time change

CelticRambler

Kailani Fluffy Vial wrote: »

I am interested in practical examples of where the various options have been impemented, successfully or otherwise, in places comparable to Ireland.

Comparable in what way? Latitude? Geographical proximity to other time zones? Size and demographics of the population? Professional activity of that population? Interconnectedness of business to other time zones of greater or less than 2 hours difference? Countries that used to have DST and now don't? Some of the above? All of the above?

I think you'll have a hard job finding any useful practical examples - other than those already cited on this thread, i.e. that millions of people quite happily live and work alongside a different timezone to where their bed is, and it doesn't fry their brain or mess up their biological clock. :rolleyes:

Cee-Jay-Cee

If DST was changed from the 1st weekend in December to the last weekend in January it would make more sense but the current idiotic nonsense of changing the clocks at the end of fvcking October and again at the end of March has to stop. It serves no purpose for 75% of the period. But because this hasn’t been managed well and alternatives weren't looked, I’d stick with summer time if we had to vote on it. The unfortunate thing is though, we have a bunch of clueless politicians who will make the decision whether to remain on summertime or wintertime without consulting the population which is even more angering than the whole changing the clocks twice a year nonsense.

dxhound2005

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

If DST was changed from the 1st weekend in December to the last weekend in January it would make more sense but the current idiotic nonsense of changing the clocks at the end of fvcking October and again at the end of March has to stop. It serves no purpose for 75% of the period. But because this hasn’t been managed well and alternatives weren't looked, I’d stick with summer time if we had to vote on it. The unfortunate thing is though, we have a bunch of clueless politicians who will make the decision whether to remain on summertime or wintertime without consulting the population which is even more angering than the whole changing the clocks twice a year nonsense.

They did consult. 4.5 million people gave their opinion.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52018SC0406&from=EN

Dog Murphy

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They did consult. 4.5 million people gave their opinion.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52018SC0406&from=EN

A massively flawed survey.

The question was asked that, if the biannual time switch was to be abolished, would respondents favour permanent summertime or permanent standard (winter) time.

Understandably most people preferred permanent summertime it being called summertime lends a massive degree of bias towards it.

What will happen is we'll get rid of changing the clocks and then a whole load of people will start whinging that it was better when we were changing the clocks and we'll have a few years or so of this and then people will want a change back to having daylight savings time.

Its a one-hour switch twice a year which is barely even a mild inconvenience and yet some people for whatever reason have a bee in their bonnet about it and want it gone for the sake of it.

Having more daylight at the beginning of the day for me makes more sense as at least people can have some sunlight at the start of the day which doesn't make it seem so miserable, going home in the dark isn't half a bad as going into work when it's pitch black because coming home from work is and optimistic feeling already whereas going in to work is a miserable feeling for most people so combining that with extra darkness for longer period of time wouldn't be as good a situation in my opinion.

dxhound2005

Dog Murphy wrote: »

A massively flawed survey.

The question was asked that, if the biannual time switch was to be abolished, would respondents favour permanent summertime or permanent standard (winter) time.

Understandably most people preferred permanent summertime it being called summertime lends a massive degree of bias towards it.

What will happen is we'll get rid of changing the clocks and then a whole load of people will start whinging that it was better when we were changing the clocks and we'll have a few years or so of this and then people will want a change back to having daylight savings time.

Its a one-hour switch twice a year which is barely even a mild inconvenience and yet some people for whatever reason have a bee in their bonnet about it and want it gone for the sake of it.

Having more daylight at the beginning of the day for me makes more sense as at least people can have some sunlight at the start of the day which doesn't make it seem so miserable, going home in the dark isn't half a bad as going into work when it's pitch black because coming home from work is and optimistic feeling already whereas going in to work is a miserable feeling for most people so combining that with extra darkness for longer period of time wouldn't be as good a situation in my opinion.

Some people are at home all day. Some are going home or going to work at mid night or noon or all sorts of times. The survey is flawed because it does not suit your particular lifestyle.

If you read the history of DST you will see it is just over 100 years old, and has been abandoned before. It was a wartime measure, and revived during the oil crisis. There seems to be a natural human urge against changing the status quo in a lot of areas, but they soon get used to the new regime.

CelticRambler

Dog Murphy wrote: »

Having more daylight at the beginning of the day for me makes more sense as at least people can have some sunlight at the start of the day which doesn't make it seem so miserable, going home in the dark isn't half a bad as going into work when it's pitch black because coming home from work is and optimistic feeling already whereas going in to work is a miserable feeling for most people so combining that with extra darkness for longer period of time wouldn't be as good a situation in my opinion.

People who are miserable going in to work in the morning aren't going to be any less miserable because of an hour's difference in the light ... But if it's really that much of a problem for them, they should put in for flexi-time, or change jobs. Or maybe work nights - that way they'd have a whole day to enjoy the sunlight. :cool:

rogue-entity

Dog Murphy wrote: »

Having more daylight at the beginning of the day for me makes more sense as at least people can have some sunlight at the start of the day which doesn't make it seem so miserable, going home in the dark isn't half a bad as going into work when it's pitch black because coming home from work is and optimistic feeling already whereas going in to work is a miserable feeling for most people so combining that with extra darkness for longer period of time wouldn't be as good a situation in my opinion.

During the Winter, I don't see natural daylight during the weekdays because of the clock shift, its depressing and miserable for four months. If there's any time of the year I'd rather have 'daylight saving' it's then coming home in daylight is far more pleasant.

If I had to choose, I'd aim for UTC+1.

Rodin

I'd personally prefer to stay with summertime all year. Won't see daylight after work now until March.

Dog Murphy

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Some people are at home all day. Some are going home or going to work at mid night or noon or all sorts of times. The survey is flawed because it does not suit your particular lifestyle.

If you read the history of DST you will see it is just over 100 years old, and has been abandoned before. It was a wartime measure, and revived during the oil crisis. There seems to be a natural human urge against changing the status quo in a lot of areas, but they soon get used to the new regime.

No I quite clearly explained that the survey is flawed because It gives people the option between something called Summertime and something called Wintertime.

That is what makes the survey flawed.

Try reading people's posts more carefully in future.

dxhound2005

Dog Murphy wrote: »

No I quite clearly explained that the survey is flawed because It gives people the option between something called Summertime and something called Wintertime.

That is what makes the survey flawed.

Try reading people's posts more carefully in future.

That doesn't make it flawed. In the history of DST everywhere as far as I know, that is how the system operates. I am able to understand that calling a time zone Summertime does not solve the problem of diminishing daylight during certain months. You can understand that as well. Why do you think other people do not understand what it means?

Paddy Cow

Dog Murphy wrote: »

No I quite clearly explained that the survey is flawed because It gives people the option between something called Summertime and something called Wintertime.

That is what makes the survey flawed.

Try reading people's posts more carefully in future.

It doesn't matter what you call them. The majority of people are choosing the hour of light in the evening, rather than the morning.

Dog Murphy

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It doesn't matter what you call them. The majority of people are choosing the hour of light in the evening, rather than the morning.

If you call one summertime and one wintertime and ask them to choose between them there is a quite obvious element of bias attached to the names.You want a fair survey you'd have to change the names and have zero mention of wintertime or summertime.

It's like the Super Fun Happy Slide from the Simpsons.

dxhound2005

Dog Murphy wrote: »

If you call one summertime and one wintertime and ask them to choose between them there is a quite obvious element of bias attached to the names.You want a fair survey you'd have to change the names and have zero mention of wintertime or summertime.

It's like the Super Fun Happy Slide from the Simpsons.

I'm allowing that people have the intelligence to know what the question means, if they took the trouble to participate. This was not some instant survey. And the results are not that clear cut either way.

3.5Question 5: Preferred option after abolishing time switch

The question was asked that, if the biannual time switch was to be abolished, would respondents favour permanent summertime or permanent standard (winter) time. Answers show that the overall preferred option is permanent summertime as opposed to permanent wintertime. 2 529 000 of all respondents (56 %) would prefer permanent summertime and 1 648 000 of respondents (36 %) would be in favour of permanent standard (winter) time, if the bi-annual time switch were to be abolished. 377 000 respondents (8 %) have no opinion on this matter.

56% of citizens who answered this question favour the option of “permanent summertime”, while only 32% prefer “permanent wintertime”. The highest share of respondents in favour of “permanent summertime” is in Portugal (79%), Cyprus (73%) and Poland (72%). The highest share of respondents in favour of “permanent wintertime” is in Finland (48%), Denmark (46%) and the Netherlands (45%). An average of 11% across all Member States citizen respondents has expressed no opinion regarding the matter.

beggars_bush

DST
Means we get up an hour earlier (and more) with a one year old

6:30 instead of 7:30.

Paddy Cow

Dog Murphy wrote: »

If you call one summertime and one wintertime and ask them to choose between them there is a quite obvious element of bias attached to the names.You want a fair survey you'd have to change the names and have zero mention of wintertime or summertime.

It's like the Super Fun Happy Slide from the Simpsons.

People are literally being asked if they would prefer to stay on summertime or wintertime and you want to call them something else? That makes no sense. I get it. You would prefer to stay on wintertime. That doesn't mean the people voting for summertime are morons who don't know what they are voting for or are only voting out of bias. The reality is most people would prefer brighter evenings to brighter mornings. It really is that simple.

Dog Murphy

Paddy Cow wrote: »

People are literally being asked if they would prefer to stay on summertime or wintertime and you want to call them something else? That makes no sense. I get it. You would prefer to stay on wintertime. That doesn't mean the people voting for summertime are morons who don't know what they are voting for or are only voting out of bias. The reality is most people would prefer brighter evenings to brighter mornings. It really is that simple.

Again you seem to miss the point.

If you call it wintertime and summertime and give people the option between the 2 it gives a degree of bias to the results of the survey.It is not that difficult to understand.

Call them option A and Option B.

lawred2

Dog Murphy wrote: »

Again you seem to miss the point.

If you call it wintertime and summertime and give people the option between the 2 it gives a degree of bias to the results of the survey.It's not that difficult to understand.

Call them option A and Option B.

Don't think anyone misses the point. It's just not really much of a point.

Why call them anything other than what people already KNOW them to be? People know exactly what 'summer time' means for them in the specific context of clock time.

Even moreso voluntary responders to such a survey

BarryD2

prunudo wrote: »

I've said before in other incarnations of this thread that there is a bit of psychology in this question. Summertime brings memories of sunny weather, holidays and good times. Wintertime, long cold dreary days. I suspect a lot of people will choose the summertime without thinking through the consequences as it sounds more positive. Are they happy for sunrise to be 9.45am (depending on location) in deepest winter.

This is entirely to the point - the very terms 'summertime' and 'wintertime' should be banned because they are pejorative and lead the your average punter to equate them to 'good' and 'bad'.

lawred2

BarryD2 wrote: »

This is entirely to the point - the very terms 'summertime' and 'wintertime' should be banned because they are pejorative and lead the your average punter to equate them to 'good' and 'bad'.

that's not really what pejorative means

BarryD2

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That doesn't mean the people voting for summertime are morons who don't know what they are voting for or are only voting out of bias. The reality is most people would prefer brighter evenings to brighter mornings. It really is that simple.

Perhaps, but I'd wager that the bulk of people who might think this way (assuming they do think about it) are a) urban dwellers and b) on the east coast of Ireland.

For rural dwellers who travel early in the winter mornings on untreated roads with NO Luas or DART or buses it would simply add unnecessary danger. For those out west, they're another half hour behind Dublin again.

Easy to think that way above when there are few consequences.

BarryD2

lawred2 wrote: »

that's not really what pejorative means

?? The use of the term 'wintertime' arguably carries a negative connotation in many people minds and is therefore pejorative. Whilst the use of the term 'summertime' leads people to an equally misleading view.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

BarryD2 wrote: »

Perhaps, but I'd wager that the bulk of people who might think this way (assuming they do think about it) are a) urban dwellers and b) on the east coast of Ireland.

For rural dwellers who travel early in the winter mornings on untreated roads with NO Luas or DART or buses it would simply add unnecessary danger. For those out west, they're another half hour behind Dublin again.

Easy to think that way above when there are few consequences.

We are rural and opted for 'Summer time'. The hour of daylight gained in the morning is soon lost to the shortening days anyway. The roads are still as bad at the time of leaving for work in winter, regardless of an hour's difference. Anybody I spoke to around here favoured the opportunity for an extra hour's daylight in the evening for school runs, sports, driving home from work etc.

And the notion that we opted for Summertime in the feedback survey on the basis of a feelgood factor associated with the term, belies the fact that people had the wherewithal to express their choice based on practicalities and personal preferences.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

BarryD2 wrote: »

?? The use of the term 'wintertime' arguably carries a negative connotation in many people minds and is therefore pejorative. Whilst the use of the term 'summertime' leads people to an equally misleading view.

It's means contempt or disapproval, not misleading.

dxhound2005

BarryD2 wrote: »

?? The use of the term 'wintertime' arguably carries a negative connotation in many people minds and is therefore pejorative. Whilst the use of the term 'summertime' leads people to an equally misleading view.

I think that argument has been thoroughly debunked here. Unless someone wants to own up to not understanding what it means. And again the results of a survey of 4.5 million people gave a mixed view.

CelticRambler

BarryD2 wrote: »

This is entirely to the point - the very terms 'summertime' and 'wintertime' should be banned because they are pejorative and lead the your average punter to equate them to 'good' and 'bad'.

If you have time tomorrow, maybe you should call around to all the travel agents in the area and tell them "Winter Sports" has negative connotations for the average punter ...

While waiting for my spuds to boil earlier, I had a think back over the years trying to remember the various weather-related traffic incidents suffered by me and my immediate family. All of them -
Every
Single
One
- took place during the hours of daylight, and the worst were in the second half of the day. People might well be "optimistic" coming home from work, but they're also tired and distracted ... and if my recollection is anything to go by, also more likely to think that snow/ice only covers the road in the morning.

Dog Murphy

Dog Murphy wrote: »

Its a one-hour switch twice a year which is barely even a mild inconvenience and yet some people for whatever reason have a bee in their bonnet about it and want it gone for the sake of it.

Not so sure on that one. Thought I read somewhere that it fncks with people's circadian rhythyms and is a trigger for loads of borderline ailments. Strokes and heart attacks tend to spike in the days after the change. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not so sure on that one. Thought I read somewhere that it fncks with people's circadian rhythyms and is a trigger for loads of borderline ailments. Strokes and heart attacks tend to spike in the days after the change. I'll see if I can dig it up.

https://www.health.com/sleep/daylight-saving-time-health-risks

raclle

Ayleen Delightful Trucker wrote: »

We are rural and opted for 'Summer time'. The hour of daylight gained in the morning is soon lost to the shortening days anyway. The roads are still as bad at the time of leaving for work in winter, regardless of an hour's difference. Anybody I spoke to around here favoured the opportunity for an extra hour's daylight in the evening for school runs, sports, driving home from work etc.

I prefer an extra hour in the evening too for that exact reason. Who wants it to start getting dark at 4:30pm!

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

Urm has anyone said otherwise?

Actually yes.

lawred2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually yes.

Care to link to those claims?

Dr. Bre

Winter is coming...

AllForIt

I don't know if anyone mentioned it but the sudden instant drop in an hours daylight is quite horrible.

Better Than Christ

The best solution is to put the clocks back every morning and then forward again every evening, thus keeping everybody happy with brighter mornings and evenings.

Paddy Cow

Dog Murphy wrote: »

Again you seem to miss the point.

If you call it wintertime and summertime and give people the option between the 2 it gives a degree of bias to the results of the survey.It is not that difficult to understand.

Call them option A and Option B.

You still have to explain what those options are. A is to stay on wintertime and B is to stay on summertime. How else would you word them?

I'm not missing the point at all. You think people are biased in favour of summer, rather than winter. I am one of those people because I prefer brighter evenings to mornings. Changing the wording isn't going to change my mind. No matter how it's phrased, I'm still going to want to keep the longer evenings.

Paddy Cow

AllForIt wrote: »

I don't know if anyone mentioned it but the sudden instant drop in an hours daylight is quite horrible.

I hate November for exactly this reason and find November very depressing. At least with December there is the Christmas buzz and by the time it gets to January, you can notice a slight stretch in the evenings and it perks me up.

Some people love Winter. They like the dark and cold weather and find comfort in being indoors with a nice fire while listening to the rain outside. I'm not one of those. Sure it's nice once or twice but not 5 months of that bullsh!t. Give me the summer anytime. Bright weather perks me up and I'm way more motivated to do things.

Paddy Cow

BarryD2 wrote: »

Perhaps, but I'd wager that the bulk of people who might think this way (assuming they do think about it) are a) urban dwellers and b) on the east coast of Ireland.

For rural dwellers who travel early in the winter mornings on untreated roads with NO Luas or DART or buses it would simply add unnecessary danger. For those out west, they're another half hour behind Dublin again.

Easy to think that way above when there are few consequences.

I'm out West and grew up in a rural community and still chose summertime. The last thread we had on this I threw up a poll and 80% were in favour of summertime.

Why are wintertime advocates so hell bent on putting down summertime advocates by suggesting they are just biased or not thinking it through? Why can't you just accept that people see it differently? You are so convinced you are right and everyone else is wrong. I really hope they do keep summertime and if it turns out to be a disaster I will hold my hands up and admit it but right now, I don't see it being an issue where the roads become super dangerous and we suddenly have loads more accidents.

The only half decent argument I've seen is that we would be out of sync with the UK and that could make things awkward for people living around the border. If we stayed on the current system I could live with that but if the EU push to remove daylight savings and the UK don't, we'll still be on different time zones for half the year. I would rather that be winter, rather than summertime.

prunudo

As much as I like the current set up and if push came to shove, I would choose all year 'summertime', not that I'd be happy with up to 9.45am sunrises in winter but because it would be a shame to loose the long summer evenings and with all year 'wintertime', the sun would rise way to early in the height of summer.
Its a very divisive subject with both sides having strong opinions. My own job involves working outside and as is, during winter I can't start till 8.30-9am in the mornings during the darkest weeks. All year summertime means that will be 9.30-10 and you can add another hour to that if there's frost. When I've given my view I've been giving the usual replies with, sure work later or use lights or get another job, unfortunately life is never that simple. So don't think its fair to say that wintertime lovers don't see summertime lovers point of view anymore than the opposite way around.
At the end of the day if they do go down the route of a single time zone I'd vote for abolishing dst and I'd have to adapt to make the most of the late starts during winter months.

Fr Tod Umptious

prunudo wrote: »

As much as I like the current set up and if push came to shove, I would choose all year 'summertime', not that I'd be happy with up to 9.45am sunrises in winter but because it would be a shame to loose the long summer evenings and with all year 'wintertime', the sun would rise way to early in the height of summer.
Its a very divisive subject with both sides having strong opinions. My own job involves working outside and as is, during winter I can't start till 8.30-9am in the mornings during the darkest weeks. All year summertime means that will be 9.30-10 and you can add another hour to that if there's frost. When I've given my view I've been giving the usual replies with, sure work later or use lights or get another job, unfortunately life is never that simple. So don't think its fair to say that wintertime lovers don't see summertime lovers point of view anymore than the opposite way around.
At the end of the day if they do go down the route of a single time zone I'd vote for abolishing dst and I'd have to adapt to make the most of the late starts during winter months.

I too would go with summer time if push came to shove, because I do like it being bright until near 11pm in high summer.
All year winter would mean, in high summer, extra daylight at about 4am, which is of no use to anyone.

But the winter mornings would really suck.

Because of our geographic location some sort of clock changing is the ideal solution.

But those bloody Europeans are forcing us to abandon it.

NeinNeinNein

Does anybody know what time it is?

Cee-Jay-Cee

Dog Murphy wrote: »

A massively flawed survey.

The question was asked that, if the biannual time switch was to be abolished, would respondents favour permanent summertime or permanent standard (winter) time.

Understandably most people preferred permanent summertime it being called summertime lends a massive degree of bias towards it.

What will happen is we'll get rid of changing the clocks and then a whole load of people will start whinging that it was better when we were changing the clocks and we'll have a few years or so of this and then people will want a change back to having daylight savings time.

Its a one-hour switch twice a year which is barely even a mild inconvenience and yet some people for whatever reason have a bee in their bonnet about it and want it gone for the sake of it.

Having more daylight at the beginning of the day for me makes more sense as at least people can have some sunlight at the start of the day which doesn't make it seem so miserable, going home in the dark isn't half a bad as going into work when it's pitch black because coming home from work is and optimistic feeling already whereas going in to work is a miserable feeling for most people so combining that with extra darkness for longer period of time wouldn't be as good a situation in my opinion.

I agree to an extent except for the fact that instead of getting bright at 7am and dark at 7 it now gets bright at 6 and dark at 6, where is the sense in that? There is no need to change the clocks till the beginning of December and then back again at the end of January.

Cee-Jay-Cee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They did consult. 4.5 million people gave their opinion.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52018SC0406&from=EN

But our government can still decide to remain on winter time despite the survey results.

dxhound2005

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

But our government can still decide to remain on winter time despite the survey results.

They can. Probably a big majority of people would shrug their shoulders and think it is no big deal either way. There seems to be a majority for summertime among those who care.

Referring back to the supposed bias towards summertime in the survey. As well as indicating their choice, the participants were asked the reasons for their choice. The results do not support the view that it was an unthinking response based on summertime sounding nicer than wintertime.

3.3Question 3: Reason for being in favour or against the time switch

Respondents were asked to indicate a reason for their position in favour or against the biannual time switch. Respondents could choose from a pre-defined list of possible reasons as well as "other".

The main reason highlighted by all respondents that were in favour of abolishing the current arrangements is human health (43%), followed by lack of energy saving (20%), while for those in favour of keeping the current arrangements the main reason highlighted is leisure activities in the evening (42%).

And as for the Europeans forcing us to change, it was the British who forced us to start changing our clocks.

lawred2

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They can. Probably a big majority of people would shrug their shoulders and think it is no big deal either way. There seems to be a majority for summertime among those who care.

Referring back to the supposed bias towards summertime in the survey. As well as indicating their choice, the participants were asked the reasons for their choice. The results do not support the view that it was an unthinking response based on summertime sounding nicer than wintertime.

3.3Question 3: Reason for being in favour or against the time switch

Respondents were asked to indicate a reason for their position in favour or against the biannual time switch. Respondents could choose from a pre-defined list of possible reasons as well as "other".

The main reason highlighted by all respondents that were in favour of abolishing the current arrangements is human health (43%), followed by lack of energy saving (20%), while for those in favour of keeping the current arrangements the main reason highlighted is leisure activities in the evening (42%).

And as for the Europeans forcing us to change, it was the British who forced us to start changing our clocks.

Leisure arrangements? I don't get that one as a reason to keep the current arrangement

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Why would that be down to the time change? It went backwards.

that post was in march 2018

TomSweeney

It's gas how we don't even really notice it anymore, as phones, watches all do it automatically now.
I even remember I would get a message on Windows 95 warning me of the upcoming change..

TheFortField

On a slightly serious note - if you experience low mood or SAD after the time change, taking a good Vitamin D3 supplement during the winter months might be helpful.

BrianD3

Just looked at my post from this time last year where I mentioned commuting and suggested that if more people could work from home, the lack of daylight would be less of an issue for many. And here we are with thousands working from home thanks to the Coronapocalypse.

Edit: apologies for dragging up an old thread - thought I was replying to the DST one.

Ted_YNWA

This is the one you want Brian.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115044249#post115044249

Closing this one.