Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

drillyeye

irishrebe wrote: »

Good God, you're slow. I was responding ironically to a man suggesting that a woman should not be drunk around 'men', outlining how ludicrous their suggestion was. Do keep up.

Nah, don't believe you. You were probably more than happy to paint "all men" the same as you love using "all women" as victims.

You would be a disaster in a trial with a man versus a woman. All you'd see is a woman, and automatically screw the man over.

Your belief system is downright dangerous.

Bob_Marley

Ace2007 wrote: »

A few years ago, a couple of Irish Rugby players were involved in a 3some that had a video - now one of those lads is a Grand Slam winner, there was no uproar cause everything was obv consensual. - Where was the media storm there - where were the marches about how the men were filmed doing this with a woman?

As professional players for Ireland, were they all binge drinking and drunk, and was she a drunk vulnerable teenage girl, who was in bits the next day and went to the police to report rape ? Do you think that's acceptable conduct for a professional sportsperson representing Ireland ?

torqtorq

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If you're going to play silly buggers , then you're going to have to explain why it's ok for a 24 year old professional athlete for Ireland to be binge drinking and having threesome sex with a drunk and vulnerable teenage girl and other rugby players but not a 26 year old one.

I have passed no comment on anything you have said bar the fact that you have quoted his age incorrectly.

For you to say otherwise is dishonest and deceitful.

Owryan

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've already suggested a major one...allow a victim legal representation...

Allowing an independent expert in Sexual Assault to explain how victims can react to assaults...

Banning the parading of womens underwear in court...no reason not to allow the jury request if they feel it is neccessary....

How about you, any other suggestions to improve the deplorable conviction rate other than sticking our heads in the sand????

Victims are already represented by the prosecution. The state prosecutes the case, in effect the victim is only a witness is the process.

Experts already give evidence.

Underwear could be evidence, so it could have a material relevance to the case.

Sexual assault cases by their nature are difficult to prosecute as they tend to come down to who is more believable. Unless there is a witness (like this case) or some other clear, incontrovertible evidence they will always have a low conviction rate. This is not unique to Ireland, or Northern Ireland.

irishrebe

Rodin wrote: »

Mrsmum wrote: »

Legally maybe but in reality do you really think that ? I don't know what the RRC is needed for. Sure there are barely any rapes happening, isn't that right.

Legally is all that matters.
Rape is a criminal offence. If not convicted, the criminal offence never happened.

People seem to struggle with this concept.

Easy to be flippant, isn't it, when you're not in a demographic likely to be affected by it. I wonder if you woke up after falling asleep drunk at a house party to find someone riding you up the ass if you wouldn't tell people you were raped because it couldn't be proven in court that you hadn't asked for it.

Bob_Marley

torqtorq wrote: »

I have passed no comment on anything you have said bar the fact that you have quoted his age incorrectly.

For you to say otherwise is dishonest and deceitful.

I used his current age in a simple mistake, explain why it's ok for a 24 year old professional athlete for Ireland to be binge drinking and having threesome sex with a drunk and vulnerable teenage girl and other rugby players but not a 26 year old one ?

irishrebe

drillyeye wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Good God, you're slow. I was responding ironically to a man suggesting that a woman should not be drunk around 'men', outlining how ludicrous their suggestion was. Do keep up.

Nah, don't believe you. You were probably more than happy to paint "all men" the same as you love using "all women" as victims.

You would be a disaster in a trial with a man versus a woman. All you'd see is a woman, and automatically screw the man over.

Your belief system is downright dangerous.

Wow, even slower than I thought.
Let me spell it out for you. Imagine I'm looking at you and speaking really slowly and loudly.
I. WAS. POINTING. OUT. HOW. STUPID. AND. SEXIST. IT. WAS. TO . IMPLY. THAT. MEN. IN. GENERAL. CANNOT. BE. TRUSTED.AROUND. DRUNK. WOMEN.
Do you understand me yet or is it still too confusing for you?

Silentcorner

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

That is what is being investigated currently in the UK.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5207249/Female-barrister-cleared-student-rape-slams-police.html

But you have no stats...

Ace2007

Bob_Marley wrote: »

As professional players for Ireland, were they all binge drinking and drunk, and was she a drunk vulnerable teenage girl, who was in bits the next day and went to the police to report rape ? Do you think that's acceptable conduct for a professional sportsperson representing Ireland ?

Again what has been "professional players for Ireland" got to do with anything?

If you think this is the first time Irish professionals have had group sex - than you are living in a different world. It is perhaps the first time a person cried rape, but and here is the important part - court of law has found the PJ not guilty of rape.

The marches and comments on social media have stated that it is men attitude towards women that is most alarming - the texts the banter etc, but like I pointed out before - we've seen others where a video has emerged and little or nothing was said or done.

drillyeye

irishrebe wrote: »

Easy to be flippant, isn't it, when you're not in a demographic likely to be affected by it. I wonder if you woke up after falling asleep drunk at a house party to find someone riding you up the ass if you wouldn't tell people you were raped because it couldn't be proven in court that you hadn't asked for it.

I mentioned to you before the dangers of dismissing self agency, one result being it goes nowhere. An endless loop of complaining.

So, what do you propose to do about? What end-goal do you see? What are you going to do about it, personally, besides finger pointing forever?

Rodin

irishrebe wrote: »

Easy to be flippant, isn't it, when you're not in a demographic likely to be affected by it. I wonder if you woke up after falling asleep drunk at a house party to find someone riding you up the ass if you wouldn't tell people you were raped because it couldn't be proven in court that you hadn't asked for it.

Nothing flippant regarding the law.
It is other people who use legal terms flippantly.

torqtorq

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I used his current age in a simple mistake, explain why it's ok for a 24 year old professional athlete for Ireland to be binge drinking and having threesome sex with a drunk and vulnerable teenage girl and other rugby players but not a 26 year old one ?

How many times do I have to say this.

I have only pointed out that you have the age wrong by 2 years.

I have not passed comment on anything else you have said.

So stop being so dishonest and deceitful!!!!!!!!!

Ulysses Gaze

Silentcorner wrote: »

But you have no stats...

And you have stats from the North of Ireland.

A different jurisdiction from the Republic.

With a different legal system and a different way of handling rape cases.

irishrebe

drillyeye wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Easy to be flippant, isn't it, when you're not in a demographic likely to be affected by it. I wonder if you woke up after falling asleep drunk at a house party to find someone riding you up the ass if you wouldn't tell people you were raped because it couldn't be proven in court that you hadn't asked for it.

I mentioned to you before the dangers of dismissing self agency, one result being it goes nowhere. An endless loop of complaining.

So, what do you propose to do about? What end-goal do you see? What are you going to do about it, personally, besides finger pointing forever?

You do realise most people are raped by someone they know, often someone they trust, yes? So your solution is, what? Never drink alcohol? Never allow anyone at all to stay at your home after a party? Never date anyone? How far are people supposed to go before they stop deserving to be raped?

irishrebe

Rodin wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Easy to be flippant, isn't it, when you're not in a demographic likely to be affected by it. I wonder if you woke up after falling asleep drunk at a house party to find someone riding you up the ass if you wouldn't tell people you were raped because it couldn't be proven in court that you hadn't asked for it.

Nothing flippant regarding the law.
It is other people who use legal terms flippantly.

So if you found yourself in the above scenario, you would not tell people you were raped and refer to the person as a rapist? You'd be happy to say the sex was consensual because the person was not convicted? You'd be happy to have people in your town gossiping about how you must have cried rape because you had gay sex and regretted it? Really, now?

Silentcorner

Owryan wrote: »

Victims are already represented by the prosecution. The state prosecutes the case, in effect the victim is only a witness is the process.

Experts already give evidence.

Underwear could be evidence, so it could have a material relevance to the case.

Sexual assault cases by their nature are difficult to prosecute as they tend to come down to who is more believable. Unless there is a witness (like this case) or some other clear, incontrovertible evidence they will always have a low conviction rate. This is not unique to Ireland, or Northern Ireland.

I've already dealt with this...

In Ireland, we already allow a victim legal support if her sexual history is to be examined....do you think we should extend that legal support for the whole trial or should we remove it...I mean if she is already "represented" by the prosecution then why bother with the legal support right?

Parading a woman's underwear is twisted...and not necessary...and lets be honest, one of the most dehumanising thing to happen someone in a court setting....it is probably one of the first things that a young woman will think of when deciding whether to report a rape...

Motivator

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If I had a 26 year old son who was supposed to be professional rugby player, but was heavily binge drinking and having threesome sex with a vulnerable and very drunk teenage girl and other rugby players, I'd be having a long hard discussion with him why he's total idiot.

If he isn’t 15 and he isn’t living under your roof then it’s absolutely none of your business what he drinks or who he rides.

irishrebe

Pandasteel wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Wow, even slower than I thought.
Let me spell it out for you. Imagine I'm looking at you and speaking really slowly and loudly.
I. WAS. POINTING. OUT. HOW. STUPID. AND. SEXIST. IT. WAS. TO . IMPLY. THAT. MEN. IN. GENERAL. CANNOT. BE. TRUSTED.AROUND. DRUNK. WOMEN.
Do you understand me yet or is it still too confusing for you?

Most men and women won't take advantage of drunk people, but there are enough that would such that it is stupid to blindly trust strangers.

Sure, but most people aren't raped by 'strangers'. What level of acquaintance is appropriate before you can drink alcohol in someone's presence or go to their home without people saying you deserved what you got?

drillyeye

irishrebe wrote: »

You do realise most people are raped by someone they know, often someone they trust, yes? So your solution is, what? Never drink alcohol? Never allow anyone at all to stay at your home after a party? Never date anyone? How far are people supposed to go before they stop deserving to be raped?

And theres the pivot. I ask you a question, you duck, then deflect the question back to me.

That's the problem with being a victim. You're helpless.

Ace2007

irishrebe wrote: »

So if you found yourself in the above scenario, you would not tell people you were raped and refer to the person as a rapist? You'd be happy to say the sex was consensual because the person was not convicted? You'd be happy to have people in your town gossiping about how you must have cried rape because you had gay sex and regretted it? Really, now?

In that scenario, if you didn't report him/her, and you started calling him/her a rapist, he/she could sue you for defamation.

Bob_Marley

Motivator wrote: »

If he isn’t 15 and he isn’t living under your roof then it’s absolutely none of your business what he drinks or who he rides.

It is if he is supposed to be a professional athlete representing his country, and I'll have whatever talks I like with anyone without your permission.

Silentcorner

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And you have stats from the North of Ireland.

A different jurisdiction from the Republic.

With a different legal system and a different way of handling rape cases.

I used those stats because the website had put in a FOI request this very week...making them up to date...do you think the rate is any different down South?

I don't believe the conviction rate is any different down here...if it is it won't be by much...

Ace2007

Bob_Marley wrote: »

It is if he supposed to be a professional athlete representing his country, and I'll have whatever talks I like with anyone without your permission.

Who cares if he is a professional athlete, he wasn't on duty when it happened.
You'd swear this is the first time a professional athlete had group sex.

Ulysses Gaze

Silentcorner wrote: »

I used those stats because the website had put in a FOI request this very week...making them up to date...do you think the rate is any different down South?

I don't believe the conviction rate is any different down here...if it is it won't be by much...

Shockingly poor actually.....

In 2016, 2,549 sexual offences were reported in the Republic, and 59 went to trial – just over 2 per cent.

In 2009 – the last year for which there are figures – the conviction rate in rape cases in the Republic was 8 per cent.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/the-trial-was-on-a-par-with-the-rape-but-i-m-glad-i-testified-1.3445573?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fthe-trial-was-on-a-par-with-the-rape-but-i-m-glad-i-testified-1.3445573

Ace2007

Silentcorner wrote: »

I used those stats because the website had put in a FOI request this very week...making them up to date...do you think the rate is any different down South?

I don't believe the conviction rate is any different down here...if it is it won't be by much...

conviction rate it the south is a lot lot higher than it is in the North

Silentcorner

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

In 2016, 2,549 sexual offences were reported in the Republic, and 59 went to trial – just over 2 per cent.

Thanks, do we know how many of the 59 secured a conviction?

Bob_Marley

Ace2007 wrote: »

Who cares if he is a professional athlete, he wasn't on duty when it happened.
You'd swear this is the first time a professional athlete had group sex.

You think binge drinking and getting into a very questionable drunken situation with a drunk teenage girl is a good idea for an athlete on the national Irish team ?

Rodin

Bob_Marley wrote: »

You think binge drinking and getting into very questionable situation is a good idea for an athlete on the national Irish team ?

Or indeed anyone.

Ulysses Gaze

Silentcorner wrote: »

Thanks, do we know how many of the 59 secured a conviction?

No...but take an 8%-10% figure based on 2009 stats perhaps?

Silentcorner

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

No...but take an 8%-10% figure based on 2009 stats perhaps?

Jesus...it's fairly grim...

We're talking about 6/7 convictions on 2,500 alleged rape/sexual assault incidents....

Ace2007

Bob_Marley wrote: »

You think binge drinking and getting into very questionable situation is a good idea for an athlete on the national Irish team ?

What's questionable about the situation?
Let's suppose the guys were all sober when the incident happened - what difference would this have made?

Again just cause you play for the national team doesn't make any difference and is irrelevant. As the marches/posters have said it's the way ALL men behaviour with texts, not just these lads.

Motivator

Bob_Marley wrote: »

It is if he is supposed to be a professional athlete representing his country, and I'll have whatever talks I like with anyone without your permission.

So what a twenty something year old professional athlete does in their own house, on their own time should be the concern of their parents?

Christ almighty.

TheValeyard

See thejournal.ie wont allow comments on the protest. Curious!

ShowMeTheCash

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well then, outline how they wouldn't?

Who are you to say I am making a fool out of myself?

How are you quantifying my foolishness? Am I the biggest fool here or the only fool?

Am I a fool because you agree with my concern with our conviction rates and and communicating it poorly?
Or is it because I am a fool because I'm concerned with the rate of conviction?

Come on smart boy....

Anyone who talks on a subject they have not thought through generally ends up looking foolish...

Being concerned is one thing, being critical I would think requires some critical thinking which you have not demonstrated.

One of your suggestions was to not name anyone in these cases like it is here in Ireland but you then go on to say that you would assume conviction rates in Ireland are probably the same as the UK... So who am I? You have said it yourself but fail to see the contradiction in your statements. But again even this would do nothing for convictions.

A number of people have asked you to provide what you think is a better solution, you have failed to demonstrate anything of sound logic or reasoning therefore you just sound foolish....

FYI calling people "muppet" and "smart boy" make you sound about 13...

Bob_Marley

Motivator wrote: »

So what a twenty something year old professional athlete does in their own house, on their own time should be the concern of their parents?

Christ almighty.

If they are supposed to be a professional athlete representing and playing Ireland it's everyone's concern.

Silentcorner

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Anyone who talks on a subject they have not thought through generally ends up looking foolish...

Being concerned is one thing, being critical I would think requires some critical thinking which you have not demonstrated.

One of your suggestions was to not name anyone in these cases like it is here in Ireland but you then go on to say that you would assume conviction rates in Ireland are probably the same as the UK... So who am I? You have said it yourself but fail to see the contradiction in your statements. But again even this suggests would do nothing for convictions.

A number of people have asked you to provide what you think is a better solution, you have failed to demonstrate anything of sound logic or reasoning therefore you just sound foolish....

FYI calling people "muppet" and "smart boy" make you sounds about 13...

According to who? You?

I am reflecting the tone that I feel I am being subjected to....

Can you clarify what you feel is critical thinking.... you haven't demonstrated any critical thinking that I can discern....calling me a fool doesn't constitute critical thinking....

Again, what is your definition of Sound Logic, one of my solutions was to introduce a Not Proven Option for jurors...it is used in Scotland....please point out the absence of sound logic or reason with that particular point?

If I'm as foolish as you like to believe that shouldn't take you long!

Lackey

here goes nothing....

NOT ALL Lads speak about girls like the contents of the messages.
NOT ALL lads who get drunk or otherwise are potential rapists
To say otherwise, to insinuate that woman need to watch how they dress or act leads to rape insults men.

Not all women think men are trash.
Not all women speak about men using vile language

I am no prude and appreciate a good looking man as I'm sure men do women I can do that without talking like a scumbag,

If I seen a man/teenager being harressed by women in a pub I would defend that man to the last with the women and any bouncer that got involved.
its vile behaviour that has no place in society be it directed at lads or girls..
So NO ...NOT ALL women think 'if the roles are reversed its ok.

Who ever said this was a north v south because of brexit ...bull$hit...lots of people here alone could appreciate why it happened.

I think the pendulum was swung very far one way....now its swung very far the other way...It'll land in the middle when teens today ages 13/14 years old come of age. Because the majority don't give a crap who or what anyone is colour sexuality sex....and everything in between. They judge each other on weather or not they are an asshole. Nothing else comes into it.

tritium

I’m struggling to understand what the protesters actually want tbh. I know most of us would agree their are flaws in many aspects of the justice system but when it comes to a trial like this how exactly would they propose to allow the accused to defend themselves?

Let’s look at this trial for instance. Is it hard to understand why the underwear was presented, sure. Might we infer it was to make the accuser look more promiscuous? Possibly. What about the WhatsApp texts? None of them refered to anything that wasn’t essentially conceded by all parties, time that group sex had taken place. None of them add any evidential value in terms of showing any of the 4 accused considered their actions rape. They did however very thoroughly blacken the defendants. Is that any fairer? And that’s before you consider the impact this has goin forward given the 4 are not anonymous.

So, what do we change to make things fairer here? Do we just go nice on the accuser but the (presumed innocent) defendant is fair game? How exactly should we change the system, in particular with respect to a crime that generally boils down to two peoples word?

Motivator

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If they are supposed to be a professional athlete representing and playing Ireland it's everyone's concern.

No it isn’t, it isn’t whatsoever. How is it? How are the personal lives of Paddy Jackson, Roy Keane or Sonia O Sullivan any of your concern? Did you call over to Roy and have a word with him over the Saipan incident? Did you ring up Sonia and express your dismay at her for finishing out of the medals at the Olympics?

Stop talking absolute rubbish.

Bob_Marley

Motivator wrote: »

No it isn’t, it isn’t whatsoever. How is it? How are the personal lives of Paddy Jackson, Roy Keane or Sonia O Sullivan any of your concern? Did you call over to Roy and have a word with him over the Saipan incident? Did you ring up Sonia and express your dismay at her for finishing out of the medals at the Olympics?

Were Roy Keane and Sonia O'Sullivan binge drinking while being athletes for Ireland ?

Why is ok for a professional athlete paid to represent Ireland to be binge drinking and getting into questionable drunken situations with drunk teenage girls ?

ShowMeTheCash

Bob_Marley wrote: »

And I've repeatedly asked you why it's ok for a professional athlete representing their country to be binge drinking and getting into questionable drunken situations with drunk teenage girls ? Just because the court declared it was legally not rape, does not mean she was not used.

You can attempt to threaten me all you like, report it to the mods and lets see. I've reported it to them.

What are you suggesting?
Banning house parties?
Put a ban on drinking to excess?
Put a ban on men inviting legal adults back to their homes?
Put a ban on women going back to house parties with men?

People can behave "badly" if the so wish as long as they are not doing anything deemed illegal....
Perhaps you want to live in a more Orwellian type society?
Maybe you would prefer the removal of rights?
Maybe we should start constricting what people can and cannot do?

Motivator

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why is ok for a professional athlete paid to represent Ireland to be binge drinking and getting into questionable drunken situations with drunk teenage girls ?

Because it’s his personal time. He can do what he wants.

I’m paid a salary by my company, it’s none of my company’s concern what I drink, how much of it I drink or who I ride in my house, on my own time.

You sound like a complete lunatic if I’m being honest.

Appledreams15

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus...it's fairly grim...

We're talking about 6/7 convictions on 2,500 alleged rape/sexual assault incidents....

This is what we want to change.

silverharp

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Were Roy Keane and Sonia O'Sullivan binge drinking while being athletes for Ireland ?

Why is ok for a professional athlete paid to represent Ireland to be binge drinking and getting into questionable drunken situations with drunk teenage girls ?

50 years ago you would have been in the legion of mary :pac:

retro:electro

Appledreams15 wrote: »

This is what we want to change.

How exactly does a poster stating “menRtrash” change that?

Silentcorner

Appledreams15 wrote: »

This is what we want to change.

Is it really that low? Couldn't be....

Bob_Marley

Motivator wrote: »

Because it’s his personal time. He can do what he wants.

I’m paid a salary by my company, it’s none of my company’s concern what I drink, how much of it I drink or who I ride in my house, on my own time.

You sound like a complete lunatic if I’m being honest.

It certainly is their business if your drinking effects your work performance.

Explain why binge drinking does not effect a professional athlete's ability to represent Ireland to their proper potential ?

ShowMeTheCash

Silentcorner wrote: »

According to who? You?

I am reflecting the tone that I feel I am being subjected to....

Can you clarify what you feel is critical thinking.... you haven't demonstrated any critical thinking that I can discern....calling me a fool doesn't constitute critical thinking....

Again, what is your definition of Sound Logic, one of my solutions was to introduce a Not Proven Option for jurors...it is used in Scotland....please point out the absence of sound logic or reason with that particular point?

If I'm as foolish as you like to believe that shouldn't take you long!

I have not called you a fool, I have said your are making yourself look foolish there is difference.

Are conviction rates in Scotland more successful than the rest of the UK?
Explain to me how adding a second non convict-able option is going to improve conviction rates? For me this is the absence of sound logic....

Bob_Marley

silverharp wrote: »

50 years ago you would have been in the legion of mary :pac:

You can attempt all the perceived personal insults you like, I still have yet to be given a credible reason why it's ok for a professional athlete representing Ireland to be binge drinking and getting into questionable drunken situations with drunk teenage girls ?

DavidLyons_

Motivator wrote: »

Because it’s his personal time. He can do what he wants.

I’m paid a salary by my company, it’s none of my company’s concern what I drink, how much of it I drink or who I ride in my house, on my own time.

You sound like a complete lunatic if I’m being honest.

Absolutely. We are talking Police State stuff the way some of these so called tolerant, open minded people are going on.

Tolerant and open minded only when everyone agrees with their ideology and ethos.

There is some really dangerous and scary sh1t being flung around regarding this case.