Aer Lingus Viscount Crash Tuskar Rock 1968

cailinoBAC

Locker10a wrote: »

I’ve just finished it too, I found the summary of the flight given at the end of part 3 chilling to listen to. I found myself with goosebumps, deeply upsetting, shocking about how poorly the original investigation was but very interesting podcast.

Yeah, same. I remember my grandad talking about the witnesses outside the church.

As for investigation, a few years ago we were talking about the crash and I think my father in law said the investigator was his uncle...I could be misremembering, but not sure I want to bring it up after hearing that...

roundymac

Just listening to the last piece it remined me of the Japanese 747 that crashed in 1985(?), it had a damaged tailplne from a decompression. It flew around for about 30 minutes before it crashed into a mountain.

Tenger

Owryan wrote: »

During one of the news reports on the tragedy they mentioned that unlike what was the norm for other airlines, Aer Lingus didn't retire the flight number after the crash.

Did they ever give a reason for this? just curious.

Aer Lingus retired the name St.Phelim after Tuskar Rock. Also retired the name from another fatal crash.

EchoIndia

Tenger wrote: »

Aer Lingus retired the name St.Phelim after Tuskar Rock. Also retired the name from another fatal crash.

That must have been the other Viscount tragedy, involving EI-AOF named "St. Cathal".

The DC-3 that crashed in Wales was named "St. Kevin" but this was later used on A320 EI-CVD.

Tenger

EchoIndia wrote: »

That must have been the other Viscount tragedy, involving EI-AOF named "St. Cathal".

The DC-3 that crashed in Wales was named "St. Kevin" but this was later used on A320 EI-CVD.

Ah, that was it. I was going to dig out my “Flight of the Iolar” for a quick glance.
Odd that the Snowdonia crash airc aft name was retained.

Bebop

In 1968 I remember passing by Labre Park in Ballyfermot and saw several Viscount fuselages on a scrapheap, I stopped and had a look, they were ex Aer Lingus Viscounts that had been crudely chopped up, there were some nose sections with what looked like complete cockpits with controls and flight instruments and dials,
Afterwards I spoke to a friend who worked in AL who told me that the mechanics were given chain saws and told to cut up the 8 aircraft

I listened to the excellent documentary today and I have a question:

If the service records of the St Phelim could not be found, did the investigators not have a look at the records of other Viscounts in the AL fleet? Do any of them show hull corrosion issues?

Locker10a

Bebop wrote: »

In 1968 I remember passing by Labre Park in Ballyfermot and saw several Viscount fuselages on a scrapheap, I stopped and had a look, they were ex Aer Lingus Viscounts that had been crudely chopped up, there were some nose sections with what looked like complete cockpits with controls and flight instruments and dials,
Afterwards I spoke to a friend who worked in AL who told me that the mechanics were given chain saws and told to cut up the 8 aircraft

I listened to the excellent documentary today and I have a question:

If the service records of the St Phelim could not be found, did the investigators not have a look at the records of other Viscounts in the AL fleet? Do any of them show hull corrosion issues?

By the sounds of how the original investigation was conducted, it seems they did everything not to point any cause as being technical or mechanical or anything to do with the aircraft and it’s maintenance. So the answer is probably no, or at least if they did it was fine internally in EI and never released to the public.
30 years later when the accident was reviewed by an impartial body those recited were probably long gone.

I listened to this podcast again with a current air traffic controller.
He couldn’t fathom how there wasnt more ATC evidence, how it wasn’t seen on radar flying erratically, dropping altitude so quickly etc. This could have been seen by London ATC or Shannon on their radars. Out of interest he googled he googled the report which included the radio transcript, and was perplexed at how odd it was, and it’s his opinion it was edited, he said the transcript looked like it was written by layman, and not how radio dialogue would have been carried out at the time. So who knows, it appears the original investigation was a complete shambles.

EchoIndia

Locker10a wrote: »

He couldn’t fathom how there wasnt more ATC evidence, how it wasn’t seen on radar flying erratically, dropping altitude so quickly etc. This could have been seen by London ATC or Shannon on their radars. Out of interest he googled he googled the report which included the radio transcript, and was perplexed at how odd it was, and it’s his opinion it was edited, he said the transcript looked like it was written by layman, and not how radio dialogue would have been carried out at the time. So who knows, it appears the original investigation was a complete shambles.

Irish ATC at that time used primary radar only so that would not have captured height information. I'm not sure about London but the transcripts show that SSR "squawks" were never mentioned, so maybe they were similarly limited. From having regularly listened to Dublin and Shannon ATC from the 1970s to date I would say that the conversations as depicted don't seem all that strange. Non-consistent use of airline callsigns and use of abbreviated readbacks were more a feature then, with much lower traffic levels, fewer operators and pilots and controllers often on first-name terms. Reading the 1970 report now, it looks quite limited, but then the whole business of accident investigation was not as developed as it is now, and crucially there were no data or voice recorders to go on - things that are now deemed indispensable in finding out what happened and why.

cml387

One thing was never adequately explained, and that was the captain's use of the aircraft registration "Echo India Alpha Oscar Mike with you".
This was used in the accident report to surmise that the pilot was suddenly visual with another aircraft and in the stress of the situation used the registration (on a plate on the cockpit dashboard) rather than the callsign Shamrock 712.

That would be unusual even vy the standards of the day, I would have thought.

EchoIndia

cml387 wrote: »

One thing was never adequately explained, and that was the captain's use of the aircraft registration "Echo India Alpha Oscar Mike with you".
This was used in the accident report to surmise that the pilot was suddenly visual with another aircraft and in the stress of the situation used the registration (on a plate on the cockpit dashboard) rather than the callsign Shamrock 712.

That would be unusual even vy the standards of the day, I would have thought.

The 1970 report states:

".....At 10.58.02, 33 seconds later, London Radar intercepted a call unfortunately simultaneously with another call from a different aircraft but which was later confirmed as "Echo India Alpha Oscar Mike with you". This message was not in the form generally used by Aer Lingus flight crews, in which the call sign used is the flight number. Furthermore, the message did not begin with the usual preamble, in that it did not contain the call sign of any ground communication station. The message was not in the recognised form of a distress or urgency message. Nevertheless, it seems probable that the message was intended to convey an element of urgency or distress, and that the aircraft was in difficulties at the time of transmission."

The report did not, as far as I can see, link the nature of the distress call to any alleged sighting of another aircraft. It's interesting, if you read the original report, that another Aer Lingus Viscount, operating EI362 to Bristol, heard the EI-AOM message and put two and two together quickly, i.e. that this was probably the EI712 flight with which London was unable to make contact.

orionm_73

Apologies in advance if this sounds stupid, but could the “echo India alpha Oscar mike with you” transmission have come from another aircraft TO the Viscount? Given that the EI crew would normally have used Shamrock as their call sign. The other aircraft not knowing the flight number might have used the reg instead? Or was it proven that it was the crew of the viscount making that call?

cml387

orionm_73 wrote: »

Apologies in advance if this sounds stupid, but could the “echo India alpha Oscar mike with you” transmission have come from another aircraft TO the Viscount? Given that the EI crew would normally have used Shamrock as their call sign. The other aircraft not knowing the flight number might have used the reg instead? Or was it proven that it was the crew of the viscount making that call?

It certainly played a part in one of teh conspiracy theories, including the one about a military aircraft checking out the aircraft as a help to the crew (all ex aer corps).

The report never doubted it came from the crew but I suppose it's a possibility. We know that VHF communication was poor that day.

Locker10a

orionm_73 wrote: »

Apologies in advance if this sounds stupid, but could the “echo India alpha Oscar mike with you” transmission have come from another aircraft TO the Viscount? Given that the EI crew would normally have used Shamrock as their call sign. The other aircraft not knowing the flight number might have used the reg instead? Or was it proven that it was the crew of the viscount making that call?

I understand the theory behind that transmission was that the pilots under stress of dealing with a catastrophic failure in the aircraft were distracted and concentrating heavily and momentarily forgot the flight number, and so used the reg which would have been printed directly infant of them. Just a theory I've come across elsewhere

EchoIndia

The voice IIRC was corroborated as being that of one the crew (the FO?) by persons who knew the pilots. By the way, in those days the company callsign was "Aer Lingus", as documented in the official report. "Shamrock" was confined to transatlantic (Aerlinte Eireann) flights.