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Eviction letter - Clause help
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23-03-2018 5:38pm#1Hi,
I gave my tenant 4 months notice last December (note - I only had to give 3 legally) as to help them with a bit more time to find something.
We intend on renovating the house and adding in an extra room/extension and doing up the whole house (it hasn’t been touched in years).
She is due to move out next weekend and has been to a homeless advice clinic somewhere, they have supposedly found a clause in my eviction letter that I did not state “the name of the contractor, if any, employed to carry out the intended works”
Thing is I am a Builder myself so why would I hire another contractor, or name myself for doing the works on my own house ? Are they chancing their arm here to keep in the house for another 3 months while I draught up another eviction notice and wait another 3 months, or am I well within my rights to plough ahead next week with the eviction and works if that’s all they could find.
I’ve done everything through the books and in proper order.
The words “if any” I would have thought would favour my argument now if they’re trying to be smart about it.
Any advice please.
Thank you0
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charleville wrote: »Hi,
I gave my tenant 4 months notice last December (note - I only had to give 3 legally) as to help them with a bit more time to find something.
We intend on renovating the house and adding in an extra room/extension and doing up the whole house (it hasn’t been touched in years).
She is due to move out next weekend and has been to a homeless advice clinic somewhere, they have supposedly found a clause in my eviction letter that I did not state “the name of the contractor, if any, employed to carry out the intended works”
Thing is I am a Builder myself so why would I hire another contractor, or name myself for doing the works on my own house ? Are they chancing their arm here to keep in the house for another 3 months while I draught up another eviction notice and wait another 3 months, or am I well within my rights to plough ahead next week with the eviction and works if that’s all they could find.
I’ve done everything through the books and in proper order.
The words “if any” I would have thought would favour my argument now if they’re trying to be smart about it.
Any advice please.
Thank you
Welcome to Ireland , where owning property and letting it out is as good as giving it away forever.
And where helping someone out will result in them using it to screw you instead.
So glad my tenant left themselves but I'm not renting it out again. It will be short term lets from now on or leave it empty
I wish you luck.
I think you are right on the wording. This is simple delay tactics from threshold and the tenant. Now the rtb will take an age to go der it, and then there will be something else. Could years, literally.0 -
charleville wrote: »Hi,
I gave my tenant 4 months notice last December (note - I only had to give 3 legally) as to help them with a bit more time to find something.
We intend on renovating the house and adding in an extra room/extension and doing up the whole house (it hasn’t been touched in years).
She is due to move out next weekend and has been to a homeless advice clinic somewhere, they have supposedly found a clause in my eviction letter that I did not state “the name of the contractor, if any, employed to carry out the intended works”
Thing is I am a Builder myself so why would I hire another contractor, or name myself for doing the works on my own house ? Are they chancing their arm here to keep in the house for another 3 months while I draught up another eviction notice and wait another 3 months, or am I well within my rights to plough ahead next week with the eviction and works if that’s all they could find.
I’ve done everything through the books and in proper order.
The words “if any” I would have thought would favour my argument now if they’re trying to be smart about it.
Any advice please.
Thank you
If you are a registered builder show them proof of same and tell them you are doing the work yourself.
They are chancing their arm but if you try get them out they will take a case to the rtb. If you are happy your notice was valid then you take a case to the rtb yourself once the period has passed.0 -
The Student wrote: »If you are a registered builder show them proof of same and tell them you are doing the work yourself.
They are chancing their arm but if you try get them out they will take a case to the rtb. If you are happy your notice was valid then you take a case to the rtb yourself once the period has passed.
A fat lot of good that is going to do. If it wasn't in the original notice, then the notice is invalid. No good saying months after the event that you are a registered builder. Better send a new notice and get it right this time.0 -
A fat lot of good that is going to do. If it wasn't in the original notice, then the notice is invalid. No good saying months after the event that you are a registered builder. Better send a new notice and get it right this time.
Just curious - Why is the notice invalid?
What does "if any" mean in the notice which is on the RTB website?
Does the landlord need to book a building contractor months in advance to make the notice valid?
what would happen if a contractor was booked and then the tenant does not leave?0 -
OP, I had a long discussion with a senior member of this forum almost two years ago about your kind of notice (which I used in a different form since the law was more flexible 4 years ago to perform a big renovation of two flats: floors changed, walls and floors water proofed, new bathrooms, new electrical, new water piping, the lot). I had a building contractor so I did not have your issue. The situation was a bit different than now. One tenant was clever and got the apartment back, the other one was stupid and while out he received another termination and he was gone.charleville wrote: »Hi,
I gave my tenant 4 months notice last December (note - I only had to give 3 legally) as to help them with a bit more time to find something.
We intend on renovating the house and adding in an extra room/extension and doing up the whole house (it hasn’t been touched in years).
She is due to move out next weekend and has been to a homeless advice clinic somewhere, they have supposedly found a clause in my eviction letter that I did not state “the name of the contractor, if any, employed to carry out the intended works”
Thing is I am a Builder myself so why would I hire another contractor, or name myself for doing the works on my own house ? Are they chancing their arm here to keep in the house for another 3 months while I draught up another eviction notice and wait another 3 months, or am I well within my rights to plough ahead next week with the eviction and works if that’s all they could find.
I’ve done everything through the books and in proper order.
The words “if any” I would have thought would favour my argument now if they’re trying to be smart about it.
Any advice please.
Thank you
The RTA 2004 as amended in 2015 says in Section 34, Grounds of Termination Table, point 5:
" 5. The landlord intends to substantially refurbish or renovate the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling in a way which requires the dwelling to be vacated for that purpose (and, where planning permission is required for the carrying out of that refurbishment or renovation, that permission has been obtained) and the notice of termination (the “notice”) contains or is accompanied, in writing, by a statement—
(a) specifying the nature of the intended works, and
(aa) that, in a case where planning permission has been obtained, a copy of the planning permission is attached to the notice or statement,
(ab) that planning permission is not required and he or she has complied with the requirements of section 35(9)(b), and,
(b) that the landlord, by virtue of the notice, is required to offer to the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling if the contact details requirement is complied with and the following conditions are satisfied—
(i) the dwelling becomes available for reletting, and ..."
In section 35(9) referred above it says:
"(9) A notice of termination in respect of a termination made on the ground specified in paragraph 5 of the Table, or the statement referred to in that paragraph shall—
(a) for the purposes of the statement referred to in subparagraph (aa) of paragraph 5 of the Table, be accompanied by a copy of the planning permission required for the carrying out of the refurbishment or renovation of the dwelling concerned, and
(b) specify, where planning permission is not required—
(i) the name of the contractor, if any, employed to carry out the intended works, and
(ii) the dates on which the intended works are to be carried out and the proposed duration of the period in which those works are to be carried out."
All of this is reflected in the sample termination notices and statement provided by the RTB here:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Disputes/Sample%20Notice%20of%20Termination%20-%20Substantially%20Refurbish%20or%20Renovate.docx
As you can see in the underlined text above, the statement is perfectly valid without any contractor name!
Most people at Threshold or most other Irish NGOs who live on the business of helping "homeless" people (read an industry using public money to live on the skin of the state and the landlords) have only some very superficial understanding of the law probably received through some very superficial training. The only thing they do know (due to the system being absolutely flawed) is that, by suggesting to the tenant to overhold, the tenant will most likely pay no consequences and will stay more time.
Some people told you to take a case to the RTB on the first day of overholding, but I shall give you the opposite advice since I have gone through 5 RTB adjudications (4 out 5 to terminate tenancies of tenants who went to Threshold to try to find a way out). The last one was just a few weeks ago. Going to the RTB is a massive pain in the ... for a landlord that is busy with his business and family, if you want to win the case you have to practically abandon business and family for a full week (or more depending on the case) to prepare the casefile and attend the hearing. There was a poster in an old post that said an RTB adjudication hearing is trench warfare (and he was 100% correct!): the tenant at such stage has become your enemy and you have to be massively brutal when presenting evidence and at the oral hearing. The adjudicator will always try to protect the tenant: when he/she will see that the tenant case is desperate (the last one was really desperate with three valid termination notices and hundreds of euros of damages requested which is a strategy that works very well with working tenants and really good at counteracting Threshold "representatives" strategies) he/she will try to convince you to accept an agreement (i.e. give more time to the tenant and forgive the damages to try to avoid an appeal: last adjudicator/barrister just told me straight in the face).
Given the considerations above, my suggestion is to go back to the tenant, explain her the law (print it out) and negotiate more time for her, but not just words from her who are worth nothing, ask her to sign a termination notice on her side with the date you have agreed with her. Remember that as a minimum you will loose at least 5-6 additional weeks just with the first phase of the RTB, so you know where to start your negotiation (with an appeal you will loose at a minimum 3-4 additional months to the 5-6 weeks). Of course if she refuses (trying to be really too smart like the Threshold employees) or if she fails to vacate on the date you guys negotiated, open an RTB adjudication on the first day of expiry of the notice. Remember that in the second case you will have a massively strong hand at the RTB since she would have written the termination notice, in any case request that in the finding of facts of the adjudication your damages due to the delay in starting the work are clearly stated and can be discounted from deposit, this is usually the trigger that makes the tenant think hard about vacating if she is not on social welfare.0 -
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Thank you so much for such a lengthy and valuable reply... it is much appreciated believe me.
I am going to attach the eviction letter if you could see that what we have written is ok ?
I do genuinely think they are chancing their arm (focus ireland in this case-advising), but legally we’ve done everything what we thought to be correct so as such I would again legally know what right we have to terminate next week.
I will have another read of your reply properly over the weekend and also any other advice you may have.
As I said she has had 4 months notice and it is funnily enough only the week before eviction this has came up.
I’ve attached my eviction notice below
Thank you0 -
Also, my tenant is insisting that it is not her fault and that she is actually ready to move out,
she is saying that the council made her go to focus ireland for help and then they told her about the “Claus”, and that if she doesn’t fight it that she now technically has 3 months extra in the house then She won’t be accepted on the homeless list if she moves out next week.
Am I being spun a yarn...0 -
charleville wrote: »Also, my tenant is insisting that it is not her fault and that she is actually ready to move out,
she is saying that the council made her go to focus ireland for help and then they told her about the “Claus”, and that if she doesn’t fight it that she now technically has 3 months extra in the house then She won’t be accepted on the homeless list if she moves out next week.
Am I being spun a yarn...
That is part of council policy. They will tell the tenant to hang on for dear life. Until the sheriff is coming, the council will not re-house the tenant.0 -
charleville wrote: »The words “if any” I would have thought would favour my argument now if they’re trying to be smart about
as would I.
RTB next stop, maybe they could confirm the validity of the notice before you reset the clock.0 -
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Thinking about it, don't issues with the validity of the notice have to be raised with the RTB within 28 days of receipt?
OP did your notice mention that specific part in your notice to the tenant?
Checklist to ensure the Notice of Termination is valid:
--//--
State that any issue as to the validity of the notice may be referred to the RTB within 28 days of the receipt of the notice.
--//--
Source: https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/checklist-for-landlord-serving-a-valid-notice-of-termination0 -
Thinking about it, don't issues with the validity of the notice have to be raised with the RTB within 28 days of receipt?
OP did your notice mention that specific part in your notice to the tenant?
Checklist to ensure the Notice of Termination is valid:
--//--
State that any issue as to the validity of the notice may be referred to the RTB within 28 days of the receipt of the notice.
--//--
Source: https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/checklist-for-landlord-serving-a-valid-notice-of-termination
Yes, This was stated and written in to the notice originally.. what’s to stop me counter arguing with regards things that have not been upheld or done on the tenants end!
Who would I argue the case to, my tenant ? Focus ireland ? And how ?
As I said, notice was from 1st December and it’s only today that an “issue” has been raised.0 -
Please read the detailed PM I sent you. You would argue your case always against your tenant unless you let the property directly to the council (in such case it would be very different), but my undestanding is that you have a lease with your tenant.charleville wrote: »Thinking about it, don't issues with the validity of the notice have to be raised with the RTB within 28 days of receipt?
OP did your notice mention that specific part in your notice to the tenant?
Checklist to ensure the Notice of Termination is valid:
--//--
State that any issue as to the validity of the notice may be referred to the RTB within 28 days of the receipt of the notice.
--//--
Source: https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/checklist-for-landlord-serving-a-valid-notice-of-termination
Yes, This was stated and written in to the notice originally.. what’s to stop me counter arguing with regards things that have not been upheld or done on the tenants end!
Who would I argue the case to, my tenant ? Focus ireland ? And how ?
As I said, notice was from 1st December and it’s only today that an “issue” has been raised.
The 28 days are for the tenant to argue the validity of the notice, the law allows the tenant to overhold and still question the validity of the notice after overholding. The RTA is a real piece of .... (whatever you want to put)
Forgot to say how. Go to the RTB portal where you registered your tenancy online (this is the fastest and cheapest): https://portal.rtb.ie/
Once you login there is a menu called Disputes, you create a new dispute (select adjudication, not mediation), fill in the details, pay 15 EUR and wait for the RTB case officer call around a week later.0 -
Personally, I'd lodge a dispute with the RTB.0
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A fat lot of good that is going to do. If it wasn't in the original notice, then the notice is invalid. No good saying months after the event that you are a registered builder. Better send a new notice and get it right this time.
The OP is doing the works themselves. That's not a contractor. The notice doesn't require a named contractor if there is no contractor.0 -
Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »The OP is doing the works themselves. That's not a contractor. The notice doesn't require a named contractor if there is no contractor.
The o/p didn't say that in his notice.He said nothing about a contractor.0 -
OP, if the attached document is the full termination notice, I see one errors in it.
You don't mention section 35(9)(b)(ii), the dates and duration of the proposed work.0 -
OP, if the attached document is the full termination notice, I see one errors in it.
You don't mention section 35(9)(b)(ii), the dates and duration of the proposed work.
It mentions in section (a) “if the dwelling becomes available for re letting within the period of 6 months from the expiry of the period of notice required to be given by notice”
Is this not the same thing or sufficient ?0 -
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charleville wrote: »It mentions in section (a) “if the dwelling becomes available for re letting within the period of 6 months from the expiry of the period of notice required to be given by notice”
Is this not the same thing or sufficient ?
No. The tenant might want to arrange temporary accommodation during the works with a view to coming back.0 -
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No, that's a general clause, that you have to re-offer the house to the original tenant, onec you put it back on the rental market within 6 months.charleville wrote: »It mentions in section (a) “if the dwelling becomes available for re letting within the period of 6 months from the expiry of the period of notice required to be given by notice”
Is this not the same thing or sufficient ?
In case of evictions for refurbishment, you have to specify, what is being done, who is doing it (if you don't need planning permission and you use a contractor) and how long you think it will take.
That makes sense, as without it, the first part (re-offer for the first 6 months) doesn't make sense, as it is only reasonable if the tenant can plan for it. The re-offer is not good, if the tenant already has a new 1 year lease, but if he knows that it will only take 2 months for example, he can plan for it, to bridge this time and then move back in.0 -
This is the very reason that landlords are choosing to Air b&b rather than long leases. This is about the silliest thing I've ever heard. The op is doing things in the correct manor but is being hamstrung by a quango.:(0
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Odyssey 2005 wrote: »The op is doing things in the correct manor but is being hamstrung by a quango.:(
The o/p is not doing things in the correct manor. He has brought all this on himself. He leased to a council funded tenant. He made a mess of his notice of termination. He can't have his cake and eat it.0 -
The o/p is not doing things in the correct manor. He has brought all this on himself. He leased to a council funded tenant. He made a mess of his notice of termination. He can't have his cake and eat it.
Are you actually serious ??
Sounds like you need a coffee.. I’ve done everything correctly, I’m not having any cake here0 -
The o/p is not doing things in the correct manor. He has brought all this on himself. He leased to a council funded tenant. He made a mess of his notice of termination. He can't have his cake and eat it.
Agreed!
Personally this is the issue I have with the current private rental market and little to no council housing.
Council funded tenants usually are low income or no income family's with kids, kids that need to be part of a community go to local schools etc.
By the sounds of it the tenant is in a catch 22 scenario, the council is only going to help the tenant if they need to and will do what they can to keep the tenant in a home by whatever means hey can.
Curious is the tenant coming back to the property after the refurb?0 -
ShowMeTheCash wrote: »Agreed!
Personally this is the issue I have with the current private rental market and little to no council housing.
Council funded tenants usually are low income or no income family's with kids, kids that need to be part of a community go to local schools etc.
By the sounds of it the tenant is in a catch 22 scenario, the council is only going to help the tenant if they need to and will do what they can to keep the tenant in a home by whatever means hey can.
Curious is the tenant coming back to the property after the refurb?
The tenant actually works and is only part funded by rent allowance, so she’s not fully council/social welfare etc, honestly she has been decent and that’s why I’ve tried to be same with already giving her extra notice etc.
She knows the property will be offered back to her but she will need to go on the hap scheme now as her income is not sufficient, and the problem is it could be that the hap will not allow her to take such a big house (4 bedrooms) as she only needs 2 bedrooms for her needs.
Honestly what else am I supposed to do only to be trying to do things correctly which is what I’ve done ? I’m a good landlord compared to most, anything that was ever needed in the house was always done and we keep everything above board etc, so by rights it’s not really fair that I should be getting screwed either is it ?
As I said... I’m not eating any cake here0 -
charleville wrote: »The tenant actually works and is only part funded by rent allowance, so she’s not fully council/social welfare etc, honestly she has been decent and that’s why I’ve tried to be same with already giving her extra notice etc.
She knows the property will be offered back to her but she will need to go on the hap scheme now as her income is not sufficient, and the problem is it could be that the hap will not allow her to take such a big house (4 bedrooms) as she only needs 2 bedrooms for her needs.
Honestly what else am I supposed to do only to be trying to do things correctly which is what I’ve done ? I’m a good landlord compared to most, anything that was ever needed in the house was always done and we keep everything above board etc, so by rights it’s not really fair that I should be getting screwed either is it ?
As I said... I’m not eating any cake here
But you want too!
The council will not care about the semantics of the particular case.
Your cake and eat it has do to with long term lease then deciding to remove your tenant when it suits you.
Why are you asking your tenant to leave?
What is the motivation for the renovation and adding more rooms?
My guess is you want to be able to get more for the rental? (it also increases the value of your asset)
Or do you plan to keep the rental cost the same?
In some places in UK anyone who is in a council house whereby the council house is to be renovated, the council will place them in a temporary council accommodation as close to the original accommodation as possible until the work is complete.
This is to try and minimize the impact on kids, school travel, public transport and even someone's employment if they are employed.
The problem you have stumbled upon is you are trying to operate a business in a sphere where there can be huge social implications to another human so to a degree there needs to be balance. Asking a tenant to leave because you want to make more money or increase the value of your asset would be a case of having your cake and eat it.
Hap should really never been allowed to happen or at least not to the degree in which it has happened. Ireland basically stopped developing council housing and opened the whole thing up to the private sector which has turned into a bit of a mess!0 -
charleville wrote: »...
We intend on renovating the house and adding in an extra room/extension and doing up the whole house (it hasn’t been touched in years)....
If you leave it you're a slum landlord. Improve it and you're a greedy fat cat
It's only a social issue because landlords are forced to take social tenants and there is a housing crisis largely artificially created not by landlords.
Threshold really are encouraging you to sell up to a vulture fund or to a private buyer. Thus reducing rental stock even further.
The op only choice is to do as advised and stay the course of the process. It's just time consuming and expensive.0 -
If you leave it you're a slum landlord. Improve it and you're a greedy fat cat
Requires a little more nuance. Are you ready? maintain the property and you should be fine and I mean maintain without pushing the rental up!It's only a social issue because landlords are forced to take social tenants and there is a housing crisis largely artificially created not by landlords.
No one is forcing you to rent the property at all. You want to get involved in a social sensitive business that is on you.Threshold really are encouraging you to sell up to a vulture fund or to a private buyer. Thus reducing rental stock even further.
Country should go back to investing in council homes, the private market is a mess, you have greedy landlord, you have landlords who are renting out houses they bought but they cannot afford, you have foreign investors buying up prime real-estate and pushing rental and housing prices up then vulture funds which I liken to pay day lenders... the entire model is broken!The op only choice is to do as advised and stay the course of the process. It's just time consuming and expensive.
OP just need to rewrite the eviction notice, maybe have a solicitor go over it to ensure it will satisfy the council. Once the council are satisfied the tenant will be happy and the OP will get his house back in 3 months time.0 -
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ShowMeTheCash wrote: »But you want too!
The council will not care about the semantics of the particular case.
Your cake and eat it has do to with long term lease then deciding to remove your tenant when it suits you.
Why are you asking your tenant to leave?
What is the motivation for the renovation and adding more rooms?
My guess is you want to be able to get more for the rental? (it also increases the value of your asset)
Or do you plan to keep the rental cost the same?
In some places in UK anyone who is in a council house whereby the council house is to be renovated, the council will place them in a temporary council accommodation as close to the original accommodation as possible until the work is complete.
This is to try and minimize the impact on kids, school travel, public transport and even someone's employment if they are employed.
The problem you have stumbled upon is you are trying to operate a business in a sphere where there can be huge social implications to another human so to a degree there needs to be balance. Asking a tenant to leave because you want to make more money or increase the value of your asset would be a case of having your cake and eat it.
Hap should really never been allowed to happen or at least not to the degree in which it has happened. Ireland basically stopped developing council housing and opened the whole thing up to the private sector which has turned into a bit of a mess!
I take what you are saying... but what happens if I cannot access my property to carry out necessary renovation and upgrade works and let’s say for example that a ceiling falls in or the tenant gets hurt from something that should have been fixed or done and sues me ? Or a rad leaks and floods my house (yes I have insurance but that’s not the point) I could go on, but who will be responsible then when I was not allowed to access my own property to carry out upgrade and necessary works ?
It’s all well and good to bash the landlord because of the homeless situation currently but it can’t be all one sided either.
Peoples situations change over years for various reasons and I’m sure I speak for a lot of the decent landlords, but we’re not all greedy vultures maybe we need to do things out of necessity too, we are people with bills the exact same as the next person, it’s my house so why can’t I ? I’m responsible for it if it goes on fire or falls down, so I need to be responsible for doing any works I feel need to be done.
Back to the original post but what I’m hearing here is that I will have to give another letter of termination.. if you can be helpful now can someone pm me what exact details I should write on this letter so as it cannot be denied or found to be flawed in anyway.
Thank you for your advice and input it is all taken on board.0
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