Match Play Horror Stories

keane2097

kiers47 wrote: »

It actually is an option you have to replay any shot you want under penalty of 1 stroke under the the unplayable lie rule. I really don't see why you have such a problem with the rule.

Because of the name of the rule.

If the person declaring the ball unplayable knows the ball is playable they are being dishonest to gain an advantage.

Making declarations that you know are false is inherently dishonest whether anyone can call you up on it or not.

blue note

kiers47 wrote: »

It actually is an option you have to replay any shot you want under penalty of 1 stroke under the the unplayable lie rule. I really don't see why you have such a problem with the rule.

The rule says the player is the sole judge as to whether or not his ball is unplayable. I read that as the player is responsible for judging whether or not the ball is unplayable. If not why would they mention unplayable at all, why wouldn't they just say a player may choose, at a penalty of 1 stroke to replay his last shot / drop ...... instead of playing his ball?

And if the player ends up the judge of where a ball last crossed the hazard, what do you think? Does he have to be honest about it or would he be foolish to do so?

elbagarihno

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

They should just make it a rule to hole out in Matchplay. Saves all this nonsense of people getting upset about it. Creates an atmosphere then. Should be competing AND enjoying a round of golf with a guy.

This is one of the best things about Match play golf, giving a guy putts from 4ft all day, until he hits his chip to 4ft on 16 and has to hole it to stay in the match

kiers47

keane2097 wrote: »

Because of the name of the rule.

If the person declaring the ball unplayable knows the ball is playable they are being dishonest to gain an advantage.

Making declarations that you know are false is inherently dishonest whether anyone can call you up on it or not.

The rule literally says that you can declare a ball unplayable anywhere on the course.
The amount of times where you might gain some sort of advantage from this is probably 1 in 10000 shots.

The reason that the player is the sole judge is that 2 peoples view of playable/unplayable might be 2 completely different views. This is why the responsibility rests solely on 1 person (the player).

Im not going to have anything else to say on the matter.
We will have to agree to disagree on it. Ill follow the rules if that makes me dishonest then i am fine with that.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

It's not an option to replay any shots you want, it's a responsibility to judge whether or not you have an unplayable lie. I don't see how you can not view someone declaring a playable ball unplayable as anything other than dishonest and that honesty is core to people being able to referee themselves.

Take for example a ball that enters a hazard that your playing partner didn't see. He says he will have to trust you as to where it crossed. To me that means that you should take the point of entry as where you believe it crossed hazard. However, if it's up to you to decide maybe you should take a more advantageous spot? Your playing partner didn't see it, so it's entirely up to you. I don't see this as too different to declaring a lie unplayable when it clearly is.

It's not an unplayable lie, its unplayable.

Its a matter of fact regarding where a ball crossed a hazard, if you drop somewhere else you are cheating.

Deciding that a ball is unplayable "for you" is purely subjective and nothing to do with anyone else. I might be able to play a shot left handed and choose to play it, you might not have that shot, does that mean the ball is not unplayable for you?

Extend that to I can play a flop shot over a bunker but you cant hence you decide its unplayable.

kiers47

blue note wrote: »

The rule says the player is the sole judge as to whether or not his ball is unplayable. I read that as the player is responsible for judging whether or not the ball is unplayable. If not why would they mention unplayable at all, why wouldn't they just say a player may choose, at a penalty of 1 stroke to replay his last shot / drop ...... instead of playing his ball?

And if the player ends up the judge of where a ball last crossed the hazard, what do you think? Does he have to be honest about it or would he be foolish to do so?

What you think is unplayable and what i think is unplayable may be completely different. What if in said example mentioned previously the person had the chipping yips. He might think that ball is unplayable where it was, due to his limitations. Am i or anyone else to say any different.

The second thing you mention has nothing to do with what we are discussing. There are also rules clearly outlined in the rule book for hazards. If you are unsure i would suggest having a read of them also.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I have nothing more to add.

Miley Byrne

elbagarihno wrote: »

This is one of the best things about Match play golf, giving a guy putts from 4ft all day, until he hits his chip to 4ft on 16 and has to hole it to stay in the match

At mid amateur level, I can guarantee you would lose more matches than you would win if you gave every four footer for the first 15 holes of your matches

keane2097

GreeBo wrote: »

It's not an unplayable lie, its unplayable.

Its a matter of fact regarding where a ball crossed a hazard, if you drop somewhere else you are cheating.

Deciding that a ball is unplayable "for you" is purely subjective and nothing to do with anyone else. I might be able to play a shot left handed and choose to play it, you might not have that shot, does that mean the ball is not unplayable for you?

The difference being you actually really believe the ball to be unplayable.

If you actually really know the ball is playable, but you declare it unplayable, you are making a false declaration. We can surely agree that that is dishonest at least?

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

It's not an unplayable lie, its unplayable.

Its a matter of fact regarding where a ball crossed a hazard, if you drop somewhere else you are cheating.

Deciding that a ball is unplayable "for you" is purely subjective and nothing to do with anyone else. I might be able to play a shot left handed and choose to play it, you might not have that shot, does that mean the ball is not unplayable for you?

But we're not talking about the ones that are subjective. We're talking about the ones where no reasonable person could call a ball unplayable, but someone chooses to do so because it's more advantageous than paying the ball from where it lies.

Take for example someone with a lightening downhill putt close to the hole. They miss it and the ball catches a hill and roles off the green leaving them with a difficult up and down / two putt. What I'm reading here is that it's acceptable to take a one shot penalty and have another go at the original putt. I wouldn't think much of someone who did that. At best I'd consider it someone abusing a rule in a dishonest manner.

GreeBo

keane2097 wrote: »

The difference being you actually really believe the ball to be unplayable.

If you actually really know the ball is playable, but you declare it unplayable, you are making a false declaration. We can surely agree that that is dishonest at least?

I disagree. You could just as easily take a left handed swing at the ball as I could, it probably wont work out as well as my attempt would since I practice the shot, but its still something that you *could* do.

In that case every shot is playable, you *could* climb into the bushes and make an attempt at hitting the ball out & maybe 1 in 1000 you would get it out successfully, but you believe you will be better off taking a penalty and declaring it unplayable.

Its the exact same scenario literally *anywhere* on the course (other than in water hazard)

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

But we're not talking about the ones that are subjective. We're talking about the ones where no reasonable person could call a ball unplayable, but someone chooses to do so because it's more advantageous than paying the ball from where it lies.

Take for example someone with a lightening downhill putt close to the hole. They miss it and the ball catches a hill and roles off the green leaving them with a difficult up and down / two putt. What I'm reading here is that it's acceptable to take a one shot penalty and have another go at the original putt. I wouldn't think much of someone who did that. At best I'd consider it someone abusing a rule in a dishonest manner.

They are all subjective!

The whole purpose of taking an unplayable is that its more advantageous than playing the ball from where it lies! Irrespective of the ball being in a bush or behind a tree buried in a pot bunker.

Your scenario is perfectly correct, I've done it when a partner bladed a chip from the front of a severe back to front sloping green over the back of the green. It was a more playable shot for me to retake the chip rather than play from behind the green.

Seve OB

http://www.golfmagic.com/forum/golf-rules-handicapping/replaying-shot/16549

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/35587-can-you-replay-a-shot-anytime-you-choose/

http://www.ghin.com/eclubhouse/uploadedimages/News/1442_7398_Unplayable%20Lie%20Rule.pdf

https://www.thoughtco.com/standards-for-declaring-a-ball-unplayable-1561301

stockdam

The "unplayable lie" is one of the daftest rules. Yes it does come down to subjectivity and that's what is protecting the rule from being changed.

If somebody chips (or putts) the ball into a deep greenside bunker then they can declare the ball unplayable even if it's in the centre of the bunker. A reasonable approach would be to only declare a ball unplayable if it's going to be difficult to get the club onto the ball (under the lip of a bunker or completely buried).

A player who cannot play bunker shots and who takes on average 3 shots to get out shouldn't be allowed to declare the ball unplayable just because they cannot play the shot correctly. That could result in them saving several shots per round.

The intention of the rule is for instances where your ball is stuck under a rock etc and there's no way to get the clubface to the ball. It shouldn't apply to cases where somebody gains an advantage by calling a ball unplayable from a lie that clearly is playable.

So the rule is daft but the problem then is if it is changed then there will be grey areas. Allowing the player to declare an unplayable lie is "fair" as anyone can declare the ball unplayable. Otherwise you would have one rule for a scratch player and one for a duffer......what is unplayable for a duffer may be a reasonably easy shot for a skilled golfer.

blue note

Yep. And if you needed agreement from your playing partner you could easily have serious disagreements about what's unplayable. One person might think something is playable, Evan though you risk damaging your club / wrist in doing so.

I just feel people need to be decent about it and call them honestly.

Edit: that's what I would do and I consider myself a superior human being for it.

prawnsambo

stockdam wrote: »

The "unplayable lie" is one of the daftest rules. Yes it does come down to subjectivity and that's what is protecting the rule from being changed.

If somebody chips (or putts) the ball into a deep greenside bunker then they can declare the ball unplayable even if it's in the centre of the bunker. A reasonable approach would be to only declare a ball unplayable if it's going to be difficult to get the club onto the ball (under the lip of a bunker or completely buried).

A player who cannot play bunker shots and who takes on average 3 shots to get out shouldn't be allowed to declare the ball unplayable just because they cannot play the shot correctly. That could result in them saving several shots per round.

The intention of the rule is for instances where your ball is stuck under a rock etc and there's no way to get the clubface to the ball. It shouldn't apply to cases where somebody gains an advantage by calling a ball unplayable from a lie that clearly is playable.

So the rule is daft but the problem then is if it is changed then there will be grey areas. Allowing the player to declare an unplayable lie is "fair" as anyone can declare the ball unplayable. Otherwise you would have one rule for a scratch player and one for a duffer......what is unplayable for a duffer may be a reasonably easy shot for a skilled golfer.

They're taking a penalty and they also may be taking the same shot again if they go for the 'shot and distance' option. So there's no guarantee that they'll get what they're looking for. It's a bogey at best on a par 4 for the player calling the unplayable. Unless they're really lucky and chip in from their drop.

If somebody did it on me, I'd raise an eyebrow alright, but I wouldn't be upset about it. That option is open to me too.

kiers47

blue note wrote: »

Yep. And if you needed agreement from your playing partner you could easily have serious disagreements about what's unplayable. One person might think something is playable, Evan though you risk damaging your club / wrist in doing so.

I just feel people need to be decent about it and call them honestly.

Edit: that's what I would do and I consider myself a superior human being for it.

Ahahahaha.:pac::pac: A superior human. How f*cking old are you?
Whatever gives you them little kicks in life.

elbagarihno

Miley Byrne wrote: »

At mid amateur level, I can guarantee you would lose more matches than you would win if you gave every four footer for the first 15 holes of your matches

Maybe at mid amateur level you are right, I wouldn't know.

blue note

kiers47 wrote: »

Ahahahaha.:pac::pac: A superior human. How f*cking old are you?
Whatever gives you them little kicks in life.

When I get to the pearly gates and Peter asks me if I ever called a ball unplayable even though I could have played it quite easily I'll be the one laughing.

elbagarihno

blue note wrote: »

When I get to the pearly gates and Peter asks me if I ever called a ball unplayable even though I could have played it quite easily I'll be the one laughing.

He'll be laughing at you, saying the rules are the rules, use them to your advantage when you can, so many of them punish you you're due a little balance in return.

kiers47

blue note wrote: »

When I get to the pearly gates and Peter asks me if I ever called a ball unplayable even though I could have played it quite easily I'll be the one laughing.

That confirms it then.
Have a good day!

stockdam

prawnsambo wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

The "unplayable lie" is one of the daftest rules. Yes it does come down to subjectivity and that's what is protecting the rule from being changed.

If somebody chips (or putts) the ball into a deep greenside bunker then they can declare the ball unplayable even if it's in the centre of the bunker. A reasonable approach would be to only declare a ball unplayable if it's going to be difficult to get the club onto the ball (under the lip of a bunker or completely buried).

A player who cannot play bunker shots and who takes on average 3 shots to get out shouldn't be allowed to declare the ball unplayable just because they cannot play the shot correctly. That could result in them saving several shots per round.

The intention of the rule is for instances where your ball is stuck under a rock etc and there's no way to get the clubface to the ball. It shouldn't apply to cases where somebody gains an advantage by calling a ball unplayable from a lie that clearly is playable.

So the rule is daft but the problem then is if it is changed then there will be grey areas. Allowing the player to declare an unplayable lie is "fair" as anyone can declare the ball unplayable. Otherwise you would have one rule for a scratch player and one for a duffer......what is unplayable for a duffer may be a reasonably easy shot for a skilled golfer.

They're taking a penalty and they also may be taking the same shot again if they go for the 'shot and distance' option. So there's no guarantee that they'll get what they're looking for. It's a bogey at best on a par 4 for the player calling the unplayable. Unless they're really lucky and chip in from their drop.

If somebody did it on me, I'd raise an eyebrow alright, but I wouldn't be upset about it. That option is open to me too.

I know some players who would gladly take the shot again rather than play from a bunker. Some people need 3 shots to get out.

stockdam

stockdam wrote: »

The "unplayable lie" is one of the daftest rules. Yes it does come down to subjectivity and that's what is protecting the rule from being changed.

If somebody chips (or putts) the ball into a deep greenside bunker then they can declare the ball unplayable even if it's in the centre of the bunker. A reasonable approach would be to only declare a ball unplayable if it's going to be difficult to get the club onto the ball (under the lip of a bunker or completely buried).

A player who cannot play bunker shots and who takes on average 3 shots to get out shouldn't be allowed to declare the ball unplayable just because they cannot play the shot correctly. That could result in them saving several shots per round.

The intention of the rule is for instances where your ball is stuck under a rock etc and there's no way to get the clubface to the ball. It shouldn't apply to cases where somebody gains an advantage by calling a ball unplayable from a lie that clearly is playable.

So the rule is daft but the problem then is if it is changed then there will be grey areas. Allowing the player to declare an unplayable lie is "fair" as anyone can declare the ball unplayable. Otherwise you would have one rule for a scratch player and one for a duffer......what is unplayable for a duffer may be a reasonably easy shot for a skilled golfer.

in a bunker he cannot drop outside the bunker unless he goes back to where shot was originally played from so risks going in there again
https://www.randa.org/Rules-of-Golf/MainRules/28-Ball-Unplayable

blue note

elbagarihno wrote: »

He'll be laughing at you, saying the rules are the rules, use them to your advantage when you can, so many of them punish you you're due a little balance in return.

I'm pretty sure st Peter would give preference up those who not only played within the rules, but also within the spirit of the game.

elbagarihno

blue note wrote: »

I'm pretty sure st Peter would give preference up those who not only played within the rules, but also within the spirit of the game.

Me: "I am going to deem this ball 'unplayable'."

I can see it in the bush, we all can, it's 4 feet off the ground stuck in the bush. I can get my club to it, could I play it, yes. However, there is a good chance that I'll make a hash of it and leave it in the bush in a worse position.

Even in the situation above, according to your logic, I am not playing within the spirit of the game.

prawnsambo

stockdam wrote: »

I know some players who would gladly take the shot again rather than play from a bunker. Some people need 3 shots to get out.

To be fair, Irish weather can turn bunkers into wrist breakers.

I look at the pros playing out of nice fluffy sand and can only be envious.

billy3sheets

Seve OB wrote: »

Actually happened me recently. Hit a ball and was pretty sure it was in the water hazard just short of the green, as were my playing partners. When we got up to it, we had a look around short and long side and no ball to be found so it was assumed ball was in the drink so I dropped one and played out the hole and rescued a point.
As we walked off to the next tee, I spot the ball, it had travelled a bit further than any of us had thought and was nestling nicely, pin high off to the side of the green.

Could I have played the ball? I would think not, but one guy I was playing with told me to. I would have thought that if I was to, there would have been penalties involved. I just scratched the hole.

Why did you scratch Seve? Surely you had declared your ball lost by way of playing your second under penalty? Irrelevant that you had found your original ball - you could neither play it or be punished for the fact that you (and your partners) had judged it to be in the hazard?

GreeBo

stockdam wrote: »

The "unplayable lie" is one of the daftest rules. Yes it does come down to subjectivity and that's what is protecting the rule from being changed.

If somebody chips (or putts) the ball into a deep greenside bunker then they can declare the ball unplayable even if it's in the centre of the bunker. A reasonable approach would be to only declare a ball unplayable if it's going to be difficult to get the club onto the ball (under the lip of a bunker or completely buried).

A player who cannot play bunker shots and who takes on average 3 shots to get out shouldn't be allowed to declare the ball unplayable just because they cannot play the shot correctly. That could result in them saving several shots per round.

The intention of the rule is for instances where your ball is stuck under a rock etc and there's no way to get the clubface to the ball. It shouldn't apply to cases where somebody gains an advantage by calling a ball unplayable from a lie that clearly is playable.

So the rule is daft but the problem then is if it is changed then there will be grey areas. Allowing the player to declare an unplayable lie is "fair" as anyone can declare the ball unplayable. Otherwise you would have one rule for a scratch player and one for a duffer......what is unplayable for a duffer may be a reasonably easy shot for a skilled golfer.

What if they have a sore wrist and cant play bunker shots on that day?
What if they cant hit a high bunker shot to get over the lip? You want them to hold up the entire course while they keep whacking away it just to suit your judgement?

The intention of the rule is that you can't be forced into playing a shot that you dont want to. It has nothing to do with rocks or otherwise. Whats playable for me may not be playable for you, due to many factors.
Hence why its up to you and not me to decide when your ball is unplayable.

blue note

elbagarihno wrote: »

Me: "I am going to deem this ball 'unplayable'."

I can see it in the bush, we all can, it's 4 feet off the ground stuck in the bush. I can get my club to it, could I play it, yes. However, there is a good chance that I'll make a hash of it and leave it in the bush in a worse position.

Even in the situation above, according to your logic, I am not playing within the spirit of the game.

I haven't seen anyone suggest applying the rule like that. Certainly not me. I'm basically just saying don't take the p1ss with it. If you putt the ball into a bunker and you're a terrible bunker player (and think you won't end up as close to the hole hitting out of the bunker as you would if you took your drop) then I'm saying you're not playing within the spirit of the game by calling a ball unplayable.

If you can justify it fine. But if you can't offer any reasonable justification, then suck it up and play the thing.

prawnsambo

This thread is becoming a bit of a horror story all by itself.

I'm really, really sorry I asked that question.

elbagarihno

blue note wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone suggest applying the rule like that. Certainly not me. I'm basically just saying don't take the p1ss with it. If you putt the ball into a bunker and you're a terrible bunker player (and think you won't end up as close to the hole hitting out of the bunker as you would if you took your drop) then I'm saying you're not playing within the spirit of the game by calling a ball unplayable.

If you can justify it fine. But if you can't offer any reasonable justification, then suck it up and play the thing.

Somehow, you seem unable to see the point, no worries.