Aer Lingus Viscount Crash Tuskar Rock 1968

Mebuntu

I recall vividly that 1968 radio news broadcast on Radio Eireann to the effect that an Aer Lingus flight from Cork was overdue in London.

A new Newstalk documentary was broadcast in three segments this week on the Pat Kenny Show and this was one of the best and most intriguing documentaries I have ever listened to on radio.

Full of just about every ingredient for a thriller/conspiracy, as well as how one particular family has coped over all the years, it can be listened back to on a podcast on newstalk.com. A must listen in my view.

Some of the ingredients for those who are not familiar with this event:

The crash investigator was the same person who had signed off the Viscount's airworthiness cert a few months earlier.

His report never mentioned that the records of a routine maintenance check on the Viscount a few months earlier went missing and were never found.

The general public (including me) being indoctrinated for 30 years that the probable cause was an accidental hit from an RAF drone or missile (that they categorically denied).

No reference to a somewhat similar incident involving another Aer Lingus Viscount on a training mission that crashed 9 months earlier killing the crew or to other previous Viscount crashes.

46 eyewitness reports of the clearly identified Aer Lingus Viscount flying at low level all over counties Wexford and Waterford were ignored/ruled out. (i.e. disbelieved)

Gallant flight crew performing miracles for 32 minutes trying desperately to get the plane under control and land somewhere.

The strange anomaly of ATC tapes that purportedly put the Viscount levelled off at 17,000ft instead of being at that low level for 32 minutes.

Behind all this is, of course, the terrible tragedy that affected so many families.

RadioRetro

There's a service of commemoration tomorrow, the anniversary of the loss of St Phelim, in Rosslare Harbour at 14.30 in the memorial garden.

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

TDM900

Yes,it's maintenance history is very strange.
The type was know to have had tailplane issues.

sparrowcar

RadioRetro wrote: »

There's a service of commemoration tomorrow, the anniversary of the loss of St Phelim, in Rosslare Harbour at 14.30 in the memorial garden.

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

Anne Kelly? My mother was friends with her and her sister, from the Clontarf area. She said it devastated the country at the time, prob similar to reaction rescue 116 received.

Owryan

During one of the news reports on the tragedy they mentioned that unlike what was the norm for other airlines, Aer Lingus didn't retire the flight number after the crash.

Did they ever give a reason for this? just curious.

EchoIndia

Owryan wrote: »

During one of the news reports on the tragedy they mentioned that unlike what was the norm for other airlines, Aer Lingus didn't retire the flight number after the crash.

Did they ever give a reason for this? just curious.

That is something of a US practice, I think, and driven by media reports that latch onto the flight number. By way of contrast, the BEA Trident crash at Staines in 1972 tended to be referred to as the "Papa India" accident, in reference to the aircraft's registration, G-ARPI.

EchoIndia

Mebuntu wrote: »

I recall vividly that 1968 radio news broadcast on Radio Eireann to the effect that an Aer Lingus flight from Cork was overdue in London.

A new Newstalk documentary was broadcast in three segments this week on the Pat Kenny Show and this was one of the best and most intriguing documentaries I have ever listened to on radio.

Full of just about every ingredient for a thriller/conspiracy, as well as how one particular family has coped over all the years, it can be listened back to on a podcast on newstalk.com. A must listen in my view.

Some of the ingredients for those who are not familiar with this event:

The crash investigator was the same person who had signed off the Viscount's airworthiness cert a few months earlier.

His report never mentioned that the records of a routine maintenance check on the Viscount a few months earlier went missing and were never found.

The general public (including me) being indoctrinated for 30 years that the probable cause was an accidental hit from an RAF drone or missile (that they categorically denied).

No reference to a somewhat similar incident involving another Aer Lingus Viscount on a training mission that crashed 9 months earlier killing the crew or to other previous Viscount crashes.

46 eyewitness reports of the clearly identified Aer Lingus Viscount flying at low level all over counties Wexford and Waterford were ignored/ruled out. (i.e. disbelieved)

Gallant flight crew performing miracles for 32 minutes trying desperately to get the plane under control and land somewhere.

The strange anomaly of ATC tapes that purportedly put the Viscount levelled off at 17,000ft instead of being at that low level for 32 minutes.

Behind all this is, of course, the terrible tragedy that affected so many families.

I have always found it impossible to reconcile the notion of a large airliner descending in a rapid spin over the sea and then the crew recovering it, presumably with aircraft or control damage, flying around at low level for 30 minutes and then still ending up in the sea at the original point where the flight upset had begun. The inquiry commissioned by Mary O'Rourke when Minister for Public Enterprise was conducted long after the original event, when there was little if any primary evidence to work with. Eyewitness statements, even when contemporary with an event, are notoriously unreliable. Recollections decades after the event, no matter how sincerely stated, could hardly be accorded immense value, I would suggest.

As always in these matters, there is value in reading the actual official reports rather than relying too much on a journalist's summation. Here is a link: http://www.aaiu.ie/node/5

ED E

These pods from Pat Kenny are a nice insight into the human side of things.

http://pca.st/kJT0 P1
http://pca.st/WSWz P2
http://pca.st/Jv77 P3

Skyknight

RadioRetro wrote: »

There's a service of commemoration tomorrow, the anniversary of the loss of St Phelim, in Rosslare Harbour at 14.30 in the memorial garden.

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

She wouldn't have just received her wings just before the accident by any chance?

tricky D

RadioRetro wrote: »

A cousin by marriage was a cabin crew member on the flight but I had never met her.

Somewhat likewise, the maker of the podcasts is the grandson of one of the crew.

Stovepipe

When the crash was originally investigated, the Department of Transport and Power were the relevant authority, and continued to be so until the IAA was created, so until the separate AAIU were created, air accident investigation was undertaken by the DoT&P and then the IAA and it was usually carried out by a mix of pilots and aircraft engineers employed by the Authority. These days, its the AAIU and still a mix of former airline and military pilots and aircraft engineers, all of whom are trained in air accident investigation. Back then,air accident investigation was carried out by the normal aeronautical inspectors on a who's next basis.......after the third Viscount crash, EI grounded the survivors and sold them off. The crash in Co Meath and the third crash in the UK are rarely mentioned, compared to this crash.

jimmythedivil

I listened to that doc on the PK show too. Very well made and interesting but extremely sad for the families. I always think of it when I fly from Cork to London.

EchoIndia

Stovepipe wrote: »

When the crash was originally investigated, the Department of Transport and Power were the relevant authority, and continued to be so until the IAA was created, so until the separate AAIU were created, air accident investigation was undertaken by the DoT&P and then the IAA and it was usually carried out by a mix of pilots and aircraft engineers employed by the Authority. These days, its the AAIU and still a mix of former airline and military pilots and aircraft engineers, all of whom are trained in air accident investigation. Back then,air accident investigation was carried out by the normal aeronautical inspectors on a who's next basis.......after the third Viscount crash, EI grounded the survivors and sold them off. The crash in Co Meath and the third crash in the UK are rarely mentioned, compared to this crash.

The Viscounts were retired as new short-haul jets came on line, which was very much in line with what other European carriers such as Lufthansa, Air Inter, and BEA did during the same period. Few enough of the Aer Lingus machines went on to other carriers. I'm not sure why but there was probably a glut of the type on the market in any case. The type continued to serve with some carriers (principally British Air Ferries) until the late 1990s. It must be remembered that the rate of airline accidents in the 1960s was way in excess of what we are used to today and Aer Lingus was not the only carrier to lose an aircraft on crew-training. The Tuskar crash is recalled particularly because it was only Aer Lingus's second fatal accident (and there has been none since) and of course because of the indeterminate cause. The conspiracy theories seem to have originated in some rather speculative language in the original report. Accident reports nowadays are written very much in a factual way and there is much less scope for speculation unless there is some good evidence on which to ground it.

IE 222

Was much of the wreckage recovered. Is any or it stored or has it been disposed off by now.

RadioRetro

Skyknight wrote: »

She wouldn't have just received her wings just before the accident by any chance?

No idea, I was 8 and living in Africa at the time.

roundymac

IIRC the Viscounts were scrapped in Dublin because they could not sell them. Every airline wanted jets, it was the modern thing at the time. When EI bought them they reckoned they would have no problem selling them on.

kona

Theres a cockpit section of a aer lingus viscount still floating about.

EchoIndia

kona wrote: »

There's a cockpit section of a aer lingus viscount still floating about.

I think it's now safe in the Aer Lingus hangar at Dublin after being stored (and I think damaged) off-airport for many years. It is the nose of EI-AOH. http://www.vickersviscount.net/Index/VickersViscount180Photos.aspx

Mebuntu

EchoIndia wrote: »

The Tuskar crash is recalled particularly because it was only Aer Lingus's second fatal accident

It was actually their third fatal. The Ashbourne Viscount crash 9 months prior to Tuskar Rock and, previously, a DC3 crashed in the Welsh Mountains in January 1952 with all onboard perishing in both accidents.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ceremony-for-men-killed-in-aer-lingus-training-flight-crash-1.3354850

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/night-23-killed-on-a-welsh-hillside-26808906.html

In between Ashbourne and Tuskar Rock another of their Viscounts crashed while landing at Bristol. Nobody died but the plane was written off. Pathe News film of aircraft after the crash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEQPiQ56OiA

In relation to Tuskar Rock this was one of the (later) conspiracy theories!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/tuskar-rock-crash-caused-by-collision-raf-man-1.1293695

EchoIndia

I didn't count the Ashbourne crash as it was a non-revenue flight.

Stovepipe

The Viscounts were parked down by what is called Cargoland, where the new stands, 411 to 418 exist, where, traditionally, the late night cargo aircraft operated out of. EI ramp staff were specifically told that the aircraft were not to be touched, except for the occasional preservation check or for training people to tow aircraft. Essentially, the airline had lost faith in the aircraft and no-one wanted to fly them or even touch them and jets were the coming thing.

Locker10a

In relation to the RAF conspiracy linked above, that’s also a common opinion of a few London air traffic controllers who were around close to the time the accident happened

Stovepipe

Cobblers...the Fouga never had ejection seats in any of it's production models. If an aircraft was lost in an accident, it would have had to be struck off the official French service records kept for all service aircraft so it's fate would be available for all to see.

Locker10a

Stovepipe wrote: »

Cobblers...the Fouga never had ejection seats in any of it's production models. If an aircraft was lost in an accident, it would have had to be struck off the official French service records kept for all service aircraft so it's fate would be available for all to see.

Sorry yeah, I should have clarified, not necessarily the collision with the French aircraft but that RAF training missions in that area had something to do with the accident, most probably a missile etc. Not necessialy my option just what I’ve been told by London controllers.

EchoIndia

The problem with conspiracy theories is that those who claim a conspiracy generally don't offer up any credible or demonstrably accurate information; hearsay or allegation seems to be enough. I was a bit surprised to see that a priest who conducted a memorial service in Cork this weekend went for the "someone knows something but is not revealing it" approach.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/anyone-with-knowledge-about-the-cause-of-tuskar-disaster-is-urged-to-come-forward-1.3439835

rushfan

Stovepipe wrote:

The Viscounts were parked down by what is called Cargoland, where the new stands, 411 to 418 exist, where, traditionally, the late night cargo aircraft operated out of. EI ramp staff were specifically told that the aircraft were not to be touched, except for the occasional preservation check or for training people to tow aircraft. Essentially, the airline had lost faith in the aircraft and no-one wanted to fly them or even touch them and jets were the coming thing.

I have a vague recollection of seeing aircraft in that area during the early 70s. I used to be at the old man to drive past just to see them. Presumably they were the Viscounts?

Comhrá

I'm guessing those are they?

Irish Steve

Not completely relevant to the Aer Lingus viscounts, but no doubt a factor in some of the decisions that were made, a long time ago now, I recall reading a story about a Viscount that has a problem when landing, a link on the nose wheel broke, and as a result, there was massive vibration as it landed at (I believe) Liverpool, and the nosewheel shimmied very dramatically.

A discussion with flight operations ensued, and a local engineer fitted a replacement link, and the pilot was asked to perform a test flight to ensure that all was well. For some reason that I can't recall, the test flight could not go ahead, and the relevant people then spoke with someone else at base, who was horrified that the engineers had not checked for damage in the tail, as apparently, the elevator spars were vulnerable to damage when this particular fault occurred. The aircraft concerned was inspected, and it was subsequently revealed that had it taken off, very shortly after the take off, it would have crashed, as the elevator spars would have folded up, making the aircraft uncontrollable.

It might have nothing to do with the Aer Lingus fleet, but I do recall at the time wondering how many Viscounts were affected by problems in this area.

Stovepipe

One of the main criticisms of the entire Viscount type was the widely different cockpit fit out. It was common for one subtype to have a cockpit layout with levers, knobs and switches in different places around the cockpit so crews had to be trained for the differences between submodels.....I once had the job of helping to convert Viscounts from pax to cargo in British World, for an African airline. they were built like brick outdoor conveniences, to say the least.

cailinoBAC

Just listened to the documentary, thanks for linking to it, (my dad, who was telling us his memory of the day on Saturday and how he heard the news, said he thought he'd told me about the doc but hadn't!). I was going to listen to it anyway when I read about it here but turned out to be focused on my great aunt's family. I remember always hearing about this from my dad growing up, and in particular around the time of the 2002 investigation, but still shocking to hear again and how the after effects continue.

Locker10a

cailinoBAC wrote: »

Just listened to the documentary, thanks for linking to it, (my dad, who was telling us his memory of the day on Saturday and how he heard the news, said he thought he'd told me about the doc but hadn't!). I was going to listen to it anyway when I read about it here but turned out to be focused on my great aunt's family. I remember always hearing about this from my dad growing up, and in particular around the time of the 2002 investigation, but still shocking to hear again and how the after effects continue.

I’ve just finished it too, I found the summary of the flight given at the end of part 3 chilling to listen to. I found myself with goosebumps, deeply upsetting, shocking about how poorly the original investigation was but very interesting podcast.