How in the name of Jesus can we get a mortgage?

blondeonblonde

What areas have you been looking at OP? I have to agree with some of the other posters, your budget puts you well within reach of a 2 bed apartment in many nice areas of Dublin.

Of course the 3.5 times rule isn't necessarily how much you will actually get once you approach the bank.

Did you get approval in principle from the bank?

Klonker

There are a load of 2 and 3 beds in Dublin within your budget, just not the expensive areas you want to live in. Well I'm sorry you just can't afford them, that's just how it is.

Just as an example I bought a 3 bed
apartment for 280k this year in what I'd call a decent area and a not to bad commute (door to door in less than 1 hour, door to city centre 35 min).

utmbuilder

Join a gang and move to finglas great bargains

Captain Flaps

mloc123 wrote: »

Realisticaly they will now qualify for an exception with that combined income.

I just did and our combined income isn't a million miles off. 4.5x exemption rate, got the word Friday morning.

Also OP, for 330 you'd get a decent 2 bed gaff in a not terrible part of the greater walkinstown/crumlin/kimmage area, we viewed quite a few around there and saw plenty we'd be happy with - and my partner refers to me as a 'south dublin snob', so we weren't looking at hovels either

Mrs OBumble

If you're only earning 75k between you then i don't think you are earning enough to take on a mortgage outside the 3.5 rule.

Because .... you won't be able to cope with repayments on only one income if one loses their jobor gets sick.

Look further out.

mloc123

Captain Flaps wrote: »

I just did and our combined income isn't a million miles off. 4.5x exemption rate, got the word Friday morning.

Also OP, for 330 you'd get a decent 2 bed gaff in a not terrible part of the greater walkinstown/crumlin/kimmage area, we viewed quite a few around there and saw plenty we'd be happy with - and my partner refers to me as a 'south dublin snob', so we weren't looking at hovels either

I am surprised by that... but all cases vary. Maybe you have good potential to see income improve in the short term or have a strong savings record etc.. the general rule is that you need to be a higher earner to get LTI exception.

mloc123

mloc123 wrote: »

I am surprised by that... but all cases vary. Maybe you have good potential to see income improve in the short term or have a strong savings record etc.. the general rule is that you need to be a higher earner to get LTI exception.

The op said that one of them has a public service job. This will be 100% secure and will have salary increases set out in advance. Banks also like people with very secure jobs as in the ops case they know that at least one of the couple wont ever need to worry about losing a job so in these instances I would not be surprised to see some exemptions given too.

myshirt

mloc123 wrote: »

I am surprised by that... but all cases vary. Maybe you have good potential to see income improve in the short term or have a strong savings record etc.. the general rule is that you need to be a higher earner to get LTI exception.

I'm very, very surprised by it also.

Are we moving the dial more towards poor lending decisions? Perhaps, but we don't have enough info here to be fair.

For me, the starting point would be 100k of a combined income, or 80k of a combined income with a 20% deposit. Something less than that doesn't taste right. We've moved on a bit from less than two years ago when KBC said they wouldn't give an exemption to anyone, regardless of the circumstances!

zig

One More Toy wrote: »

We are happy here, dublin is our home.

We are living like paupers already for topping up the downpayment and paying high-ish rents as it is. Yes we are f**** miserable

I think you gotta decide which is more important. People move out of necessity and well being. Ireland is a small country, you could go to Dublin every week from anywhere in the country if you really wanted.

Captain Flaps

mloc123 wrote: »

I am surprised by that... but all cases vary. Maybe you have good potential to see income improve in the short term or have a strong savings record etc.. the general rule is that you need to be a higher earner to get LTI exception.

We went with a broker who said based on our salaries and industries (I'm in marketing, she's in pharmaceutical sciences) we were a good prospect. We've been renting 5 years and had the deposit in cash split between savings and a small amount from inheritance (this helped but wasn't the deciding factor). We also had no existing debts (cheap cars both paid off, credit card paid off each month etc. We were in a strong enough position but even at that with the 4.5x salary our mortgage will only be 100 more a month than we paid in rent (obviously other factors will add to this but in general it's manageable).

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

I'm very, very surprised by it also.

Are we moving the dial more towards poor lending decisions? Perhaps, but we don't have enough info here to be fair.

For me, the starting point would be 100k of a combined income, or 80k of a combined income with a 20% deposit. Something less than that doesn't taste right. We've moved on a bit from less than two years ago when KBC said they wouldn't give an exemption to anyone, regardless of the circumstances!

Tbh I dont see why there should be minimum salary limits to get an exemption. The higher the salary the higher you will be approved for so an exemption will result in the borrower getting comparatively more than a couple on a smaller combined income getting an exemption. In other words the higher earner earns more but they will borrow much more too especially if getting an exemption while a lower earner earns less but they will borrow less even with an exemption.

Basically my point is that I dont automatically see it as being more risky giving a lower earner an exemption than a higher earner. Things like job secituty, potential for future earning increases, type of industry the person is in etc would more important imo.

For example a teacher and nurse on 40k and 35k respectivaley, 100% secure jobs, guaranteed salary increases every year, fully paid maternity leave, excellent sick pay etc would be far better candidates for an exemption than a couple who are IT contractors earning 70k each.

Tar.Aldarion

mloc123 wrote: »

I am surprised by that... but all cases vary. Maybe you have good potential to see income improve in the short term or have a strong savings record etc.. the general rule is that you need to be a higher earner to get LTI exception.

Anybody have experience with this buying on their own, what kind of salary would you need to have for an exemption? I suppose it depends on industry and increases, for example I'm a software engineer.

ligerdub

Looking at some comments here I'm really wondering how we've accepted such misery as part of what we expect our lives to be.

The OP is a great example of what the average is. These are a couple looking to setup some sort of family life and are very much living on what the average income is for a 2 person household.

So far we've had plenty of comments like: "there are plenty of places to buy within your budget" or "you can buy here and do it up", I'm sorry does money just grow on trees? "You're just going to have to compromise, either buy a shoebox totally unsuitable to family life or live about 50 miles away, what's the problem?" This sort of blunt attitude where we are supposed to think this isn't a suitable complaint is not suitable to a decent society. It's basically saying, well I'm alright so I don't care about you. The fact is that these conditions are not acceptable for people trying to get on with their lives, and is a one-way street to a nation of miserable people, spending all their time coming and going to work or literally being unable to have another child because they simply can't afford it, and I'm not talking 5 or 6 kids I'm talking 2, maybe 3.

This is a couple too, what could an applicant do if they were a single person? The OP has never stated that he/she wanted to buy a luxurious megahome for themselves, more so that they thought they could expect to be able to afford somewhere where they could setup a home suitable to starting a reasonably sized family and live reasonably close to the city and/or places of employment opportunities. I mean correct me if I'm wrong for assuming this wish to be you know.......pretty normal.

Maybe if we spent more time in stopping pretending that this situation is ok and the OP has no real complaint we would all be a bit better off, and it would force the guys supposedly running this country to treat it with a bit more importance.

zig

ligerdub wrote: »

Looking at some comments here I'm really wondering how we've accepted such misery as part of what we expect our lives to be.

The OP is a great example of what the average is. These are a couple looking to setup some sort of family life and are very much living on what the average income is for a 2 person household.

So far we've had plenty of comments like: "there are plenty of places to buy within your budget" or "you can buy here and do it up", I'm sorry does money just grow on trees? "You're just going to have to compromise, either buy a shoebox totally unsuitable to family life or live about 50 miles away, what's the problem?" This sort of blunt attitude where we are supposed to think this isn't a suitable complaint is not suitable to a decent society. It's basically saying, well I'm alright so I don't care about you. The fact is that these conditions are not acceptable for people trying to get on with their lives, and is a one-way street to a nation of miserable people, spending all their time coming and going to work or literally being unable to have another child because they simply can't afford it, and I'm not talking 5 or 6 kids I'm talking 2, maybe 3.

This is a couple too, what could an applicant do if they were a single person? The OP has never stated that he/she wanted to buy a luxurious megahome for themselves, more so that they thought they could expect to be able to afford somewhere where they could setup a home suitable to starting a reasonably sized family and live reasonably close to the city and/or places of employment opportunities. I mean correct me if I'm wrong for assuming this wish to be you know.......pretty normal.

Maybe if we spent more time in stopping pretending that this situation is ok and the OP has no real complaint we would all be a bit better off, and it would force the guys supposedly running this country to treat it with a bit more importance.

Some valid points, but remember a few things...

1. A government can only do so much, before risking a huge backlash, they can influence, but it has to be a balancing act.

2. It was normal and is normal for Irish people and people from all over the world to do what is necessary for a better life. Huge amounts of people leave their families and move countries, others change jobs, others move within a country. Some people move cities just to get a job. Making a suggestion to move 50 or 100 miles out of a city that is now more expensive to live in than London is not an unreasonable suggestion.

My parents had to move around the country with the family to meet needs relating to the job.

As for the other alternative suggestions, they too are things that people do. Back in the 80s people lived in half built half unfurnished houses. Things like carpets would be done while living there. Rooms would be ready as needed. My friends Dad built their family kitchen while they were living in the house.

Our generation just needs a bit of perspective imo.

BarryD2

One More Toy wrote: »

Our deposit wouldnt be a problem on such a flat (at least 10%) but when it comes to salary rules of 3.5 times salary (combined gross near €75,000) we are screwed

The 3.5 times salary rule is there both to protect you from yourself and the taxpayer generally from having to pick up the tab (again) of people who over reach.

The old adage about possession being 9/10ths of the law etc still applies and unfortunately some people like you are screwed whilst others who got in and built up debt are seemingly protected to the hilt almost.

If you can manage living away from Dublin, then costs are more manageable. However other disadvantages apply.

Cyrus

ligerdub wrote: »

Looking at some comments here I'm really wondering how we've accepted such misery as part of what we expect our lives to be.

The OP is a great example of what the average is. These are a couple looking to setup some sort of family life and are very much living on what the average income is for a 2 person household.

So far we've had plenty of comments like: "there are plenty of places to buy within your budget" or "you can buy here and do it up", I'm sorry does money just grow on trees? "You're just going to have to compromise, either buy a shoebox totally unsuitable to family life or live about 50 miles away, what's the problem?" This sort of blunt attitude where we are supposed to think this isn't a suitable complaint is not suitable to a decent society. It's basically saying, well I'm alright so I don't care about you. The fact is that these conditions are not acceptable for people trying to get on with their lives, and is a one-way street to a nation of miserable people, spending all their time coming and going to work or literally being unable to have another child because they simply can't afford it, and I'm not talking 5 or 6 kids I'm talking 2, maybe 3.

This is a couple too, what could an applicant do if they were a single person? The OP has never stated that he/she wanted to buy a luxurious megahome for themselves, more so that they thought they could expect to be able to afford somewhere where they could setup a home suitable to starting a reasonably sized family and live reasonably close to the city and/or places of employment opportunities. I mean correct me if I'm wrong for assuming this wish to be you know.......pretty normal.

Maybe if we spent more time in stopping pretending that this situation is ok and the OP has no real complaint we would all be a bit better off, and it would force the guys supposedly running this country to treat it with a bit more importance.

How many capital cities in europe do you think buying a family home on twice the industrial wage is achievable in ?

i doubt very many. Unfortunately the combined salary of the OP and his/her partner will mean they have to compromise on size or location, i dont think thats unreasonable.

myshirt

Cyrus wrote: »

How many capital cities in europe do you think buying a family home on twice the industrial wage is achievable in ?

i doubt very many. Unfortunately the combined salary of the OP and his/her partner will mean they have to compromise on size or location, i dont think thats unreasonable.

The poster does have a legitimate point though. The answer however is not one that Irish people like, and that is property taxes. LPT to go up, CGT exemption on your PPR to be removed, and CAT relief to go. We need transactions in the market and to ensure housing policy drives housing resource to where it is best used.

It's baby boomers that are mostly the issue. They are locking out competent people that a good market would drive close to the jobs, and they are replacing them with their children, who may or may not be the best use of that housing.

Bananaleaf

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Emigrate.

I'm shocked that this reply got so many likes.

It's remarkable how one can work hard, pay their way etc yet the 'most obvious' solution to their predicament is, essentially, get out of the country.

If we keep sending all our tax payers abroad, life is going to get a lot more uncomfortable for some 'customers' :rolleyes:

LirW

ligerdub wrote: »

So far we've had plenty of comments like: "there are plenty of places to buy within your budget" or "you can buy here and do it up", I'm sorry does money just grow on trees? "You're just going to have to compromise, either buy a shoebox totally unsuitable to family life or live about 50 miles away, what's the problem?" This sort of blunt attitude where we are supposed to think this isn't a suitable complaint is not suitable to a decent society. It's basically saying, well I'm alright so I don't care about you. The fact is that these conditions are not acceptable for people trying to get on with their lives, and is a one-way street to a nation of miserable people, spending all their time coming and going to work or literally being unable to have another child because they simply can't afford it, and I'm not talking 5 or 6 kids I'm talking 2, maybe 3.

I'm pretty much on board with that.
We had to move out, couldn't afford the city or close to it, himself does a long commute because we depend on his salary.
No jobs anywhere around in his field, beside from hospitality and trades there aren't many jobs in general.
There are plenty of people like us who can't afford the city, nobody would rent to us because kids and they all get pushed further out.
So your wallet pretty much dictates where you live and I appreciate that it does in general but I don't think it's a solution to push the low income crowd or families out of urban areas because, well, tough luck.

The OP has a good point, while they have a decent enough budget for what they want, the situation and questions are similar for lots of couples or families that could "only" borrow the guts of 200 grand or even less. While this is a sh1tload of money it doesn't qualify you to live anywhere close to your work (and I'm sorry but if you have a family there's next to nothing in this bracket where you wanna live with a family long term in Dublin). Pair that with exquisite Irish transport and you have a perfect recipe for a happy society.

Get rich or die tryin' I guess.

Cyrus

myshirt wrote: »

The poster does have a legitimate point though. The answer however is not one that Irish people like, and that is property taxes. LPT to go up, CGT exemption on your PPR to be removed, and CAT relief to go. We need transactions in the market and to ensure housing policy drives housing resource to where it is best used.

It's baby boomers that are mostly the issue. They are locking out competent people that a good market would drive close to the jobs, and they are replacing them with their children, who may or may not be the best use of that housing.

i disagree, everyone wants a semi d in a nice part of dublin, thats not achievable for everyone, further taxing people who have already paid a fortune in tax is not the answer either.

nor is a relaxing of the lending rules.

TheAnalyst_

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I'm shocked that this reply got so many likes.

It's remarkable how one can work hard, pay their way etc yet the 'most obvious' solution to their predicament is, essentially, get out of the country.

If we keep sending all our tax payers abroad, life is going to get a lot more uncomfortable for some 'customers' :rolleyes:

Pragmatism. You can spend your whole life ranting on boards about how can we change the system. You can vote, campaign and slave away all you like. Nothing will change.

You need to put yourself in control,

I left a few years ago had zero savings. 9 months later I have a mortgage of 380k at 1.8% and in a much better place for my family. **** Dublin and Ireland tbh. Life is so much better when you don't have to cover the freeloaders and defaulters which are saints in Ireland.

mloc123

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Anybody have experience with this buying on their own, what kind of salary would you need to have for an exemption? I suppose it depends on industry and increases, for example I'm a software engineer.

I work with somebody, not a developer but works in "tech". He was approved recently as a single applicant by BOI, they would not give him a LTI exception. I don't know if he tried any other banks. He is on a base of ~60k.

Bananaleaf

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Pragmatism. You can spend your whole life ranting on boards about how can we change the system. You can vote, campaign and slave away all you like. Nothing will change.

You need to put yourself in control,

I left a few years ago had zero savings. 9 months later I have a mortgage of 380k at 1.8% and in a much better place for my family. **** Dublin and Ireland tbh. Life is so much better when you don't have to cover the freeloaders and defaulters which are saints in Ireland.

Well, first of all, well done to you on your success. That is great that you got up and did that for you and your family and I admire that.

I also strongly agree with your last sentence.

However, what might be pragmatism to you can be torture or sometimes impossible for others. Personally, I had the option to go abroad and earn loads or stay here and play the waiting game, saving every penny I had and hoping I'd get enough together before I was priced out of the market. I chose the latter but went for a modest house outside of Dublin. It took a long time to get there and absolutely I could have something far better if I went abroad - I only have to look at my own sister to figure that out - but I just really didn't want to go. Not that I couldn't. I didn't want to.

Some would even argue that the decision to move out of your own native country, away from your family is just as passive a response to the issue as staying at home is. Unless you had always the intention of leaving, of course.

If the OP either wanted to or could move abroad, I doubt they would have started this thread. I went back and read over the opening post - they didn't sound like they were ranting to me.

TheAnalyst_

Spending half your life in a car heading to and from a **** commuter town. Good luck. Not for me.

Eric Cartman

ligerdub wrote: »

Looking at some comments here I'm really wondering how we've accepted such misery as part of what we expect our lives to be.

The OP is a great example of what the average is. These are a couple looking to setup some sort of family life and are very much living on what the average income is for a 2 person household.

So far we've had plenty of comments like: "there are plenty of places to buy within your budget" or "you can buy here and do it up", I'm sorry does money just grow on trees? "You're just going to have to compromise, either buy a shoebox totally unsuitable to family life or live about 50 miles away, what's the problem?" This sort of blunt attitude where we are supposed to think this isn't a suitable complaint is not suitable to a decent society. It's basically saying, well I'm alright so I don't care about you. The fact is that these conditions are not acceptable for people trying to get on with their lives, and is a one-way street to a nation of miserable people, spending all their time coming and going to work or literally being unable to have another child because they simply can't afford it, and I'm not talking 5 or 6 kids I'm talking 2, maybe 3.

This is a couple too, what could an applicant do if they were a single person? The OP has never stated that he/she wanted to buy a luxurious megahome for themselves, more so that they thought they could expect to be able to afford somewhere where they could setup a home suitable to starting a reasonably sized family and live reasonably close to the city and/or places of employment opportunities. I mean correct me if I'm wrong for assuming this wish to be you know.......pretty normal.

Maybe if we spent more time in stopping pretending that this situation is ok and the OP has no real complaint we would all be a bit better off, and it would force the guys supposedly running this country to treat it with a bit more importance.

They're a couple on a very average salary competing to live in the most valuable patches of land in the entire country. Its like asking to live in central London, downtown LA, Manhattan, Berlin etc... the other users are suggesting that an average couple do the average thing and live 15-20km away from oconnell st. hardly a tough ask.

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Spending half your life in a car heading to and from a **** commuter town. Good luck. Not for me.

Its not half your life, an hour commute to work is actually below normal for most countries. In the US a 2-2.5 hour commute is considered very normal. its an Irish attitude that spending any longer than 30 minutes getting to work is the end of the world and will cause divorce/ family ruin.

Arthur Daley

ligerdub wrote: »

Maybe if we spent more time in stopping pretending that this situation is ok and the OP has no real complaint we would all be a bit better off, and it would force the guys supposedly running this country to treat it with a bit more importance.

To avoid disappointment I think it is best to not look upon 'the government' as your friend or partner in this. The fact is that 'the government' had a stated aim of high house prices. The EU/IMF troika sought high house prices to ensure that their true clients the sovereign bond holders and bank bond holders got paid off.

The biggest beneficiary from a house sale and high rents is the government. After all they have an effective 50% shareholding in rental incomes above a certain low level. They make a fortune on each new build/development through levies, vat and other taxes.

The system works exactly as planned.Fine Fail is salavating at the profits to be made in the years ahead. Just as Fianna Gael did in 2007.

ligerdub

Arthur Daley wrote: »

To avoid disappointment I think it is best to not look upon 'the government' as your friend or partner in this. The fact is that 'the government' had a stated aim of high house prices. The EU/IMF troika sought high house prices to ensure that their true clients the sovereign bond holders and bank bond holders got paid off.

The biggest beneficiary from a house sale and high rents is the government. After all they have an effective 50% shareholding in rental incomes above a certain low level. They make a fortune on each new build/development through levies, vat and other taxes.

The system works exactly as planned.Fine Fail is salavating at the profits to be made in the years ahead. Just as Fianna Gael did in 2007.

I agree, but to be fair I never said they were.

super_furry

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Emigrate.

To where? You go to the capital city of any other European country and you're going to be in the same boat.

Bob_Marley

You might have more luck getting a mortgage in your own names rather than using Jesus's name.

Anyways, the powers that be are dead against ordinary people being able to own their own homes in the future anymore, as it makes people much harder to control and manipulate.

ligerdub

Eric Cartman wrote: »

They're a couple on a very average salary competing to live in the most valuable patches of land in the entire country. Its like asking to live in central London, downtown LA, Manhattan, Berlin etc... the other users are suggesting that an average couple do the average thing and live 15-20km away from oconnell st. hardly a tough ask.



Its not half your life, an hour commute to work is actually below normal for most countries. In the US a 2-2.5 hour commute is considered very normal. its an Irish attitude that spending any longer than 30 minutes getting to work is the end of the world and will cause divorce/ family ruin.

I hear ya, but I never said this was unique to Ireland. The situation for people in pretty much every location is becoming more and more stark. As money has become less valuable then the value of assets like property has become much more valuable.

I think we can raise the bar a bit in terms of what's a reasonable time to be spending in your day to day commute. If you're spending 4 to 5 hours of your day (20 hours a week?! - add that time up over the course of 1 year, 10 year, 30 years!) going to and from work then I suggest those people have NO lives. That sounds entirely depressing and futile. Bear in mind that it's not like that's the only thing they are doing that day, they also have the 8-10 hours of work to do too. Prisoners have better lives than that!

I think of people like in the attached story. This is sort of thing you're talking about when you have a commute of an hour or more. Bear in mind you're talking under normal conditions, and when you consider how gridlocked our roads become under even the slightest inconvenience then it becomes an even bigger daily headache.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/i-can-have-breakfast-with-the-kids-and-im-in-work-in-20-minutes-meet-the-decommuters-36734635.html

It might not sound like a lot, but having at least a half hour to an hour to relax at home and interact with your family every day can make a big difference versus next to no time except for the weekend.

I just don't buy into this theory that we should be happy/content to view long working hours, huge mortgages and rents relative to take home pay, and spending huge amounts of time commuting as being just par for the course.