Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

francois

francois wrote: »

Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

I've said some outrageous things in private messages to close friends. If other people saw them, they could accuse me of racism (even though I am not racist), homophobic (even though I'm not homophobic) and downright nasty (even though I am not a nasty person)

These messages were intended to be private and told to people who would "get" my humour and the context of the words I was saying, not for them to be taken at face value.

I'm sure there are some fb or text messages that you have sent that if read out loud by people who didn't know you, would mortify you.

Judging people on a private conversation is not fair

Mr.H

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I doubt it to be honest. Women will stay well clear and think "they are a rapist".

Its not women I would even be talking about though. Its how their friends and family react. Some that would have been close friends might not be as close anymore because of doubts.

torqtorq

david75 wrote: »

Apparently the judge in the case has previous and oversaw a trial where a guy raped a 12 year old got her pregnant and somehow walked out free from the court.
He pretty much instructed this jury to find these lads innocent.

Personally I believe her.

You are a nasty bit of work!

You come on here to pass on derogatory innuendo on the Judge yet you evidently are not even aware that the Judge was a woman.

And as for the 2 imbeciles that have thanked you!

Captain Flaps

ChikiChiki wrote: »

How the bloody hell can you feel sorry for a liar??

Not guilty doesn't mean the accuser was lying, and it doesn't mean the jury didn't believe her version of events. It means that the evidence to back up the claims was not found to be conclusive.

I have no opinion regarding the result. It's just worth remembering that not guilty does not mean didn't do it.

If there's an appeal and they're subsequently found guilty does the accuser suddenly become 'not a liar'?

AudreyHepburn

facehugger99 wrote: »

Given the deeply misogynistic attitudes displayed by 'the lads', I think they can count themselves lucky they haven't suffered a worse outcome

Being a misogynist does not make you a rapist. It should have no bearing on the outcome of the trial.

Sidebaro

Mr.H wrote:

Try that as an accused

I'm not saying being accused is a walk in the park, I'm saying that your claims that it is a fact that being accused is worse than being raped is ridiculous and offensive. Your arguments lead me to believe that you are not looking at it widely enough. For one, you are assuming that every rape victim comes forward to seek help and support. What about somebody who was raped and never told anybody, just bottled it up? You said something very careless and you should admit that you were wrong or, at the very least, worded it wrong.

Christy42

Mr.H wrote: »

Who cares????

Thats not a crime

What they were FALSELY accused of is

Courts only show not guilty. Not that the accusation is false. Thus legally she has not made a false allegation. Innocent till proven guilty also applies to her.

You can also think someone who has not broken the law is a scumbag!

Mr.H

Mr.H wrote: »

I doubt it to be honest. Women will stay well clear and think "they are a rapist".

Its not women I would even be talking about though. Its how their friends and family react. Some that would have been close friends might not be as close anymore because of doubts.

He is relatively good looking and has a few bob.


He will be grand.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

They may not be guilty of rape, but they haven't come out of this looking good.

I would be ashamed of my life if any of them was my son or brother. We certainly got an insight into the sordid way they conduct themselves and view women. Any woman getting involved with them after this must be mad.

ligerdub

The usual stuff comes out after nearly every ruling. "Not guilty does not mean innocent". Yes it does, that's exactly what it means. It might not fall into your highly subjective, potentially even puritanical for all I know criteria, but the only one that matters is that legally they are innocent.

There was no rape here.....end of story.

You can dislike them all you want for their behaviour, fine, don't be their friends. For what it's worth, one of the 4 couldn't have done more for her on her way home, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be painted as lucky to be walking free today.

No matter the outcome here, it was always going to be spun in a way which tries to spin men as deviants and aggressive, and the standard misogyny line. Can we move on from this sort of facile tactic?

These lads could have faced serious jailtime for this, and they've faced a serious setback to their reputation and potentially their playing careers from this. I just hope they can resume their careers and be allowed get on with it, and similarly I hope the accuser also finds a way forward for her own life.

Hopefully those idiots who were calling for Rory Best to step down as Ireland captain and booed him during the 6 Nations can cop themselves on. There's a guy who got slaughtered when he did absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever.

C__MC

Mc ilroy was probably the luckiest to get off, reminded me of jay from inbetweeners at times when he was in the dock. But then again the girl gave 3 different recollections of what he did that night.

Laneyh

DrPhilG wrote: »

Figured that.

What about the 4th guy?

He accompanied the girl when she left the house. Dropped her home in a taxi
She stated she had no issue / complaint against him
but based on WhatsApp and text messages he made (possibly also his initial police statement) he was accused of perverting the course of justice.

He sent messages to the girl saying keep your chin up - she replied what happened wasn't consensual.
It appears sometime after that he gave the other 3 the heads up on this.
I'm surprised you don't already know this. the trial ran for 9 weeks and every detail was poured over in the press.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

My comment is somewhat irrelevant to the post it replied to but it's still applicable that it is not uncommon for girls to like being treated like a piece of meat in sex and even to have gang bang fantasies. Nothing wrong with that but for some people, the notion that girls would let themselves be degraded is wrong when it's just sex and women can have fantasies in the same way as men.

Certainly.

Mr.H

Sidebaro wrote: »

I'm not saying being accused is a walk in the park, I'm saying that your claims that it is a fact that being accused is worse than being raped is ridiculous and offensive. Your arguments lead me to believe that you are not looking at it widely enough. For one, you are assuming that every rape victim comes forward to seek help and support. What about somebody who was raped and never told anybody, just bottled it up? You said something very careless and you should admit that you were wrong or, at the very least, worded it wrong.

I am saying that EVERY rape victim is involved in a crime

Where EVERY wrongfully accused is not

One is a crime. The other is a made up crime.

The made up crime yes is worse because there was no crime committed!!

Boom_Bap

francois wrote: »

Whatever one's feelings about the verdict, their private whatsapp messages, as produced in court, were disrespectful and showed them to have a very low opinion of women.

I'm in a few different WhatsApp groups with different lads and there is some awful stuff in them if they were to be read out of the context of the group.

I've also had the pleasure of reading through one of the missus' all female whatsapp groups and there is similar stuff in there that read out of context of the group would sound disgraceful.

It's the 'private' word that you are skipping over and that these chats are expected to be private. There is also a group dynamic created over the life of the group chat. I'm sure it didn't start out that way for the lads involved.

ligerdub

ligerdub wrote: »

The usual stuff comes out after nearly every ruling. "Not guilty does not mean innocent". Yes it does, that's exactly what it means. It might not fall into your highly subjective, potentially even puritanical for all I know criteria, but the only one that matters is that legally they are innocent.

Legalese is not the same as English.

There was no rape here.....end of story.

Sure Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman are probably sunning themselves on a beach in Belize.

Shurimgreat

I suspect the excessive consumption of drink on all sides had a big part to play in this sad sorry case.

Mokuba

It shows how much attention that some people are paying to the trial - when they make statements like "everyone knows who she is now" or "pictures of her have been flying about".

I have been told a name or seen pictures by lots of different groups of friends, on twitter, on another forum.

In every single case, they were sharing the information of the female key witness and not the accuser.

So no, I'm not accepting that people know who she is. They don't.

Mr.H

Christy42 wrote: »

Courts only show not guilty. Not that the accusation is false. Thus legally she has not made a false allegation. Innocent till proven guilty also applies to her.

You can also think someone who has not broken the law is a scumbag!

I didnt say she made a false accusation. In fact thats what my argument is about.

I said I hope it wasnt a false accusation because if it was it is worse than the crime IMO

Edz87 wrote: »

He is relatively good looking and has a few bob.


He will be grand.

Great attitude.

And what about the other lads??

Mr.H

Bunny12345 wrote: »

It doesn't matter that they were acquitted - they are still guilty #ibelieveher

People like this are the problem with our society

SAMTALK

py2006 wrote: »

Guys in their position and more so footballers, boybands and movie stars have women throwing themselves at them. You can't blame young blokes for taken advantage (perhaps poor choice of word) of the situation. High fiving each other. Its just blokes being blokes.

However, today's climate may change that.

Wow...
I would like to think I raised my son to have more respect for women than this

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eviltwin

Mr.H wrote: »

I didnt say she made a false accusation. In fact thats what my argument is about.

I said I hope it wasnt a false accusation because if it was it is worse than the crime IMO



Great attitude.

And what about the other lads??

So you'd be happier that a rapist walked free than an innocent person walking free

Mr.H

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Calling you a name is the same as claiming you are a rapist????????????????

Yea ok

BoJack Horseman

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Who said that they are false

A jury of their peers.

py2006

SAMTALK wrote: »

Wow...
I would like to think I raised my son to have more respect for women than this

Yea, it is nasty! It isn't something I'd personally say.

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Mr.H

eviltwin wrote: »

So you'd be happier that a rapist walked free than an innocent person walking free

:eek:

wow. Where did I say that exactly?? In fact I have said much worse about what I would do to rapists. So take your lies elsewhere

Doltanian

I'm delighted for the lads and it was a total disgrace that she was ever taken seriously. Louise O'Neill and the other feminists must be disgusted with themselves today.

Christy42

Mr.H wrote: »

I didnt say she made a false accusation. In fact thats what my argument is about.

I said I hope it wasnt a false accusation because if it was it is worse than the crime IMO



Great attitude.

And what about the other lads??

You said that they have been Falsely accused of a crime. I see little evidence of this. There was not enough evidence to convict. I will not assume they committed the crime but I will also not assume that she misrepresented the night (intentionally or not). We have a we don't know.

py2006

Doltanian wrote: »

I'm delighted for the lads and it was a total disgrace that she was ever taken seriously. Louise O'Neill and the other feminists must disgusted with themselves today.

Nope, they are disgusted with the legal system

Mr.H

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Well what if I called you a kiddy fiddlers?

What if I said I found you on facebook and I know for a fact you touch kids??

Surely there is nothing wrong with "being called names"

eviltwin

Mr.H wrote: »

:eek:

wow. Where did I say that exactly?? In fact I have said much worse about what I would do to rapists. So take your lies elsewhere

You said you hoped she had been raped rather than lied about it

If she was raped a victim has had no justice and a rapist is walking free

How is that better than an innocent person not being convicted?

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Greysquirel09

SAMTALK wrote: »

Wow...
I would like to think I raised my son to have more respect for women than this

And one might hope their daughter has more respect for herself.

Sidebaro

Mr.H wrote:

The made up crime yes is worse because there was no crime committed!!

It just seems that a physical and psychological trauma would be worse than just a psychological one? Let's just say that counselling can undo the psychological trauma, what is your opinion on the rape victims that never seek help in that fashion? Are they better off than somebody falsely accused? If so, how?

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ELM327

instead of #ibelieveher it should be #lockherup
She's ruined those guys' careers, with false accusations.
They've been found innocent by a jury of their peers. But yet in the eyes of some mouthbreathers they are still guilty.

She's done more to harm genuine victims of rape than anyone outside of actual rape perpetrators.

captbarnacles

Christy42 wrote: »

You said that they have been Falsely accused of a crime. I see little evidence of this. There was not enough evidence to convict. I will not assume they committed the crime but I will also not assume that she misrepresented the night (intentionally or not). We have a we don't know.

Wildly different accounts of what happened from each defendant but enough confusion that the jury had no clear idea what happened.

meeeeh

ligerdub wrote: »

No matter the outcome here, it was always going to be spun in a way which tries to spin men as deviants and aggressive, and the standard misogyny line. Can we move on from this sort of facile tactic?

What ever about the rest but if the 3 of them can't be accused of misogyny I don't know who can. It doesn't make them guilty but they do come accross as entitled scum.

freshpopcorn

I know the whatapp group text would be considered distasteful and wouldn't be y thing but I do know guys who'd be into things similar but I also know women one in particular who'd be into that kind of thing.

Mutant z

They should be well within their rights to sue for defamation of character and the horrible ordeal they have been put through.

Mr.H

Christy42 wrote: »

You said that they have been Falsely accused of a crime. I see little evidence of this. There was not enough evidence to convict. I will not assume they committed the crime but I will also not assume that she misrepresented the night (intentionally or not). We have a we don't know.

No I didnt

Try re-reading the posts again.

I said I hoped she didnt make false accusations but I never once said she did make false accusation. I may have said it in the "royal she" as in talking about the difference between being accused or being raped.

I hope this wasnt a false accusation. But they are 100% innocent regardless

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eviltwin

Greysquirel09 wrote: »

And one might hope their daughter has more respect for herself.

Why is having casual sex seen as not having respect for oneself?

Mr.H

eviltwin wrote: »

You said you hoped she had been raped rather than lied about it

If she was raped a victim has had no justice and a rapist is walking free

How is that better than an innocent person not being convicted?

your making stuff up

I said i hope she thought she was raped

Not I hope she was raped.

typical around here though:rolleyes:

BPKS

Leonidas Important Blouse wrote: »

They may not be guilty of rape, but they haven't come out of this looking good.

I would be ashamed of my life if any of them was my son or brother. We certainly got an insight into the sordid way they conduct themselves and view women. Any woman getting involved with them after this must be mad.

A few years ago, a woman came forward and reported how she had a consensual threesome with two Irish rugby players she met on Grafton Street as she was on her way home from a night out.

Didnt stop them having partners now who do not appear to be mad.

Shurimgreat

Aegir wrote: »

I think the verdict is correct. It was basically a 1 v 4 argument that was never going to pass in a court of law. So yes, they aren’t guilty.

Innocent would imply these lads are angels and they aren’t. The way they treated this girl was shocking and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Not guilty of rape, but guilty of being sleezy dirty scumbags.

In my opinion of course, but then, I have a daughter and if this ever happened to her, I would not be relying on the law courts to sort it out.

Very one sided view. The jury took the view that it was consensual and not forced.

The lesson for women here is not to get semi unconscious drunk and if so be careful of the male company you hang out with. There can be a fine line between rape and consensual drunken sex a lot of the time but the line is there none the less.

But there was no real evidence she was restrained or forced into sex and most independent witnesses support.

torqtorq

kingtiger wrote: »

he deleted it

lucky I snipped it


<snip>

The irony of the fact that he is using class to have a go at these boys yet she is actually from an upper-class will-to-do background, one were daughter follows father in the same profession.

ELM327

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11 men and women decided the men were innocent.
The woman's story had more holes in it than swiss cheese. This case should never have come to trial.