Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Adamocovic

I'm actually worried the marches and protests will have an even more negative affect on peoples decisions to come forward with information regarding rape.

So many people seem misinformed and believe our Legal system is the same as the Northern Irish Law. If people see this and begin to think the same they may think what's the point of going to the gardai out of fear the system is against them.

This harms the work that has been made to encourage people to come forward by the implementations of laws to protect their anonymity, public exclusion from the trial, keep the accused anonymous too. It's rather quite upsetting and until the people protesting seem to realise the differences and look to encourage people to step forward rather than falsely blaming our system it will only have a negative impact.

wexie

jr86 wrote: »

People like that genuinely need help

You can't help people that not only refuse to believe they need help but believe they are right.

Gunmonkey

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

A dangerously stupid statement to make. I'd like to see her try to explain her logic

Doubly so because two of the lads werent even up on charges of rape!

Just jail innocent people to ensure any guilty ones are too....sounds like something out of Stalinist-Russia, you will have a 100% conviction rate if you jail 300% of the accused!

meeeeh

_Dara_ wrote: »

As pointed out though, I have a feminist friend who agreed with the verdict. They are not all on board with this campaign. But I don't feel like I can really speak up about this.

Why not? There is plenty of nonsense floating about from both side. If anything too many people (me included) speak too much about it.

GreeBo

average_runner wrote: »

Lets be fair here, we do not know what happened.

As for the lads boasting, all that does, is tell you the class of the individuals or lack of class.

Going by the amount of time it took to reach the verdict, means the evidence was weak and jurors felt they had no choice but to deliver the verdict.

It still doesn't mean it happened or not, but one thing for sure, no one comes out well from this. It should never of happened in the public eye.

100% agree, delving into peoples personal lives and making them public is not good for anyone involved.

But I think its highly unfair to say the lads spoke about her in a "vile nature" yet its fine for her to accuse them of rape via the same medium.

razorblunt

storker wrote: »

So an injustice done to four people is better than an injustice done to one. Got it.

Here's the logic that underpins this kind of BS...

"Someone must be punished...this is someone...therefore we must punish him."

Fixed your post.

storker

_Dara_ wrote: »

This tweet is disturbing. People are losing the plot. I replied to the tweet (in a civil manner) but I'm not expecting a response.

Stop teasing...what did you reply?

Sidebaro

GreeBo wrote:

Yeah, seems like the sort of text a traumatised rape victim would send a couple of hours after the incident.

Why not? This isn't Hollywood, it's real life. People have differing ways of approaching stuff. Maybe she was being flippant to see if her friend would recognise that it was a lot worse than she was insinuating with that text. You don't know their relationship or what was going through her mind.

razorblunt

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

That graphic of "facts" going around - interesting that they choose to highlight Dara Florences statement that contradicts Jacksons, but completely ignore the fact she also states it was clearly (to her) consensual. The vast majority of it is nonsense.

I read a lot of reaction on Twitter and one thing that stands out on both sides is how many people seem to have made their minds up from the start, and don't deviate from that no matter what is presented to them. Even the less vitriolic ones on the "ibelieveher" side seem happy to discuss until a relevant point is made that throws out their argument, then they respond with a "there's no point talking to you".

For what its worth I believe her more than them, but there is absolutely no way a jury could confirm their guilt beyond any reasonable doubt, given the statement from Dara Florence and the lack of anything compelling from the prosecution side. I personally think they were probably guilty of something in the grey area, but its not possible to convict on the black and white issue based on the evidence presented.

Has anyone gone to town on the graphic? The person that created it is "welcoming challenges" but I don't think anyone has actually bothered.

VinLieger

_Dara_ wrote: »

This tweet is disturbing. People are losing the plot. I replied to the tweet (in a civil manner) but I'm not expecting a response.

Good god, theres far too many people looking to simply throw the rules we deliberate our justice system by out the window

Mr.H

Sidebaro wrote: »

I'm talking about your interactions with me. Although, the rape one is stupid, nobody CALLED you a rapist or even insinuated that. It was a hypothetical and I think you know that.



You did not explain it well, no, hence why I challenged you.



True but I feel like you are not understanding how hard it is to seek help. Take depression for example, they are always telling people to reach out. Why? Because they're aware a lot of people don't, not because they don't want to but it's a hard thing to do.



This is true and it is unfair.



That's a far different thing to what you originally said so I think you can understand why I called you on it. I can concede that they may be in a worse position but the less able to move on seems circumstantial. Not everybody is the same. If everybody was able to reach out then I would have no complaints with what you said. The reality is many people do not feel able and that is not their fault.

I do agree that not everyone is the same and its not black and white.

I do think that as a society we need to be more open about these things. While generally we talk about how young men dont like to speak up and talk, we should also encourage young women to talk. I would hate the idea of one of my friends or my daughter going through such trauma and feeling scared to speak out.

I blame our stigma on counselling. Its something else I mentioned earlier that some didnt like but I think that everyone from a young age should receive mandatory counselling. The same way kids get vaccines and check ups during their early years, I feel like they should aslo see a counselor once a year during primary school and every 6 months in secondary. This would help with issues such as managing stress and bullying. It would help them to develop social skills needed in their future as well as getting rid of the stigma about talking to someone.

It is sad that their are victims of sexual abuse out there who wont come forward because they are worried about how society will treat them. Looking at this thread I am sure both sides would scare the sh1t outta them.

NIMAN

I think this case perhaps highlights the issue of how porn has changed over the recent decades, and it's effect it will have on our adolescents.

If they are viewing a lot of violent porn online, with so much extreme stuff passed off as normal behaviour, young lads of the future will be in a grey area when it comes to having sex.

Sidebaro

lawred2 wrote:

the loolah is strong in that one

It's a bad tweet and you can tell she's biased. There are a lot of people on the other side of the fence that have said equally stupid things and far worse, look through this thread. There's this perception on both sides of 'they're crazy, we're the reasonable ones'. The extreme views on both sides should be ignored in a debate because they're just that, extreme.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

I must have missed the memo where we became a united Ireland and one jurisdiction.

Comments like "the Irish Judaical system has failed the woman", "women of Ireland are not safe"

A protest at the spire to protest against the criminal judicial system :rolleyes:

PhlegmyMoses

Sidebaro wrote: »

Why not? This isn't Hollywood, it's real life. People have differing ways of approaching stuff. Maybe she was being flippant to see if her friend would recognise that it was a lot worse than she was insinuating with that text. You don't know their relationship or what was going through her mind.

Said it already, but in some quarters, this kind of handwaving and explaining away some of the inconsistencies for her is not being applied to the guys.

I'll state again that I don't know what to think about this case, beyond the fact that each person's story that was involved is littered with weirdness and odd behaviour, going purely on what the papers are reporting of course.

_Dara_

meeeeh wrote: »

Why not? There is plenty of nonsense floating about from both side. If anything too many people (me included) speak too much about it.

I wasn't really thinking about sides, to be honest. I agree with the side that thinks the verdict was the right one. So even if there is nonsense coming from people who agree with me, that doesn't change my view.

seamus

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Doubly so because two of the lads werent even up on charges of rape!

Looking at her twitter feed, her apparent logic is that the situation was dodgy enough that they should probably be locked up.

Another one of the "if you can't prove it wasn't rape, then it was rape" crew.

Strazdas

jr86 wrote: »

People like that genuinely need help

It's only one person's opinion on social media though. There have been a lot of attacks on the complainant on Twitter calling her a liar and a slut and saying she should be put on trial etc. All it illustrates is that there are a lot of idiots posting on social media.

ShowMeTheCash

Mr.H wrote: »

No your not. You are trying to say they are innocent and attaching an *

They are innocent full stop

No I just understand the law and basic logic but I do not think you do.
What you are doing is this:

Mr.H wrote: »

The woman for some reason called it rape

Mr.H wrote: »

The woman either lied or she thought she was telling the truth.

The verdict does not prove she was lying and does not prove she was not raped. Which you are clearly trying to do an more than one post now!

The verdict shows there was not enough evidence to prove she was raped.

You might be on the right side of the argument but your logic is as bad as those who are on the wrong side of this argument.

Spudmonkey

_Dara_ wrote: »

I'm disappointed in the lack of logical thinking used by a lot of #ibelieveher folk in the aftermath of this. I know some of them. They are intelligent people. But there is literally no talking to them.

I'm sympathetic to a lot of feminist causes. (not all, which is why I don't call myself a feminist) But I just cannot feel sympathetic to this. The verdict was the right one based on the evidence presented. If the verdict as disregarded, think what that would mean for the justice system.

As pointed out though, I have a feminist friend who agreed with the verdict. They are not all on board with this campaign. But I don't feel like I can really speak up about this.

With a lot of reactions you'd see there is almost a positive feedback loop of behaviour (North Korean wailing over the death of the dear leader comes to mind) over some of the comments, each person trying to out do the next by looking the most virtuous. Until of course as someone already pointed out, someone truly jumps the shark and reckons they'd rather see innocent people go to prison rather that have potentially guilty people walk free.

_Dara_

storker wrote: »

Stop teasing...what did you reply?

Wasn't teasing, you can look it up! Far too lazy to go back and copy it.

Mr.H

NIMAN wrote: »

I think this case perhaps highlights the issue of how porn has changed over the recent decades, and it's effect it will have on our adolescents.

If they are viewing a lot of violent porn online, with so much extreme stuff passed off as normal behaviour, young lads of the future will be in a grey area when it comes to having sex.

You not think threesomes existed in the 60's?

Or do you think they beat her as well?

razorblunt

Came across a tweet just now, that has a few "likes" on it.
A woman expressing shock that "men are complaining about woman talking about this, don't they know it's happened to most of us".

I'm sorry, most of us? Most women in Ireland were raped?

average_runner

GreeBo wrote: »

100% agree, delving into peoples personal lives and making them public is not good for anyone involved.

But I think its highly unfair to say the lads spoke about her in a "vile nature" yet its fine for her to accuse them of rape via the same medium.

Well it depends on her frame of mind. If she believes she was raped then she was right to send it, but if she sent it to cover herself, then it's a different matter.

As for the guys, to describe a woman like that, is vile. Even if it was all agreed by all parties. They seemed to of forgotten they were involved in the act also.

wexie

Sidebaro wrote: »

The extreme views on both sides should be ignored in a debate because they're just that, extreme.

While I completely agree with you I find it very worrying to see that the extreme sides seem to be getting more and more mainstream and the voice of reason is getting lost in the shouting. (and not just this particular case but in general).

There will come a time (if it hasn't already) where ignoring the extremist views will mean there is no debate and we can't really have that either.

Hopefully there will be plenty of people with lots and lots of patience. Personally I find I have neither patience nor will to engage in pigeon chess and I notice it very much in how willing I'm to engage in a discussion here on boards. I don't think I'm the only one either.

Mr.H

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

No I just understand the law and basic logic but I do not think you do.
What you are doing is this:





The verdict does not prove she was lying and does not prove she was not raped. Which you are clearly trying to do an more than one post now!

The verdict shows there was not enough evidence to prove she was raped.

You might be on the right side of the argument but your logic is as bad as those who are on the wrong side of this argument.

I said "for some reason she called it rape" because that is what it is. For some reason she did call it rape. It might be because she felt she was raped or it might be because she lied. By saying for some reason you are not saying one or the other because we will never know.

I said the evidence proves they did not rape her. That is probably because there wasnt enough evidence to prove they did. But the evidence that was there proved they didnt.

average_runner

Mr.H wrote: »

You not think threesomes existed in the 60's?

Or do you think they beat her as well?

People are forgetting the sell and tell stories in the tabloids in the 90's.

Maybe people should research Ferdinand and Lampard!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jr86

Strazdas wrote: »

It's only one person's opinion on social media though. There have been a lot of attacks on the complainant on Twitter calling her a liar and a slut and saying she should be put on trial etc. All it illustrates is that there are a lot of idiots posting on social media.

There's opinions and then there's that.

She's probably young and incredibly naive but to think someone with disturbing and frankly deranged thoughts like that could end up on a jury...

storker

_Dara_ wrote: »

Wasn't teasing, you can look it up! Far too lazy to go back and copy it.

OK well do inform us if you get a reply. I'm not on Twitter...and I'm extra-glad about that this week.

Sidebaro

Mr.H wrote:

I do think that as a society we need to be more open about these things. While generally we talk about how young men dont like to speak up and talk, we should also encourage young women to talk. I would hate the idea of one of my friends or my daughter going through such trauma and feeling scared to speak out.

I truly believe that if a rape victim read through this thread she would be terrified to speak out. It seems like it's 50/50 in terms of people who believe she's lying and people who think she's telling the truth. That's a flip of the coin, would you risk it?

Mr.H wrote:

I blame our stigma on counselling. Its something else I mentioned earlier that some didnt like but I think that everyone from a young age should receive mandatory counselling. The same way kids get vaccines and check ups during their early years, I feel like they should aslo see a counselor once a year during primary school and every 6 months in secondary. This would help with issues such as managing stress and bullying. It would help them to develop social skills needed in their future as well as getting rid of the stigma about talking to someone.

I could get on board with that. On a smaller level, if every parish can have a priest then surely they can have a counsellor? Technically a priest is meant to be somewhat a counsellor but very few people find priests approachable given the history of priesthood in this country.

GreeBo

Sidebaro wrote: »

Why not? This isn't Hollywood, it's real life. People have differing ways of approaching stuff. Maybe she was being flippant to see if her friend would recognise that it was a lot worse than she was insinuating with that text. You don't know their relationship or what was going through her mind.

Ah, I think I get it now.
So the lads texts cant be seen as flippant because they are filthy rapists?

You dont know her either, yet you are painting her texts as rosey and innocent and theirs as vile and disgusting.

I repeat, seems fair.

seamus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There's far too much being made about the messages because people are unable to see context.

Where they see "posh rapey guys boasting online about raping a woman", when the actual context is, "private chat between close friends after a night of partying and interesting sexual encounters".

The language used by these guys appears in private chats all over the world, by both men and women.

We've all got messages containing the picture of that black dude with the huge dick, right?

How much stuff pops up in your whatsapp chats that you'd never ever want your colleagues or even your family to see?

A lot.

I understand that some people won't have Whatsapp chats like this. They don't have a crude mate with colourful language, and it's mostly just texts to your mother or your kids.

But lots of people have pretty open and unrestrained private chats. It's completely normal.

VinLieger

Ugh prolific bandwagoner brid smith soap boxing at the spire

Sidebaro

PhlegmyMoses wrote:

Said it already, but in some quarters, this kind of handwaving and explaining away some of the inconsistencies for her is not being applied to the guys.

In fairness, it's a lot harder to do with their texts. What you could say is that they are pressured into talking that way because 'that's how lads talk'. I imagine if one person said 'hey guys, this isn't a respectful way to talk', he'd be laughed off or ignored.

GreeBo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Such specific language you use
"teenager" and "men"... she was 19 and they were early twenties, its not like a bunch of 40 year olds and a 15 year old.

VinLieger

VinLieger wrote: »

Ugh prolific bandwagoner brid smith soap boxing at the spire

Someone set up the facebook event yesterday, it was then taken down so Ruth Coppenger could be the organizer. :rolleyes:

facehugger99

seamus wrote: »

T
We've all got messages containing the picture of that black dude with the huge dick, right?
.

Jerome?

*Raises hand.

GreeBo

average_runner wrote: »

Well it depends on her frame of mind. If she believes she was raped then she was right to send it, but if she sent it to cover herself, then it's a different matter.

As for the guys, to describe a woman like that, is vile. Even if it was all agreed by all parties. They seemed to of forgotten they were involved in the act also.

Its vile to accuse someone of rape, especially to do it publically.

I dont see how she is entitled to have her frame of mind brought in as a defense yet the lads texts arent viewed in the same way.
They were the morning after a boozy night before and sending private messages to others that were involved, yet we just decide that they are filth.

El Weirdo

storker wrote: »

OK well do inform us if you get a reply. I'm not on Twitter...and I'm extra-glad about that this week.

I replied that Pol Pot held similar views.

She liked it.

VinLieger

cisk wrote: »

Someone set up the facebook event yesterday, it was then taken down so Ruth Coppenger could be the organizer. :rolleyes:

Hahahah hilarious, I heard a rumour it was because someone threatened legal action and the original organiser got overwhelmed but this makes far more sense

Sidebaro

razorblunt wrote:

I'm sorry, most of us? Most women in Ireland were raped?

There are subcategories of rape and I would believe that a lot more women than you would believe fit into these subcategories. I think people assume rape is either aggressive assault or 'changing your mind', there's a massive grey area in between those two things hence the lack of understanding. Should it all be labelled under the term rape? Probably not, as it leads to this confusion, but I do believe that a huge amount of women have been sexually assaulted or harassed or some variation.

BrokenArrows

I think the biggest problem of this sort of trial is that regardless of the outcome both sides loose.

A large % of people still see them men as being Guilty regardless of the fact they were found innocent. Not Guilty for men is seen in rape cases as "not enough evidence" and doesnt mean innocent in the public eye.

Also a large % of people will see the woman as a liar instead of possibly the not guilty verdict being because there was "not enough evidence".

Unfortunately the court system doesnt say "not guilty because of not enough evidence" vs "not guilty because they are 100% innocent"

I think rape cases should be kept 100% confidential until a Guilty verdict has been passed. If they accused is found innocent then absolutely nothing.

It should be illegal for papers to report on rape cases until after a guilty verdict.

kylith

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, seems like the sort of text a traumatised rape victim would send a couple of hours after the incident.

Are you a world expert on how rape victims react?

During my time on Boards i’ve Seen rape victims accused of both overreacting and underreacting. There is no proscribed formula for how someone behaves after a trauma.

Mossy Monk

Sidebaro wrote: »

There are subcategories of rape and I would believe that a lot more women than you would believe fit into these subcategories. I think people assume rape is either aggressive assault or 'changing your mind', there's a massive grey area in between those two things hence the lack of understanding. Should it all be labelled under the term rape? Probably not, as it leads to this confusion, but I do believe that a huge amount of women have been sexually assaulted or harassed or some variation.

What are the subcategories of rape?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sidebaro

GreeBo wrote:

Ah, I think I get it now. So the lads texts cant be seen as flippant because they are filthy rapists?

Never said this.

GreeBo wrote:

You dont know her either, yet you are painting her texts as rosey and innocent and theirs as vile and disgusting.

No I don't know her so I haven't made definite assumptions either way. It seems a lot more open and shut with the lads texts. I'll admit, as I have a few posts back (not in reply to you), the culture lads grow up in makes it hard to deteriorate from the script in situations like this but that's not a great excuse, is it? They don't have to join in, they could just not say those things.

oneilla

razorblunt wrote: »

Came across a tweet just now, that has a few "likes" on it.
A woman expressing shock that "men are complaining about woman talking about this, don't they know it's happened to most of us".

I'm sorry, most of us? Most women in Ireland were raped?

You'll probably squabble that this isn't a majority but the 2002 Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland Report found that 42% of women and 28% of men had experienced sexual abuse or assault. Of women, 10% of this was "penetrative abuse" (3% for men).

seamus

kylith wrote: »

Are you a world expert on how rape victims react?

During my time on Boards i’ve Seen rape victims accused of both overreacting and underreacting. There is no proscribed formula for how someone behaves after a trauma.

It's just so bizarre how much weight is hung on someone's behaviour to try and claim that they were or weren't a victim.

Imagine if my phone was stolen today and I went after work and bought a new one. And then in court that was presented as evidence that my phone wasn't really robbed. Ridiculous, right?

But this is exactly the logic that was presented in the Tinder rape case. Because she went back on Tindr after being attacked, that there's no way she was attacked.

It's in the courtroom where we really see how far we have (or haven't) come with attitudes towards sex and promiscuity.

jr86

_Dara_ wrote: »

This tweet is disturbing. People are losing the plot. I replied to the tweet (in a civil manner) but I'm not expecting a response.

Deleted

How handy would it be if any lunatic within Ireland/Northern Ireland who has deleted a tweet in the last 24 hours is automatically banned from twitter