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Advice on notice period

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  • 26-03-2018 8:35am
    #1
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi folks,

    a friend was given notice December 2nd to be out this week. He has been a tenant in the property for 11yrs...8 under the current owner. (He came with the house sale basically).

    The letter was very basic; just the date, no signature, no indication as to the plan (he wants to sell up) and from what I understand, not allowing tenant his due period of notice (8mths I think?).

    As it stands, the owner just has the one tenant now as the other 2 flew the nest once they heard he was selling up so he's having to foot the monthly mortgage now with just one renter's income.

    So, in terms of the tenant, any advice in terms of what he should do?


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    #2
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    He could appeal to see if the notice is invalid but assuming he is a tenant and is liable for the full rent, can he afford that while his appeal is pending?

    That would probably be more expensive than just moving out and finding somewhere else (assuming of course that he can find somewhere).


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    #3
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    amcalester wrote: »
    He could appeal to see if the notice is invalid but assuming he is a tenant and is liable for the full rent, can he afford that while his appeal is pending?

    That would probably be more expensive than just moving out and finding somewhere else (assuming of course that he can find somewhere).

    No, he (the sole remaining tenant is paying up 480€ p/mth so the owner is having to foot the balance (€1100 p/mth is the mortgage repayment).

    8mths would be the minimum for a tenant in excess of 8yrs, yes ?


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    #4
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Tenants are usually jointly and severally liable for the full rent, so unless your friends lease states that this is not the case then the landlord could lodge a counter claim for the "missing rent".

    I think 32 weeks is correct for a tenant.

    What was the arrangement between your friend and the landlord? Was it room by room or did the 3 rent the place together as one group?


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    #5
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    amcalester wrote: »
    Tenants are usually jointly and severally liable for the full rent, so unless your friends lease states that this is not the case then the landlord could lodge a counter claim for the "missing rent".

    I think 32 weeks is correct for a tenant.

    What was the arrangement between your friend and the landlord? Was it room by room or did the 3 rent the place together as one group?

    Room by room. He has one. The other 2 were let by the LL. I'm seeing mixed info online in terms of the notice period.

    From Citizens Information.....

    effect from 4 December 2015.

    Length of tenancy Notice that the landlord must give
    Less than 6 months 4 weeks (28 days)
    6 months or longer but less than 1 year 5 weeks (35 days)
    1 year or longer but less than 2 years 6 weeks (42 days)
    2 years or longer but less than 3 years 8 weeks (56 days)
    3 years or longer but less than 4 years 12 weeks (84 days)
    4 years or longer but less than 5 years 16 weeks (112 days)
    5 years or longer but less than 6 years 20 weeks (140 days)
    6 years or longer but less than 7 years 24 weeks (168 days)
    7 years or longer but less than 8 years 28 weeks (196 days)
    8 years or longer 32 weeks (224 days)


    And from Threshold:

    The normal notice periods that are applicable from 4th December 2015 are:


    Duration of Tenancy

    Notice Period


    Under 6 months 28 days
    Over 6 months but under 1 year 35 days
    Over 1 year but under 2 years 42 days
    Over 2 years but under 3 years 56 days
    Over 3 years but under 4 years 56 days
    Over 4 years but under 5 years 84 days
    Over 5 years but under 6 years 84 days
    Over 6 years but under 7 years 84 days
    Over 7 years but under 8 years 84 days
    8 or more years 112 days


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    #6
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    RTB site states 224 days.

    Note: that this applies only to tenants and it's possible that your friend is only a licensee and as such is not covered by these notice periods.

    I'm not siding with the landlord here, just making sure your friend is aware of all the issues. It's a shame the other 2 bailed, they would have had a much stronger case had they all appealed together.


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    #7
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    amcalester wrote: »
    RTB site states 224 days.

    Note: that this applies only to tenants and it's possible that your friend is only a licensee and as such is not covered by these notice periods.

    I'm not siding with the landlord here, just making sure your friend is aware of all the issues. It's a shame the other 2 bailed, they would have had a much stronger case had they all appealed together.

    It's tricky as the LL is a friend too but on further investigation, it would appear that regular notice period goes out the window once rent arrears come into play. Basically, in this situation, the LL is only getting €480 and he has to cover the balance of the €1100 himself so that changes everything.


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    #8
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    It's a messy situation all right.

    Rent arrears would only apply here if your friend was liable for the full rent. If he's not then no arrears exist.

    The landlord can't leave those rooms empty and then serve a notice to quit due to arrears.

    If there's no rent due, because the rooms are empty, then there can be no arrears.


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    #9
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    I don't want to be alarmist, but my advice to your friend is he needs to start getting this sorted today.

    The notice you've described isn't a valid notice (there's more information on invalid notices here), but I'm not sure what your friend can do, as the Act only allows 28 days to refer disputes about invalid notices to the RTB. And if he got it in December, that 28 day timeframe has long passed. That doesn't mean the notice is valid, but it might mean there's nothing the RTB can do about it.

    I'd suggest your friend contacts the RTB today to see if they can give any guidance or information, assuming he hasn't already done this. If they can still accept a referral on the issue, he needs to make that referral ASAP because, as far as I can tell, a termination of tenancy under dispute can't take effect until the dispute process is finished.

    I'm not sure what his options are if the RTB won't take the referral, but it's better he finds that out sooner rather than later.


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    #10
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    amcalester wrote: »
    It's a messy situation all right.

    Rent arrears would only apply here if your friend was liable for the full rent. If he's not then no arrears exist.

    The landlord can't leave those rooms empty and then serve a notice to quit due to arrears.

    If there's no rent due, because the rooms are empty, then there can be no arrears.

    And even if it was a case of rent arrears, the landlord still has a legal process to follow before terminating the tenancy:
    If a landlord wants to end a tenancy because of rent arrears and the tenant has been renting the property for more than 6 months then a two step procedure must be followed:

    1.Serve a 14 Day Warning Notice for failure to pay rent: Where a tenant falls into rent arrears the landlord must write to the tenant serving a minimum of 14 days Warning Notice for failure to pay rent. This notice must state how much rent is due, give the tenant reasonable time to pay it, and outline what will happen if they don’t pay. Please note the law requires that a tenant is given a reasonable time to remedy a breach. This can be different from case to case, but should be at least of a minimum 14 days.

    2.Serve a 28-day Notice of Termination of the tenancy. If the tenant fails to pay the rent due in the time period given in the warning notice, the landlord can end the tenancy by serving a 28 day a notice of termination.


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    #11
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    dodzy wrote: »
    Basically, in this situation, the LL is only getting €480 and he has to cover the balance of the €1100 himself so that changes everything.

    What the landlord has to pay in monthly mortgage payments has nothing at all to do with the €480 per month your friend pays to live in the house.


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    #12
    spaceHopper
    Registered Users Posts: 3,991 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Why hasn't your friend found somewhere else to live. The tenant should call the RTB for advice. Get his facts straight before talking to the LL. Sounds like the LL messed up the notice and the RTB will make him start again, the notice wasn't formatted correctly it didn't state the he had 28 days to open a case with the RTB. If the LL is genuinely selling up the best thing to do is to move on as soon a possible.


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    #13
    Caliden
    Registered Users Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    Why hasn't your friend found somewhere else to live. The tenant should call the RTB for advice. Get his facts straight before talking to the LL. Sounds like the LL messed up the notice and the RTB will make him start again, the notice wasn't formatted correctly it didn't state the he had 28 days to open a case with the RTB. If the LL is genuinely selling up the best thing to do is to move on as soon a possible.

    The notice doesn't require this: 'it didn't state the he had 28 days to open a case with the RTB'


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    #14
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    Why hasn't your friend found somewhere else to live. The tenant should call the RTB for advice. Get his facts straight before talking to the LL. Sounds like the LL messed up the notice and the RTB will make him start again, the notice wasn't formatted correctly it didn't state the he had 28 days to open a case with the RTB. If the LL is genuinely selling up the best thing to do is to move on as soon a possible.
    Agree, which is what he will do but he's undergoing a major op in the coming days followed by radiotherapy and he will obviously need to recuperate so was hoping to push it down the road till July. Will get onto the RTB for advice. Just to be clear, there was no rent arrears. The situation now is purely down to the LL expressing his wish to sell and the 2 other tenants pegged it as soon as they heard, leaving 2 rooms vacant.


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    #15
    RunRoryRun
    Registered Users Posts: 476 ✭✭RunRoryRun


    It seems like he's narrowed his options considerably by not taking action when notice was given. Not sure on the legalities, but why wasn't he already looking if he knew this was on the cards?


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    #16
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    RunRoryRun wrote: »
    It seems like he's narrowed his options considerably by not taking action when notice was given. Not sure on the legalities, but why wasn't he already looking if he knew this was on the cards?
    Cancer diagnosis scuppered things.


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    #17
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    dodzy wrote: »
    Cancer diagnosis scuppered things.

    OK, hope he gets better, I just deleted quite a rant there :o

    What it boils down to, think of the LL as well. He has to pay off quite a mortgage and is stuck with the expense or he might even build up arrears as well as having estate agent and legal expenses to do with the sale of the house all eating into any potential profit.
    Hope he gets sortet.


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    #18
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    OK, hope he gets better, I just deleted quite a rant there :o

    What it boils down to, think of the LL as well. He has to pay off quite a mortgage and is stuck with the expense or he might even build up arrears as well as having estate agent and legal expenses to do with the sale of the house all eating into any potential profit.
    Hope he gets sortet.

    I can sympathise with the landlord's situation, but at the end of the day, he's still required to abide by the law, and he clearly hasn't based on the information here.

    Besides, he's not without options. He could get tenants on in a short-term lease with little effort in this market. Even if it that didn't fully cover his costs, it would still be far better than the present situation.


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    #19
    TheIronyMaiden
    Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭TheIronyMaiden


    amcalester wrote: »
    Note: that this applies only to tenants and it's possible that your friend is only a licensee and as such is not covered by these notice periods.

    I think this is important to find out for your friend - if he is a licensee rather than a tenant (as can sometimes be the case when renting out rooms) there is no notice period at all required by the landlord.
    Sounds like a tough situation for your friend all round, hopefully he gets something sorted one way or the other.


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    #20
    dodzy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,003 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    Thanks folks, yeah, it's not a nice situation for anyone concerned, both the tenant and LL are really sound people but the LL is obviously taking a hit at the moment. He could fill the 2 vacant rooms very quickly around here without question and get more than he needs to cover the mortgage but he seems keen to sell up ASAP. I'm gonna have a chat with him (the LL) later to see if we can come up with a short term solution that might work - ultimately though, he should have done his homework in terms of the notification period and letter of notice.
    TheIronyMaiden wrote: »
    I think this is important to find out for your friend - if he is a licensee rather than a tenant (as can sometimes be the case when renting out rooms) there is no notice period at all required by the landlord.
    Sounds like a tough situation for your friend all round, hopefully he gets something sorted one way or the other.
    Nope, he's definitely a tenant.


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