The Fall of the Simpsons

Go Harvey Go

loyatemu wrote: »

The Simpsons producers don't seem to care. and because the characters don't age and the voice actors probably see it as an easy gig none of them have wanted to stop.

Bill Oakley and Josh Weinstein ran season 8 (as well as 7), and they have repeatedly stated that they thought the show was coming to the end of its natural life by then - hence episodes like "The Principal and the Pauper" (held over until the start of season 9), "Homer's Enemy", "The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show" and "The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase", as well as episodes with extreme endings like "The Homer They Fall" and "Mountain of Madness".

Many of the writers from before season 5 - and indeed many of the writers recruited by David Mirkin during seasons 5 and 6 - had moved on by that stage too. And the television landscape in 1997 was considerably different to what it had been in 1989 - in particular, there were hardly any family sitcoms left, mainly due to The Simpsons itself.

But Fox ultimately decided that the show must go on while it remains profitable - and Mike Scully, and later Al Jean, seemed to agree. As, indeed, did Dan (who has since written a few episodes himself), Julie, Nancy, Yeardley, Hank and Harry.

This despite Futurama and Family Guy, long-time fans turning off in their droves, and everyone getting older (from what I hear, voicing Marge and her sisters is quite an effort for Julie these days). The Simpsons is about to overtake Gunsmoke as the longest-running scripted primetime TV show in American history in terms of episodes - but what does it have left to achieve after that?

briany

King of the Hill was excellent over its 13 season run. That's four seasons longer than where most people agree that the Simpsons went off the rails. In fact, I think the show got better as it went on because the characters got more fleshed out and developed more defined personalities, the clashes thereof making for interesting story lines.

And the show did this by remaining (relatively) realistic and on an even keel, and this is something that the Simpsons stopped doing by about season 5, really. And we all loved some of these episodes that had no basis whatsoever in reality or likelihood. When you talk about what killed the Simpsons, it's a seed that was planted in the middle of the show's glory years.

But I think the Simpsons writers knew this, too. I mean the whole Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show episode is a commentary on the difficulty of keeping the Simpsons fresh and impactful, as it had once been. I have often thought that the show could have been 'rebooted' to be a little more down to Earth. But then again, I always thought they should also get wackier, and have more robots and magic powers...

astrofool

briany wrote: »

King of the Hill was excellent over its 13 season run. That's four seasons longer than where most people agree that the Simpsons went off the rails. In fact, I think the show got better as it went on because the characters got more fleshed out and developed more defined personalities, the clashes thereof making for interesting story lines.

Mike Judge has an excellent (for TV, and not at Gilligan level) eye for detail, which allowed the essence of KotH to remain right to the end, and fittingly, and similar to the first, the last episode was about the father/son relationship, propane and meat.

Mutant z

Its well passed its sell buy date time to put it out of its misery now.

johnnyyesno

I agree that the rot set in around season 8. For me it was the Mary Poppins episode where I started getting the distinct feeling that it was jumping the shark, though I had missed big chunks of seasons 7 but that episode sticks in my head for the wrong reasons.

loyatemu

johnnyyesno wrote: »

I agree that the rot set in around season 6. For me it was the Mary Poppins episode where I started getting the distinct feeling that it was jumping the shark, though I had missed big chunks of seasons 5 but that episode sticks in my head for the wrong reasons.

that was season 8.

I think the first crack was "Who shot Mr Burns" - part 1 was the final episode of S6 and was pretty much the high point of the show's cultural impact. Part 2 which kicked off S7 just seemed a bit of a let down after all the hype and there were a few episode in that season that were notably below the incredible standard of the previous few years.

Duckworth_Luas

pickarooney wrote: »

The Armin Tamzarian story was good enough for Mad Men to rehash.

Never watched Mad Men so know nothing about their episode. However, the premise dates back to at least the Middle Ages and the true life case of French peasant Martin Guerre.

This story has been dramatised multiple times, including Gerard Depardieu in The Return of Martin Guerre and its Hollywood remake Somersby starring Richard Gere.

In this case the imposter arrived claiming to be the presumed dead husband of a widow.

The writer of the episode claims that the inspiration was not the above, but a more obscure claim from Victorian England, the Tichborne case.

Not as well known in popular culture, this involved an Australian butcher claiming to be the son of a baron who was lost at sea. While the mother believed him the courts did not and he ended up in prison.

The plot even came up in Dallas, where a guy turned up claiming to be the presumed dead father of JR.

briany

loyatemu wrote: »

that was season 8.

I think the first crack was "Who shot Mr Burns" - part 1 was the final episode of S6 and was pretty much the high point of the show's cultural impact. Part 2 which kicked off S7 just seemed a bit of a let down after all the hype and there were a few episode in that season that were notably below the incredible standard of the previous few years.

I would say the seed was planted a few years earlier. People always talk about 'Jerkass Homer' being symbolic of the show's decline, but his roots are set firmly within the golden years of the show.

Take Homer Goes to College as an example - Great episode, but if you look at it soberly, Homer acts like the biggest idiot imaginable throughout it. He's so focused on making his time at college just like the screwball comedies he's been watching in preparation for the coming semester that he completely loses touch with the reality of the situation - that he has the world's soundest dean, that his roommates are meek and bookish and want no part in his escapades, or that college actually requires a degree of hard work and study. That's not to mention giving abuse to a passing student for being a 'nerd', kidnapping an innocent animal, or showing little remorse for getting his roommates temporarily kicked out of the school. Oh, and that great one liner he lets off - "Hello, Dean? You're a stupid head!"

That's all a far cry from the Homer of even just three seasons prior, who was a work-a-day oaf. Dumb, but relate-able, and fairly grounded - sometimes struggling to pay bills, frustrated by his son's delinquency, intellectually inferior to his daughter, and trying to be a good husband to his wife. Common struggles, but through it all a heart of gold.

Homer's increasing zaniness was in many ways demanded by the audience due to the laughs it brought, but those laughs came at an ever increasing cost to the heart of the show.

Mr.Nice Guy

briany wrote: »

I would say the seed was planted a few years earlier. People always talk about 'Jerkass Homer' being symbolic of the show's decline, but his roots are set firmly within the golden years of the show.

Take Homer Goes to College as an example - Great episode, but if you look at it soberly, Homer acts like the biggest idiot imaginable throughout it. He's so focused on making his time at college just like the screwball comedies he's been watching in preparation for the coming semester that he completely loses touch with the reality of the situation - that he has the world's soundest dean, that his roommates are meek and bookish and want no part in his escapades, or that college actually requires a degree of hard work and study. That's not to mention giving abuse to a passing student for being a 'nerd', kidnapping an innocent animal, or showing little remorse for getting his roommates temporarily kicked out of the school. Oh, and that great one liner he lets off - "Hello, Dean? You're a stupid head!"

That's all a far cry from the Homer of even just three seasons prior, who was a work-a-day oaf. Dumb, but relate-able, and fairly grounded - sometimes struggling to pay bills, frustrated by his son's delinquency, intellectually inferior to his daughter, and trying to be a good husband to his wife. Common struggles, but through it all a heart of gold.

Homer's increasing zaniness was in many ways demanded by the audience due to the laughs it brought, but those laughs came at an ever increasing cost to the heart of the show.

I would argue in that college episode he does have a genuine concern for the geeks. "That wasn't the wallet inspector" moment for example. Then letting them come into his home. His heart is in the right place even if his head isn't - which is the Homer I like. Yes he acts improper at the times you pointed out but there's remorse at the end of the episode.

I would say there's a difference between being insensitive and being a jerk. Take one of the early episodes for instance 'Dead Putting Society' where he reads Ned Flanders' apology note at the table for laughs. Marge has to point out to him that's not on (before she leaves and has a cheeky chuckle herself). To me this is fair enough because I don't think he realises he is causing pain until it is pointed out to him.

What puts me off about the later seasons is when he starts doing things that he knows full well are going to cause pain, including to his loved ones, but does it anyway. That's where I think it crosses from insensitve Homer to jerk Homer. Running away from surgery that Grampa needs springs to mind.

LoughNeagh2017

I stopped taking following it when they made a jab about Northern Ireland saying "the Northern Irish are parading as well" something like that on a St Patricks Day episode maybe 10 years ago and they showed a load of orangemen, they assumed that all people from Northern Ireland were orangemen and Protestant. You know what some of us northerners are like, we don't forget little jabs like that. I didn't understand the joke, why wouldn't they be parading? St. Patrick is the patron saint of Northern Ireland isn't he?

astrofool

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I stopped taking following it when they made a jab about Northern Ireland saying "the Northern Irish are parading as well" something like that on a St Patricks Day episode maybe 10 years ago and they showed a load of orangemen, they assumed that all people from Northern Ireland were orangemen and Protestant. You know what some of us northerners are like, we don't forget little jabs like that. I didn't understand the joke, why wouldn't they be parading? St. Patrick is the patron saint of Northern Ireland isn't he?

I think you just summed up the problems in Northern Ireland rather than the Simpsons (i.e. everything is taken too seriously, normally I don't elaborate on my posts, assuming people will get it, but better to be more precise for this one).

PTH2009

Will always watch the Simpsons no matter how ****e it gets. It will be a sad day when the last episode airs (it has to come someday)

Some classic moments which will never go out of date

Timelines are confusing as one min Marge and homer grew up in the 70s, then there's episodes where homer and marge were teens in the 90s

johnnyyesno

PTH2009 wrote: »

Will always watch the Simpsons no matter how ****e it gets. It will be a sad day when the last episode airs (it has to come someday)

Some classic moments which will never go out of date

Timelines are confusing as one min Marge and homer grew up in the 70s, then there's episodes where homer and marge were teens in the 90s

Thats the last "new" episode I watched, I gave up in despair after that, messing with the established Simpsons backstory.

briany

PTH2009 wrote: »

Timelines are confusing as one min Marge and homer grew up in the 70s, then there's episodes where homer and marge were teens in the 90s

Nothing confusing about it. It's called a sliding timescale, and it's a device a lot of animated shows have employed to keep their characters both ageless, while still living in the contemporary world.

It made perfect sense that Homer and Marge met in the 70s from the point of view of an episode from 1992. It makes no sense that they met in the 70s from the point of view of an ep from 2010. That is, if you also accept the characters are still both mid to late 30s.

I think why retconning rankles fans of the Simpsons so much is because it feels like crappy new Simpsons is not only being crappy, but is now encroaching on their beloved classic episodes in a tangible way. Though I would say that it's an animated show, and the concept of canon shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Funnily enough, the show really started to tank when the idea of Marge and Homer hooking in the 70s became increasingly untenable, given their respective ages. I wonder if there's a connection there... :pac:

https://mashable.com/2018/04/09/the-simpsons-respond-apu/#GyaTl_NXJsqI

Apu is offending the SJW's

Mrcaramelchoc

When the hell are they going to stop it falling.cancel it and put it out of its misery.its like flogging a dead horse making any more episodes.

McLoughlin

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

When the hell are they going to stop it falling.cancel it and put it out of its misery.its like flogging a dead horse making any more episodes.

Well it keeps making money so why stop ? The Disney buying Fox deal if its passed might have some kind of impact on the show but its hard to say.

It is signed up till Season 30 in 2019 and after that who knows ?

DyldeBrill

The show went downhill ever since Conan O'Brien left as a writer. God, that man is funny...

The Simpsons of today is pure and utter trash.

razorblunt

Look, I'm a fan of The Simpsons, always have been, always will be.
I'll watch any of the episode, will I think some new ones are crap? Of course. Most of them? Probably.
Will I enjoy other new episodes? Yes. Will I recall the episode, scenes, and gags? Probably not.

But I'm in a much different place now, I was 10 in 95, I could sit down and watch 4 episodes back to back without a care in the world. Now I'm lucky to watch one. For this reason I rarely catch new ones "live" but I do on catch up.

There has been a trend though in the newer epsiodes and I use "newer" for the last 15 years or so where they really force jokes. Hard to explain, but they always try to add in another joke on top of it. I also hate it when they're singing it's just crap and filler e.g. when they're off to the steakhouse (turns out its Sideshow Bob setting a trap).

I do think they've improved the overall content by shortening the episode and adding in an additional scene that may or may not be related to the episode.

bucketybuck

McLoughlin wrote: »

Well it keeps making money so why stop ?

The bit that confuses me is how it is still making all this money?

The only relevance the Simpsons have had for about 15 years now is articles and discussions online about how bad it got and exactly when it jumped the shark, I've seen this topic discussed more times then I've had hot breakfasts. So who is still buying all the merchandise and watching all the new episodes?

Mutant z

I still watch it from time to time but not to the extent i used to and the classic episodes will always be there for us to enjoy but the fact remains it has dragged on for far too long and needs to come to its natural conclusion its had its time to shine but like most things the shine eventually starts to burn out.

valoren

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I stopped taking following it when they made a jab about Northern Ireland saying "the Northern Irish are parading as well" something like that on a St Patricks Day episode maybe 10 years ago and they showed a load of orangemen, they assumed that all people from Northern Ireland were orangemen and Protestant. You know what some of us northerners are like, we don't forget little jabs like that. I didn't understand the joke, why wouldn't they be parading? St. Patrick is the patron saint of Northern Ireland isn't he?

The Prohibition episode had a deleted scene where everyone is getting pissed at the Parade and it cuts to "John Bulls Fish & Chip Shop" emblazoned with the Union Jack which then promptly explodes and to which everyone cheers. It was cut when shown here and in the UK.

Thargor

I saw that scene loads of times on RTE 2 back in the day.

Murdoc90

How is it rating in America these days? My guess would be still well enough?

valoren

valoren wrote: »

The Prohibition episode had a deleted scene where everyone is getting pissed at the Parade and it cuts to "John Bulls Fish & Chip Shop" emblazoned with the Union Jack which then promptly explodes and to which everyone cheers. It was cut when shown here and in the UK.

Yeah it's not always cut.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Apparently there’s a huge controversy in the US about the Apu character. Racist etc. Whites are treated well, apparently, if you ignore the laziness of homer, the dysfunction of most of the town, and all the ethnic jokes against ethnic whites.

Oafley Jones

DyldeBrill wrote: »

The show went downhill ever since Conan O'Brien left as a writer. God, that man is funny...

The Simpsons of today is pure and utter trash.

+1 Also, John Swartzwelder. His Frank Burley books are great (although diminishing returns rears its head here as well). They're essentially Homer the detective. I love the opening of "Dead Men Scare Me Stupid"...

Well, they found Amelia Earhart. That's the good news. Unfortunately, they found her in the trunk of my car. Boy, was my face red. I had a lot of explaining to do there. And after I had explained everything, they didn't believe me! You probably won't believe me either, come to think of it. Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

It all began a few month ago. I was in the middle of a murder investigation.

"SOMEONE IN THIS STADIUM IS THE KILLER...Killer...killer," I announced over the PA system.

A mighty roar of surprise and anger went up.

pickarooney

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Apparently there’s a huge controversy in the US about the Apu character. Racist etc. Whites are treated well, apparently, if you ignore the laziness of homer, the dysfunction of most of the town, and all the ethnic jokes against ethnic whites.

Jesus, imagine if everyone got that upset about every badly-done accent on The Simpsons.

Sephiroth_dude

One of my favorite scenes is this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pf_eW8Qnsw

"Right, no reporters".

Utopia Parkway

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Apparently there’s a huge controversy in the US about the Apu character. Racist etc. Whites are treated well, apparently, if you ignore the laziness of homer, the dysfunction of most of the town, and all the ethnic jokes against ethnic whites.

Haven't watched any new Simpsons in ages but Apu was always one of the better balanced characters in the show conmpared to how dysfunctional most of the rest were. Is this latest outrage purely because he has an Indian accent?

Unearthly

Example of the fake outrage modern world. Think there were a few sensitive souls offended by some things in Friends when they watched it last year on Netflix

EagererBeaver

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I stopped taking following it when they made a jab about Northern Ireland saying "the Northern Irish are parading as well" something like that on a St Patricks Day episode maybe 10 years ago and they showed a load of orangemen, they assumed that all people from Northern Ireland were orangemen and Protestant. You know what some of us northerners are like, we don't forget little jabs like that. I didn't understand the joke, why wouldn't they be parading? St. Patrick is the patron saint of Northern Ireland isn't he?

A bit of a sad reaction to be honest.

riffmongous

I still watch the new ones if they are on, usually I put them on in the background. Sure the vast, vast majority of them are poor or just plain terrible, but there have been quite a few episodes that I have really enjoyed since season 11. And if I had to choose between getting to see those few episodes or the Simpsons having been 'put out of its misery' or whatever back in S10/11, it's a pretty straightforward choice. If you don't like it fine, but there is absolutely zero tangible benefit to it being shut down, every one episode that is good justifies it's existence.

Go Harvey Go

Mutant z wrote: »

I still watch it from time to time but not to the extent i used to and the classic episodes will always be there for us to enjoy but the fact remains it has dragged on for far too long and needs to come to its natural conclusion its had its time to shine but like most things the shine eventually starts to burn out.

Its natural conclusion was in the late '90s.

Season 8's "The Old Man and the Lisa" could have been a good final episode - ending with Homer suffering one final heart attack and dying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE33fbM6fqQ

riffmongous wrote: »

If you don't like it fine, but there is absolutely zero tangible benefit to it being shut down, every one episode that is good justifies it's existence.

Might have to agree to disagree with you on that one.

A 22-episode series, with one good episode and the other 21 all being poor at best, doesn't really justify its existence IMHO.

lorcand1990

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

Its natural conclusion was in the late '90s.

Season 8's "The Old Man and the Lisa" could have been a good final episode - ending with Homer suffering one final heart attack and dying.

If you ended the Simpsons there, you would have missed out on one of the best episodes ever- Homer's Enemy. Definitely worth sticking around a bit longer to get that episode in!

Royale with Cheese

Funny how you don't see any prominent Scottish-American immigrants complaining about the portrayal of groundskeeper Willy. Why do these things only draw outrage when skin colour is involved?

dan1895

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Funny how you don't see any prominent Scottish-American immigrants complaining about the portrayal of groundskeeper Willy. Why do these things only draw outrage when skin colour is involved?

Haven't heard any slack jawed yokels complaining either.

Go Harvey Go

lorcand1990 wrote: »

If you ended the Simpsons there, you would have missed out on one of the best episodes ever- Homer's Enemy. Definitely worth sticking around a bit longer to get that episode in!

Unless, of course, you rearranged the order so that "The Old Man and the Lisa" aired *after* that episode and "The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson".

As I said before, Fox ultimately decided that the show must go on while it remains profitable. Troy McClure's words at the end of "The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular" turned out to be ominous...

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Funny how you don't see any prominent Scottish-American immigrants complaining about the portrayal of groundskeeper Willy. Why do these things only draw outrage when skin colour is involved?

Because some people are unbelievably narrow-minded. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

riffmongous

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

Might have to agree to disagree with you on that one.

A 22-episode series, with one good episode and the other 21 all being poor at best, doesn't really justify its existence IMHO.

Justify it to who though? The people who don't watch it anymore?

I don't look at it as 1 < 21 but rather 1 > 0.

Thargor

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah it's not always cut.

Its like when you hear people saying "Did you know about the banned episode of Star Trek where Data talks about Irish reunification in 2027 as an example of a time terrorism succeeded? The British had it banned and it was never shown over here...", except I remember seeing it on RTE2 and Sky back in the day, where else would you have seen it back then? There was no internet.

Mr.Nice Guy

The episode where Homer gets a gun wasn't often shown. I can't remember if it was BBC - back when they had it - or Sky that cut it.

Edit: Wiki has the answer:

The episode was not initially aired on the United Kingdom satellite channel Sky1 due to scenes of flagrant gun misuse, yet was aired several times on BBC Two in an earlier evening timeslot.

valoren

I could understand the complaints with Apu if he was portrayed as the 'Snake' character i.e. a criminal but seeing he is an immigrant, a business owner and a graduate of Springfield Heights Institute of Technology it's hard to see how offensive an actor doing an accent is in an animated comedy show.

Go Harvey Go

riffmongous wrote: »

Justify it to who though? The people who don't watch it anymore?

I don't look at it as 1 < 21 but rather 1 > 0.

Theoretically, if you keep making a series with 22 episodes each season and just one of those episodes being good with the other 21 all being poor at best, viewers will get fed up and switch off - and fewer viewers will mean lower profits, and possibly losses later.

Yet, somehow, The Simpsons *still* brings in enough viewers to keep it profitable.

riffmongous

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

Theoretically, if you keep making a series with 22 episodes each season and just one of those episodes being good with the other 21 all being poor at best, viewers will get fed up and switch off - and fewer viewers will mean lower profits, and possibly losses later.

Yet, somehow, The Simpsons *still* brings in enough viewers to keep it profitable.

Yeah sure, but if you cancel the show you wouldn't have any viewers at all.