City Centre, but the large majority of Dublin had no use for it. In recent years our population has grown, and many people are traveling from the outskirts of Dublin to these park-and-rides located along some of the busiest and congested areas of the m50, only to add to the number of traffic jams clogging up this ring road around Dublin.

I never understood the Luas and why they joined the two lines together after a few years. This was a complete afterthought, and now we have these silly little trams rattling around the city-center, causing traffic congestion as a result of bad planning. That said, its done now and it should be left alone. What I can't for the life of me understand is why they want to dig up the Green Line again. I get it, there are lots of wealthy Fianna Gael supporters living along this line, but what about the rest of us. What about all the people traveling from Wicklow and Wexford who can't get to Dublin in less than 2 hours during peak times? What about all the people in West Dublin stuck on a rubbish train and bus service? What about all the people traveling to Dublin every day from Kildare and Meath with nothing but a commuter train to force them out of the car? The only solution to Dublin's congestion problems is a proper underground metro system. Forget about joining it up with the Luas. Spend the money on a proper underground metro system serving the outer city with large Park and Rides located away from the busiest areas of the M50. Yes, it will cost a lot of money, but upgrading the Luas is not the solution and who really cares about it being integrated? All people really care about is getting into the city fast. If they have to walk 10 minutes to another line then so be it. I think West Dublin badly needs a metro along with the current proposed North Metro Route. South Dublin has sealed its fate with the Luas. It will never work, even if it is upgraded. Any frequent rail line, traveling above ground in a busy city is bound for failure. I travel from Wexford every day and I wouldn't dream of using the Luas from Bray every day unless they built a huge park and ride and extended the length of the trams dramatically. They won't be able to do this without turning most of the roads in South Dublin into Cul-de-Sacs, but funnily enough, this is what they are planning for Ranelagh. Disaster.

Metro link isn't going to be the last ever metro line built in Dublin there will be more. The Upgraded DART plan will look after West Dublin and Kildare commuters.

n.os90

I think the idea to go North with the metro is great, but I don't agree with introducing more Dart lines, unless the Dart West is sent underground at Heuston and brought closer to the city center via the South Quays, Dame St, and Stephens Green. I know this was the original plan, and then they decided to use the existing track joining Heuston to Connolly. Long term I don't think that track will withstand any kind of volume.

My issue is with the Luas. I think they should have left it alone, and I don't agree that it needs to join up with the new Metro North. I work in Ranelagh and they are proposing closing roads in this area. Most of the traffic in this area is generated from people traveling towards town from the m50. In theory, these people should be ditching their cars at Brides Glen and Sandyford and traveling into the city by Luas, but it's not feasible at present with the location of park and rides, and the cost of using them along with the Luas. I mentioned above that I travel from Wexford daily. Longterm, I should be able to park my car in Bray, away from the m50, and travel by underground Metro to the city center. I know what eventually will happen is the Luas will travel out as far as Bray and I can hop on there, but I don't think a tram system can withstand the volume of people traveling from the outskirts of the city longterm. We need fast, regular, underground metro trains, that can hold large amounts of people during peak times. In my opinion, the planners know we need an underground spider metro system in Dublin, but what they are doing is upgrading the Dart, Luas and commuter train systems because it's cheaper to do it this way, and more people are happy short term.

The reality of all this is that planners need to attract people away from their cars. The Luas has not done this. The purpose of the Luas is to provide an efficient transport service to commuters living in certain areas of South Dublin. If they close more roads in South Dublin to facilitate an overground metro system, then travel problems will increase and commuters may at this point consider using the metro from Sandyford. The problem with this is that getting to Sandyford requires clogging up the M50. I'm disregarding the Luas from Bray to Sandyford because it won't work long-term and commuters like myself traveling from Wexford and Wicklow will laugh at the idea of using two overground train services to get to the city center. Unless this entire rail network is put underground, more roads will close. You cannot accommodate the volume of people traveling from inside and outside of Dublin on tiny trams and Metros. This is already evident from what we are already seeing as a result of the Luas cross city. You've got small trams, packed to the brim with commuters, bumper to bumper trying to cross the city.

In my opinion, spend more money on an underground metro system for Dublin and forget about upgrading the Luas and Dart. Leave them alone and concentrate on one thing at a time. If it means certain areas of the city have to suffer for longer, then so be it. At least we won't have to upgrade the whole system again in another 10 years like they are proposing with the bloody Luas.

Sam Russell

n.os90 wrote: »

I think the idea to go North with the metro is great, but I don't agree with introducing more Dart lines, unless the Dart West is sent underground at Heuston and brought closer to the city center via the South Quays, Dame St, and Stephens Green. I know this was the original plan, and then they decided to use the existing track joining Heuston to Connolly. Long term I don't think that track will withstand any kind of volume.

My issue is with the Luas. I think they should have left it alone, and I don't agree that it needs to join up with the new Metro North. I work in Ranelagh and they are proposing closing roads in this area. Most of the traffic in this area is generated from people traveling towards town from the m50. In theory, these people should be ditching their cars at Brides Glen and Sandyford and traveling into the city by Luas, but it's not feasible at present with the location of park and rides, and the cost of using them along with the Luas. I mentioned above that I travel from Wexford daily. Longterm, I should be able to park my car in Bray, away from the m50, and travel by underground Metro to the city center. I know what eventually will happen is the Luas will travel out as far as Bray and I can hop on there, but I don't think a tram system can withstand the volume of people traveling from the outskirts of the city longterm. We need fast, regular, underground metro trains, that can hold large amounts of people during peak times. In my opinion, the planners know we need an underground spider metro system in Dublin, but what they are doing is upgrading the Dart, Luas and commuter train systems because it's cheaper to do it this way, and more people are happy short term.

The reality of all this is that planners need to attract people away from their cars. The Luas has not done this. The purpose of the Luas is to provide an efficient transport service to commuters living in certain areas of South Dublin. If they close more roads in South Dublin to facilitate an overground metro system, then travel problems will increase and commuters may at this point consider using the metro from Sandyford. The problem with this is that getting to Sandyford requires clogging up the M50. I'm disregarding the Luas from Bray to Sandyford because it won't work long-term and commuters like myself traveling from Wexford and Wicklow will laugh at the idea of using two overground train services to get to the city center. Unless this entire rail network is put underground, more roads will close. You cannot accommodate the volume of people traveling from inside and outside of Dublin on tiny trams and Metros. This is already evident from what we are already seeing as a result of the Luas cross city. You've got small trams, packed to the brim with commuters, bumper to bumper trying to cross the city.

In my opinion, spend more money on an underground metro system for Dublin and forget about upgrading the Luas and Dart. Leave them alone and concentrate on one thing at a time. If it means certain areas of the city have to suffer for longer, then so be it. At least we won't have to upgrade the whole system again in another 10 years like they are proposing with the bloody Luas.

If you are travelling from Wexford, why not use the Dart to get to the city centre?

Overground is OK if it already exists and is grade separated, and the proposed upgrading of the Green line from Ranalagh to Sandyford will be. That upgrade was always envisaged (to be Metro) but unfortunately the extension to Bride's Glen was not.

P&R places need to be installed to cater for traffic outside the M50 to change to PT. It is already in place at some points but will be at Lissenhall on the M1.

Underground is expensive.

Idbatterim

What about all the people traveling from Wicklow and Wexford who can't get to Dublin in less than 2 hours during peak times?

as you pointed out, there needs to be a huge park and ride around n11, as far south as possible, when they build the connection to bray. I think its a shame that this has extension has not been announced... That and the extension of the current green line to out past the m50, would be the ones that I would like to see built asap... as well as swords metro obviously...

bk

n.os90 wrote: »

I think the idea to go North with the metro is great, but I don't agree with introducing more Dart lines, unless the Dart West is sent underground at Heuston and brought closer to the city center via the South Quays, Dame St, and Stephens Green. I know this was the original plan, and then they decided to use the existing track joining Heuston to Connolly. Long term I don't think that track will withstand any kind of volume.

Any particular reason? There isn't anything inherit about the PPT or the tracks in that area to say they can't handle large volumes.

Anyway the long term plan is to still do the Dart Underground tunnel, once the MetroLink is finished. So using the PPT isn't the long term plan anyway.

n.os90 wrote: »

My issue is with the Luas. I think they should have left it alone, and I don't agree that it needs to join up with the new Metro North. I work in Ranelagh and they are proposing closing roads in this area. Most of the traffic in this area is generated from people traveling towards town from the m50. In theory, these people should be ditching their cars at Brides Glen and Sandyford and traveling into the city by Luas, but it's not feasible at present with the location of park and rides, and the cost of using them along with the Luas. I mentioned above that I travel from Wexford daily. Longterm, I should be able to park my car in Bray, away from the m50, and travel by underground Metro to the city center. I know what eventually will happen is the Luas will travel out as far as Bray and I can hop on there, but I don't think a tram system can withstand the volume of people traveling from the outskirts of the city longterm. We need fast, regular, underground metro trains, that can hold large amounts of people during peak times.

That is the whole point of upgrading the Green Luas line to Metro. At the moment they can't encourage anymore people to park and ride on it as it is already at full capacity. What would be the point in adding more P&R space when people already can't get on the Luas?

By upgrading the green line to Metro standard, they can triple it's capacity and then yes they can build lots more P&R spaces along the route, thus taking people out of their cars like you suggest.

n.os90 wrote: »

In my opinion, the planners know we need an underground spider metro system in Dublin, but what they are doing is upgrading the Dart, Luas and commuter train systems because it's cheaper to do it this way, and more people are happy short term.

They do and they have to start somewhere and Metrolink is where they are starting.

The Green line was always designed to be easily upgradeable to Metro, it is highly segregated, etc. so it makes complete sense to upgrade it to do so. Cheap and easy option to massively increase capacity. The fact that this section isn't underground isn't very important, all undergroudn systems, like in London, New York, etc. have large sections of above ground running where it suits. What is important is the level of segregation, not underground versus overground.

Metrolink will make for the high capacity mass transit corridor North to South through the city.

After that they will build the DART Underground tunnel, which will give us the East to West high capacity mass transit corridor through the city.

Those two would give us a really solid core network to work off and branch off.

Of course after that we are likely to get more Metro lines, maybe North East to South West, etc.

n.os90 wrote: »

The reality of all this is that planners need to attract people away from their cars. The Luas has not done this. The purpose of the Luas is to provide an efficient transport service to commuters living in certain areas of South Dublin. If they close more roads in South Dublin to facilitate an overground metro system, then travel problems will increase and commuters may at this point consider using the metro from Sandyford. The problem with this is that getting to Sandyford requires clogging up the M50. I'm disregarding the Luas from Bray to Sandyford because it won't work long-term and commuters like myself traveling from Wexford and Wicklow will laugh at the idea of using two overground train services to get to the city center. Unless this entire rail network is put underground, more roads will close. You cannot accommodate the volume of people traveling from inside and outside of Dublin on tiny trams and Metros. This is already evident from what we are already seeing as a result of the Luas cross city. You've got small trams, packed to the brim with commuters, bumper to bumper trying to cross the city.

Luas from Bray to Sandyford will have plenty of capacity to meet demand, with a quick and easy transfer to Metro at Sandyford.

I think you don't really understand these plans.

The point of Metrolink and DART Expansion plans is to ring the city with high capacity P&R's

Metrolink will have two P&R's on the M1 and M50 to the north and the upgraded greenline will allow for lots more P&R's to the south.

The Maynooth and Hazelhatch DARTificartions will allows for P&R's to the west of Dublin on the M50.

n.os90

Idbatterim wrote: »

as you pointed out, there needs to be a huge park and ride around n11, as far south as possible, when they build the connection to bray. I think its a shame that this has extension has not been announced... That and the extension of the current green line to out past the m50, would be the ones that I would like to see built asap... as well as swords metro obviously...

A lot of people say those traveling from the N11 are worst affected, but I think the focus should be initially put on West Dublin. It's a crime that Lucan is not being catered for correctly. I just worry that a Dart is not the solution for West Dublin. I think they should put the infrastructure in place now to put a metro system out that way like they are doing for North Dublin. The Luas South should have been built it correctly the first time. Fixing that now is not fair on the rest of Dublin.

AlekSmart

Idbatterim wrote: »

as you pointed out, there needs to be a huge park and ride around n11, as far south as possible, when they build the connection to bray. I think its a shame that this has extension has not been announced... That and the extension of the current green line to out past the m50, would be the ones that I would like to see built asap... as well as swords metro obviously...

One issue,now becoming VERY obvious,is the proposed "Fast-Tracking" of Planning Applications in and around the M50 Southside (Leopardstown-Ballyogan-Stepaside).

Nothing that I have yet seen,leads me to believe the proposed developments,being eagerly touted (by largely the same gang as before the "crash" will be of sufficient density to provide the critical mass required for successful Mass Transit Operation.

I would be quite surprised if we do not see more "Townhouses,Duplexes"and a nod towards a few small apartments with plenty of space to park an oul car.

Even the NTA appear reticent to embrace Hi-Capacity managed Park'n Ride as a concept,which would require 24 Hour Monitored,multi-storey developments to become THE destination of choice for the motorist approaching the City,rather than getting as close to The Stephens Green or ILAC centre's as possible.

Sadly,it remains very clear that Irelands administrative elite have only a fleeting grasp of the term "planning",particularly if it is also supposed to be Sustainable......The College Green comic-opera continues to prove this

bk

n.os90 wrote: »

A lot of people say those traveling from the N11 are worst affected, but I think the focus should be initially put on West Dublin. It's a crime that Lucan is not being catered for correctly. I just worry that a Dart is not the solution for West Dublin. I think they should put the infrastructure in place now to put a metro system out that way like they are doing for North Dublin.

The tunnel section of the DART Underground plan is currently being redesigned. One suggestion is that it could be continued past Hueston and out to Lucan.

BTW Expansion of DART on the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines is all about serving West Dublin.

n.os90 wrote: »

The Luas South should have been built it correctly the first time. Fixing that now is not fair on the rest of Dublin.

It was. It was built to be easily and cheaply upgradeable to Metro standard, exactly as they are planning to do now.

magg1ec

Metro North is mooted again!

Now dressed up as New Metro North.

How long have we been hearing Metro North is coming?!!!!

Was it first hinted at in 2001?

Do I suspect another election is looming?

I, for one, won't be holding my breath!

n.os90

It was. It was built to be easily and cheaply upgradeable to Metro standard, exactly as they are planning to do now.[/QUOTE]

The entire track needs to be widened and lowered. They will be building new bridges and stations along the track and completely segregating it from the road Network. Why didn't they build a metro there in the first place? If this metro south wasn't an afterthought, then why wasn't it included in the original plans all those years ago to build a line out to the airport? Mark my words, the entire Luas system will be replaced by a metro in 50 years including the new bits they build this time around. The way I see this is, sorry Luas you can stay the way you are. Now let's build the rest of Dublin a proper metro system that actually works. I am extremely angry that the Green line is being torn up before a lot of key areas get a look in elsewhere.

cgcsb

n.os90 wrote: »

The entire track needs to be widened and lowered. They will be building new bridges and stations along the track and completely segregating it from the road Network. Why didn't they build a metro there in the first place? If this metro south wasn't an afterthought, then why wasn't it included in the original plans all those years ago to build a line out to the airport? Mark my words, the entire Luas system will be replaced by a metro in 50 years including the new bits they build this time around. The way I see this is, sorry Luas you can stay the way you are. Now let's build the rest of Dublin a proper metro system that actually works. I am extremely angry that the Green line is being torn up before a lot of key areas elsewhere get a look in.

The green line isn't being torn up, or widened. There will be no new stations either. The only works going into upgrading the existing green line is building higher platforms to accommodate higher trams, putting in over passes for pedestrians and there are 3 road crossings to be closed. The only difficult engineering issue will be connecting the new metro route to the existing green line at charlemont. The luas will remain a good system for Dublin but only on shorter routes Finglas to Charlemont and Poolbeg to St James's for example with the long distance routes being covered by metro and DART as it should be, on street trams shouldn't be serving distant commuter towns, that was a mistake and one orchestrated by FF and their developer buddies who all wanted a luas line for their development but nobody seemed to care about the limited capacity of an on-street tram system, that is now being addressed.

Sandyford-Swords will form the first Dublin Metro line, I'd expect a second to be built, roughly Clarehall to Tallaght via Terenure. The existing railways around Dublin will be brought up to DART standard and have a service every 10 mins. What's not to like about that? should there be more done? absolutely but why complain when something's actually being done about it.

n.os90

cgcsb wrote: »

The green line isn't being torn up, or widened. There will be no new stations either. The only works going into upgrading the existing green line is building higher platforms to accommodate higher trams, putting in over passes for pedestrians and there are 3 road crossings to be closed. The only difficult engineering issue will be connecting the new metro route to the existing green line at charlemont. The luas will remain a good system for Dublin but only on shorter routes Finglas to Charlemont and Poolbeg to St James's for example with the long distance routes being covered by metro and DART as it should be, on street trams shouldn't be serving distant commuter towns, that was a mistake and one orchestrated by FF and their developer buddies who all wanted a luas line for their development but nobody seemed to care about the limited capacity of an on-street tram system, that is now being addressed.

Sandyford-Swords will form the first Dublin Metro line, I'd expect a second to be built, roughly Clarehall to Tallaght via Terenure. The existing railways around Dublin will be brought up to DART standard and have a service every 10 mins. What's not to like about that? should there be more done? absolutely but why complain when something's actually being done about it.

According to business owners in Ranelagh, they have been told the tracks need to be wider and they will all come up, one way or another. Whether this is true or not I don't know. Realistically the platforms will need to be longer and areas around Beechwood, Cowper and Alexander college will need a look at, as they are currently used as walkways as much as tram lines. There will be safety issues there. I can't see a metro barreling down the existing line without major changes to its infrastructure. It's too dangerous.

Sam Russell

n.os90 wrote: »

According to business owners in Ranelagh, they have been told the tracks need to be wider and they will all come up, one way or another. Whether this is true or not I don't know. Realistically the platforms will need to be longer and areas around Beechwood, Cowper and Alexander college will need a look at, as they are currently used as walkways as much as tram lines. There will be safety issues there. I can't see a metro barreling down the existing line without major changes to its infrastructure. It's too dangerous.

It is not the lines that need to come up - they are set for metro already, but the connection at Ranelagh has to rise from the tunnel from the Charlemont stop that is underground.

That is where the costs come from - every station needs reworking - some hard and some easy. Stillorgan stop has to go on stilts to cope with a bridge across St Raphaela's Road.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is where the costs come from - every station needs reworking - some hard and some easy. Stillorgan stop has to go on stilts to cope with a bridge across St Raphaela's Road.

Alternatively just close the Stillorgan stop due to its proximity to Sandyford

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

It was. It was built to be easily and cheaply upgradeable to Metro standard, exactly as they are planning to do now.

Come on BK. You know damn well that's not the absolute truth. The Metro threads are full of questions about the tie in, vehicle types, platform extensions/heightening, segregation etc. etc. re. the green line. Nothing easy or cheap about any of it considering the infancy of where we are right now. The NTA can't even provide definitive answers.

Sam Russell

Grandeeod wrote: »

Come on BK. You know damn well that's not the absolute truth. The Metro threads are full of questions about the tie in, vehicle types, platform extensions/heightening, segregation etc. etc. re. the green line. Nothing easy or cheap about any of it considering the infancy of where we are right now. The NTA can't even provide definitive answers.

The project is at an early stage - 'emerging preferred route' - public consultation - so no definite answers otherwise what is the point of public consultation?

The old Harcourt St line was a heavy railway and the tramway used the original trackway for most of its run on the original alignment. Consequently it can take full size trains. The exact connection to the Metrolink is still undecided.

Projected cost of the upgrade of the Green Line section is given (iirc) €90m to €136 m depending on choices. In the scale of things, that gets a tripling of capacity of that section for very little. To go to Tallaght would cost a significant amount extra - perhaps €1 to €2 billion extra, perhaps more. Given that the Green Line on that section is already over capacity, leaving passengers behind, an upgrade is needed urgently but will not be ready for a decade.

More info here.

Chris_5339762

Surely getting it underground near Ranelagh and deep enough for a station at Charlemont and under the canal straight away will mean quite the gradient, or a lot of work. I foresee quite an engineering challenge here.

Edit: And I hope to god they move the Airport stop. As it stands its coming up in the middle of the surface carparks. It HAS to be underneath the terminals with prospects for an underground route to Terminal 3 if that gets built. We simply can't be stupid enough to build it anywhere other than under the terminals like any sane country.