Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Glebee

There will be some party in paddy jacksons house tonight.

Richard Hillman

As somebody that has sat on a jury, I was expecting this result.

There wasn't enough evidence to put somebody away to prison and your conscience to allow you to go on as normal, sleep at night etc. The evidence of the lady that popped her head in the door was the key part. The defendants being so high profile I feel also made a subconscious difference to the jurors. If they went to prison, their prison lives and the fall of their careers would have been made public and every time you seen them in the news your conscience will kick in to say "what if they were innocent?". Jurors are human.


There was a specific section of the media/politics/campaigners that as soon as the case arose were screaming "I'll see that Quimby boy hang for this". There minds were made up before any evidence was on show. Complete Sociopaths that wouldnt have batted an eyelid in seeing somebody that may have been innocent being found guilty just to enhance their world view.

retro:electro

jr86 wrote: »

Listening to Jackson's solicitor's comments a lot of the days lost to "legal issues" the mob were giving out about on Twitter, was actually as a result of stupid, ill-informed Social Media commentary. Completely unsurprising.

It was a disgrace throughout the trial

The amount of frothing at the mouth, falling over themselves to get a pat on the back throughout this trial on Twitter was astonishing to read. Can people not just shut the fcuk up and leave their amateur analysis aside until the bloody thing is over? Nobody gives two shiits what Nora from Cork thinks about the day’s events. All of this should be kept off social media and due respect given to everyone involved. Everyone has an opinion nowadays and everyone thinks they should be heard

force eleven

Plenty of backs being slapped by sheepskin coat wearing rugger boys later on. Tally ho after that. What else can you say after all this?

py2006

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You don't get it!

Katgurl

Assetbacked wrote: »

It's not uncommon for girls to enjoy being used in that way, treated like a sexy toy or being gangbanged.

I am pretty sure she meant the courtroom experience not the sex.

Mokuba

Been keeping up with it, as best I could.

From the outside it appeared to me that she was mortified that she had been caught in a threesome. Her actions on the night from that point on, including in the taxi, make sense in that context.

From there I'd wager the whole thing just grew legs.

It was a woman who ultimately killed the whole case. A woman who had no reason to lie whatsoever. She was the one who said she saw consensual sex, with no doubt in her mind.

As for the lads - they obviously don't come out of it looking great. Their character in general has taken a huge battering and while I expect Jackson and Olding will get their careers back together somewhat, it'll happen abroad. I mean, look at the Ched Evans case, and he has been back without a peep for a while now.

As for the WhatsApp, while it looks awful, it is increasingly the norm to see similar language and behavior in those group chats. Even from someone who wouldn't be of that personality.

Laneyh

jamesbere wrote: »

I was thinking before that this case shouldn't of been made public cos it would devide so much opinion, could potentially damage a lot of people's life's, but one thing I'm glad to see is it shows this lad culture in rugby (possibly other sports) that's going around, to think it's ok to think as women as a piece of meat, so they can have there group sex sessions.

I do think the correct verdict was given, don't think there was enough evidence. I don't think she was lying but I think with both parties having alcohol on board that conflicting stories were highly possible.

yes, I think all parties involved believe their version of events to be true.
it is also damaging to all involved. Although she wasn't named, Belfast is a small place so I'm sure many know who she is.

DrPhilG

At the risk of being crude, what exactly were the other 2 guys accused of?

I know one was accused of perverting the course of justice or something, so did he lie to the cops or try to cover for the 2 lads in some way?

And the other accused? Indecent exposure or something? Was he watching and "helping himself" or what?

I'm not just looking for gory detail by the way, I've been debating this with a work colleague. She is swayed more by the 2 lesser offences. We all know that the 2 lads spit roasted the girl and she is claiming it was rape, they say consensual. But my colleague reckons that if someone was lying to the cops, there must have been something to hide.

kunst nugget

vapor trails wrote: »

Data emerging from twitter seems to be

#repealthe8th = #IBelieveher

Given that the two issues are independent of each other. Whats causing the positive correlation in people having these unified views?

In addition to this. If prior to the case I was able to tell you that people who subscribe to a particular hashtag, would post-trial all subsequently realign with a new hashtag with the same people. Does that reveal?

A) A predisposed alignment position that these "Independent minded" people were always going to subscribe to regardless of the outcome of the case.

b) Just coincidental

Just before the judge sent the jury off to make their decision you could see he was trying to get the message across that you need to be a blank canvass of thought here when making your decision. Almost if the judge could, he would have memory flashed each jury member prior to the case with one of those Men in Black memory wipers.

Thank you, I was getting worried that someone wouldn't be able to somehow find a way to shoehorn in the referendum but you did it!!!

Fann Linn

force eleven wrote: »

Plenty of backs being slapped by sheepskin coat wearing rugger boys later on. Tally ho after that. What else can you say after all this?

Not guilty.

VinLieger

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Talk to anyone previously accused of rape who was found not guilty and ask them if it ever leaves them? Now look on here and at twitter and see all the people on there who still believe these lads are guilty regardless of the verdict.

erica74

Isshelying wrote: »

While rape is a horrible thing, a rape victim is just that, a victim. They get any amount of sympathy, support and anonymity. There is a chance that their attacjer will be very harshly punished.

A man falsely accused of rape is an outcast. He is despised, he has no support. He can lose everything from his family to his career. They arent safe in prison or the outside world. Even if they are acquitted, the accusation will follow them everywhere. If you google their name it will be the first result. There will be no justice for them, even if convicted a woman just faces a suspended sentence and is unlikely to lose their job or be shunned in their community.

It is worse, a lot worse and women will never understand it because they will never be in that situation.

You're also very very wrong.

Assetbacked

vapor trails wrote: »

Data emerging from Twitter seems to be

#repealthe8th = #IBelieveher

Given that the two issues are independent of each other. Whats causing the positive correlation in people having these unified views?

In addition to this. If prior to the case I was able to tell you that people who subscribe to a particular hashtag, would post-trial all subsequently realign with a new hashtag with the same people.

Does that reveal:

A) A predisposed alignment position that these "Independent-minded" people were always going to subscribe to regardless of the outcome of the case.

b) Just coincidental

Just before the judge sent the jury off to make their decision you could see he was trying to get the message across that you need to be a blank canvass of thought here when making your decision. Almost if the judge could, he would have memory flashed each jury member prior to the case with one of those Men in Black memory wipers.

Rent-a-mob, trigger-warnings-are-good, Twitter outrage brigade. Generally, daddy issues, bullying and non-straight sexuality are links between the people.

Sidebaro

Mr.H wrote:

So counselling can stop people from calling you a rapist??

nonsense

Since this is the only part of my post you replied to, I take it you backtracked on the rest?

Counselling cannot stop other people from affecting you, no. So why should it be any easier for a rape victim? Trying to pursue a relationship, attempting to trust someone again, logging on to an internet forum and seeing some of the comments on here?

erica74

Mr.H wrote: »

Im very very not!!

You are though. Goodbye.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

I'm not sure. Rugby, since its amateur days, has had a nudge nudge wink wink attitude to boisterous male behaviour. Whether it's trashing hotel rooms, throwing beds out of hotel windows or, er, enjoying the company of young women while on tour there has always been a "boys will be boys" mentality backed up by the mantra that "what goes on tour, stays on tour".

There's many a grandee in the upper echelons of the IRFU (no names, no pack drill) who would be open to charges of utter hypocrisy if they pronounced that young men boasting about "pumping a bird" after a night out was inimical to the traditional values of rugby.

They would probably take a dim view if it was found to be non consensual or forced but if they felt she was up for it......well, nothing they haven't all done, or tried to do, in their youth.

And that, whatever your feelings may be, is the legal situation. They didn't commit rape or sexual assault. End of story.

getting a role as a leading female actor used to mean sleeping with the director.

Thankfully, this is the 21st century and attitudes are starting to change.

VinLieger

force eleven wrote: »

Plenty of backs being slapped by sheepskin coat wearing rugger boys later on. Tally ho after that. What else can you say after all this?

What a stupid stereotype comment by someone with an obvious pathetic chip on their shoulder

freshpopcorn

This was the result I was expecting from what I heard in the news.
If I was on the jury I'd also have went not guilty from what I heard.
I know house parties after clubs/etc can get very messy and people can do wild things that they wouldn't normally do.

Max Prophet

ED E wrote: »

#IBelieveHer is blasting away at the minute.

#idontbeliveher also trending now !

kingtiger

ED E wrote: »

#IBelieveHer is blasting away at the minute.

the latest Twitter outage, in a couple of hours they will be on to the next outrage

I really feckin hate social media

She probably felt ashamed of herself because of our society's attitude to sex being "Dirty"

I feel sorry for her and other girls and guys who feel the same way because of puritan di*kheads telling people how to be, now you have sityeations like this.


As Christy said, Ride On.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a huge issue with this. If you are found not guilty of a crime, you should be able to proclaim you are innocent.

This is a huge double standard.

"Not guilty" means exactly that you are "innocent".
However it doesn't mean that you didn't do what you were accused of.

Likewise being accused doesn't mean you did it.

Being found "guilty" is supposed to be the only time we can draw the conclusion that you committed the crime you were accused of, hence why you are innocent until "proven" guilty.

However even this isnt alway reliable, especially when a jury of "your peers" is involved.

Mr.H

erica74 wrote: »

That you are, and it's impossible to understand why.

Then you obviously have not read my posts and are just arguing for no real reason.


Ill give you a quick recap

I said
"I hope she GENUINELY THOUGHT she was raped"

I went on to say something like "because being accused of rape is the worst thing that can happen to anyone"

(that second sentence might not be word for word but I am sure if you checked the post it would read that way.)

I am just saying I hope she thought she was a victim because if she didnt it means she is a liar and IMO if that is the case she deserves to be tarnished all over every newspaper in the world the way the lads where and she should be called a liar. She also deserves a lot of jail time. But of course that is if she didnt think she was raped.

So there you go. That is why there is a comparison. Because someone decided to take issue with me saying that.

TheBoyConor

Correct verdict.

The burden of proof in a criminal case is that the prosecution must prove the case beyond all reasonable doubt.
This case involved copious amounts of doubt - everyone involved was profoundly intoxicated at the time of the incident, the complainant testimony was questionable is it was full of inconsistencies and contradictions.

This was the correct verdict in my opinion. However, that does not change the fact that what those guys did was morally wrong. It was discgraceful behaviour of those guys.
And I would also say that the behaviour of the woman was also disgraceful and irresponsible - a grown woman getting so leglessly intoxicated that she didn't know what rooms she was (re)entering and couldn't quite remember who she was with or what she did.
The whole lot of them behaved like absolute idiots.

andekwarhola

Was dreading it as one thing I despise about these awful affairs is the certainty of reaction. My social feed is split between friends baying that it's a miscarriage of justice; the others, that justice was done.

I'd hate to be on a jury that has to make a judgement on something like this.

Isshelying

Isshelying wrote: »

And you'd be 100% in the wrong and probably end up assaulting a man who engaged in consensual sex with your daughter. Just because you arent impressed with how your daughter behaved its no excuse to target innocent men.

Its this attitude that the woman is always the victim that is ridiculous. She chose to engage in what some people would describe as depraved sex and then felt embarassed about it. Her problem, not the four men who were hauled through the courts.

no, it is this attitude that women deserve no respect that gives young men the green light to behave in this manner.

just looking at this forum really makes me fear for the future. We seem to have a generation of young men that feel they are under threat, be it being asked to stand for a pregnant woman on a Dart, do the same job as a woman and earn the same money, or not be able to pull a train on a woman when they feel like it.

it scares me

blindside88

For those commenting “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”, does this mean that if someone is accused of something they can automatically never be innocent of it? Even if there is no evidence against them? Because after all “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”

If you’re accused of murdering someone and found not guilty it equates that you are innocent of the crime, why not in the case of rape?

storker

kingtiger wrote: »

the latest Twitter outage, in a couple of hours they will be on to the next outrage

I really feckin hate social media

I was going to say "doesn't that include AH?", but that's more a case of anti-social media...

VinLieger

andekwarhola wrote: »

One thing I despise about these awful affairs is the certainty of reaction. My social feed is split between friends baying that's it's a miscarriage of justice; the others, that justice was done.

I'd hate to be on a jury that has to make a judgement on something like this.

Indeed its time to turn off all social media for the next few days till both sides get the outrage out of their system

baylah17

force eleven wrote: »

Plenty of backs being slapped by sheepskin coat wearing rugger boys later on. Tally ho after that. What else can you say after all this?

I can say that's the most childish comment I've read on Boards in a while
It reeks of reverse snobbery.

Laneyh

DrPhilG wrote: »

At the risk of being crude, what exactly were the other 2 guys accused of?

I know one was accused of perverting the course of justice or something, so did he lie to the cops or try to cover for the 2 lads in some way?

And the other accused? Indecent exposure or something? Was he watching and "helping himself" or what?

I'm not just looking for gory detail by the way, I've been debating this with a work colleague. She is swayed more by the 2 lesser offences. We all know that the 2 lads spit roasted the girl and she is claiming it was rape, they say consensual. But my colleague reckons that if someone was lying to the cops, there must have been something to hide.

he allegedly entered the room with his trousers down member in hand.. looking to get involved. At this point the girl managed to get up and leave the room and subsequently the house.

Mr.H

eviltwin wrote: »

Have you ever been raped?

Have you ever been accused of rape?

Unless you can answer yes to both you have no idea.

Can you answer yes to both??

Im pretty sure not many can

I can say though that you can be helped through one and not the other. Thats fact not opinion!!

storker

blindside88 wrote: »

For those commenting “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”, does this mean that if someone is accused of something they can automatically never be innocent of it? Even if there is no evidence against them? Because after all “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”

If you’re accused of murdering someone and found not guilty it equates that you are innocent of the crime, why not in the case of rape?

In Ireland, being found Not Guilty just means you got away with it.

francois

Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

Mr.H

Sidebaro wrote: »

Since this is the only part of my post you replied to, I take it you backtracked on the rest?

Counselling cannot stop other people from affecting you, no. So why should it be any easier for a rape victim? Trying to pursue a relationship, attempting to trust someone again, logging on to an internet forum and seeing some of the comments on here?

Try that as an accused

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

no, it is this attitude that women deserve no respect that gives young men the green light to behave in this manner.

just looking at this forum really makes me fear for the future. We seem to have a generation of young men that feel they are under threat, be it being asked to stand for a pregnant woman on a Dart, do the same job as a woman and earn the same money, or not be able to pull a train on a woman when they feel like it.

it scares me

Well if I were to "extrapolate" everything on a scale like you do then I'd be scared of most things.

DrPhilG

Laneyh wrote: »

he allegedly entered the room with his trousers down member in hand.. looking to get involved. At this point the girl managed to get up and leave the room and subsequently the house.

Figured that.

What about the 4th guy?

vapor trails

kunst nugget wrote: »

Thank you, I was getting worried that someone wouldn't be able to somehow find a way to shoehorn in the referendum but you did it!!!

Whats your take on the alignment? Was it an inevitability that this alignment was going to occur even before the case had started. If so, would it be fair to say that these people who claim to have read the facts and made an independent and cognitive decision on the particulars of the case..Are in fact merely, going on the same cognitive bias journey which means they are redundant in terms of their ability to independently interpret the facts of the case?

Assetbacked

Katgurl wrote: »

I am pretty sure she meant the courtroom experience not the sex.

Oh, well at least I don't need to backtrack on my comment.

Mr.H

blindside88 wrote: »

For those commenting “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”, does this mean that if someone is accused of something they can automatically never be innocent of it? Even if there is no evidence against them? Because after all “not guilty isn’t the same as innocent”

If you’re accused of murdering someone and found not guilty it equates that you are innocent of the crime, why not in the case of rape?

Unfortunately that is the way our society works

These guys will never be innocent. Even if they are

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

Oh, well at least I don't need to backtrack on my comment.

Never changing your mind is a sign of power and strength.

hawkelady

francois wrote: »

Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

You aren't in any whatsapp groups , are you???

Mr.H

francois wrote: »

Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

Who cares????

Thats not a crime

What they were FALSELY accused of is

GreeBo

Berserker wrote: »

How can you possibly come to that conclusion? Are you familiar with the jury selection process?

The selection process is irrelevant.
I come to that conclusion from sitting on a number of them and witnessing people not grasp the basics of what they are being asked.

Its not "do you think they are guilty" its "do you think the prosecution have proved BRD that they are guilty".

Many fail to understand this and fall back on "sure look at him, of course he did it" or my previous example of "the Gards only arrested him because they know he did it", "he has previous convictions" etc, etc.

I was on a particular case where the accused was convicted solely on the basis of CC video footage that had the resolution of a potato.
"they Garda have ways of enhancing it":(

.......

This post has been deleted.

facehugger99

Aegir wrote: »

no, it is this attitude that women deserve no respect that gives young men the green light to behave in this manner.

just looking at this forum really makes me fear for the future. We seem to have a generation of young men that feel they are under threat, be it being asked to stand for a pregnant woman on a Dart, do the same job as a woman and earn the same money, or not be able to pull a train on a woman when they feel like it.

it scares me

It's primarily a result of internet demographics. These attitudes aren't as pronounced in real life thankfully.

It is concerning though.

storker

retro:electro wrote: »

You have the presumption of innocence up until the verdict where you are either found guilty or not guilty. You can’t prove innocence, you can only prove guilt.

...in which case the presumption of innocence must still apply, surely, as guilt has not been proven, and the principle is "innocent until proven guilty" and not "innocent until the verdict".

Assetbacked

Deleted User wrote: »

Never changing your mind is a sign of power and strength.

My comment is somewhat irrelevant to the post it replied to but it's still applicable that it is not uncommon for girls to like being treated like a piece of meat in sex and even to have gang bang fantasies. Nothing wrong with that but for some people, the notion that girls would let themselves be degraded is wrong when it's just sex and women can have fantasies in the same way as men.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Figured that.

What about the 4th guy?

Never mind, found it.

He is accused of knowing that she was raped and lying to the cops by saying that she wasn't that upset.