Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Silentcorner

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Where is this coming from ? Figures, Or is it it's not reported but actually reported but not taken to the police ?

I am working off the figures posted earlier by someone else, there were 2,500 reports of rape/sexual assault...59 made it to court...we have a conviction rate of about 6/7%...

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to think that half of these sexual assaults are not reported...

irishrebe

_Dara_ wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Of course it is. There are always saps around. Idiots like that don't represent all women any more than misogynist trolls speak for all men.

Well, you know, that person was still at the protest, waving that moronic banner. It’s a public act and people will comment on it.

As for us not all being a hive mind - I agree. But there has been a LOT of speaking of behalf of ALL women by many #IBelieveHer commentators across social media in the last few days. In that context, a banner that tars all men is problematic.

Social media, in particular, Twitter, is an echo chamber. It makes it seem like there's a hive mind when really it's a small group of people validating each other's opinions and winding each other up to get more and more extremist. What percentage of people are even heavy users of Twitter?

ShowMeTheCash

irishrebe wrote: »

So clever and yet can't do your own research or even a bit of googling? Since you seem to think I'm your butler, here's one definition.

You claimed to have studied law earlier, why are you giving me legislation from the state of Indiana in the USA?

Silentcorner

Ace2007 wrote: »

Ok, so how would you go about changing the way a "small minority" of males and females speak about the opposite sex. Considering you view it as "Bravado" among friends and don't speak up?

The way I suggested is you included everyone that way you don't miss anyone, but yet you seem offended?

I'm giving you a possible solution whereas you are trying to deny a problem exists and won't provide an alternative solution?

You won't get any thanks for offering possible solutions to this lot....

emeraldwinter

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am working off the figures posted earlier by someone else, there were 2,500 reports of rape/sexual assault...59 made it to court...we have a conviction rate of about 6/7%...

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to think that half of these sexual assaults are not reported...

err was there not a figure given of 67% conviction given ?

Silentcorner

Curly Judge wrote: »

Unsubstantiated BS!
There may be a 100 girls who wake up the next morning and decide, retrospectively, that they have been raped.
Hardly the same thing?

So...rape doesn't exist then....right....

Silentcorner

irishrebe wrote: »

Yes, because historically, society was so sexist that women weren't even referred to as people at all, most of the time. 'He' was the default pronoun. I suppose that's also women's fault, is it?

up to not so long ago in this country rape was a crime committed against a man...the wife was his property...

irishrebe

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

And neither would there have been if the victim had just been fingered. A more apt comparison would be if the situation was exactly the same and the victim was male. He got touchy feely and huggy, being extremely drunk, and one of the lads took it as a come-on and started sexual activity. Several more lads then entered the room and proceeded to have sex with the victim. He takes it to court and none of them are convicted because there's no proof he wasn't up for it. I wonder then would there be so much sympathy for the rugby lads? Seems to me that a lot of people struggle with having empathy for a victim in a situation they are statistically extremely unlikely to ever be in.

You have literally lost you mind! As has the other OP.

You main issue is you think these guys are guilty and should of been found guilty as this is the narrative you are taking.

But lets take this narrative, so if this was a gay man who has went back with 4 gay rugby players are you suggesting that men would have more sympathy for a guy saying he was raped than a woman?

I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

irishrebe

Rodin wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Yes, because historically, society was so sexist that women weren't even referred to as people at all, most of the time. 'He' was the default pronoun. I suppose that's also women's fault, is it?

I don't recall saying anything was women's fault so your use of the word 'also' is null and void.

Oh no, just your general attitude of 'poor men'. Were you not implying that the use of the male pronoun in the legal text was another way men are so oppressed and victimised by the legal system?

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

Did he consent in this case ?

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Yes, because historically, society was so sexist that women weren't even referred to as people at all, most of the time. 'He' was the default pronoun. I suppose that's also women's fault, is it?

Really how did that work with languages that mescaline and feminine.

I'm not sure if you're on a wind up or you really do have some sort of deficiency, so I'll leave this unanswered.

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

Did he consent in this case ?

The lads said he did, he says he didn't.

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're on a wind up or you really do have some sort of deficiency, so I'll leave this unanswered.

You said society, I asked how that would work in France for example ?

I will ask again, in your opinion, if a man and a woman who have consumed similar amounts of alcohol, leaving them intoxicated, decide to have sex, has that man raped the woman due to her not being able to consent?

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

The lads said he did, he says he didn't.

Then that's why we have courts and evidence.

Curly Judge

Silentcorner wrote: »

So...rape doesn't exist then....right....

Of course, rape exists.
Where did I say otherwise?

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're on a wind up or you really do have some sort of deficiency, so I'll leave this unanswered.

You said society, I asked how that would work in France for example ?

Again, are you for real? How would it work in France? How do you think it worked in France?

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

Again, are you for real? How would it work in France? How do you think it worked in France?

Easy women would be a feminine word. So how would it default to the male he ?

irishrebe

Deleted User wrote: »

I will ask again, in your opinion, if a man and a woman who have consumed similar amounts of alcohol,  leaving them intoxicated, decide to have sex,  has that man raped the woman due to her not being able to consent?

Depends on various factors. I'm dating a man who is 6'4 and well built. I'm 5'4-5'5 and skinny. If we share a bottle of vodka, which of us is going to end up worse off?

hill16bhoy

irishrebe wrote: »

Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us.

It's absolutely hilarious.

A lot of men go mad at the suggestion that they might be potential rapists.

But these same men tend to have the view that if a woman gets drunk and goes back to a house with a man, actually, scratch that, she doesn't even have to be drunk at all, she should apparently assume that she will be raped!

That is some double bind.

Silentcorner

Curly Judge wrote: »

Of course, rape exists.
Where did I say otherwise?

Read your post again...

More like 100 women wake up and decide retrospectively that they have been raped...implies explicitly that the 100 women in this country (50 of whom will report the crime to the gardai*) are all making it up....

You are a right charmer you are!!

*Those who do report a rape, are subjected to a very invasive body exam, very often miles away from home.

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Again, are you for real? How would it work in France? How do you think it worked in France?

Easy women would be a feminine word. So how would it default to the male he ?

Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

emeraldwinter

Silentcorner wrote: »

Read your post again...

More like 100 women wake up and decide retrospectively that they have been raped...implies explicitly that the 100 women in this country (50 of whom will report the crime to the gardai*) are all making it up....

You are a right charmer you are!!

*Those who do report a rape, are subjected to a very invasive body exam, very often miles away from home.

Would it not be safer not to contaminate the evidence ?

hynesie08

irishrebe wrote: »

Depends on various factors. I'm dating a man who is 6'4 and well built. I'm 5'4-5'5 and skinny. If we share a bottle of vodka, which of us is going to end up worse off?

Who's got a higher tolerance? Did one of you have a heavy meal? Or do you just assume women can't drink like men?

Silentcorner

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Would it not be safer not to contaminate the evidence ?

What are you on about?

emeraldwinter

Silentcorner wrote: »

What are you on about?

Miles away from home, I took it to mean should be done in the home.

irishrebe

hynesie08 wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Depends on various factors. I'm dating a man who is 6'4 and well built. I'm 5'4-5'5 and skinny. If we share a bottle of vodka, which of us is going to end up worse off?

Who's got a higher tolerance? Did one of you have a heavy meal? Or do you just assume women can't drink like men?

I thought it was clear that I had given ONE example (in this case, relevant to my life) of how two people might not process the same amount and type of alcohol in the exact same way. Since I had already said it depends on various factors. Apparently not clear enough for you.

ShowMeTheCash

irishrebe wrote: »

I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

You have already embarrassed yourself on the "drunk" definition as it is clear you don't know what this means in under Irish law.

Women are not told not to get drunk because "men might what to rape you" again I do not know what crazy planet you live on but you are coming across as insane, most people even men are told not to get too drunk and essentially make bad choices. What you appear to want to do is take a "bad choices" woman can make remove all responsibility and put it solely at the feet of the man.

Also a straight man is not going to consent to sex drunk or sober.
It is more compatible if we can at least agree the consent is at least a possibility drunk or sober.

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

There are some nouns that express entities with gender for which there is only one form, which is used regardless of the actual gender of the entity, for example, the word for person; personne; is always feminine, even if the person is male

Silentcorner

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Miles away from home, I took it to mean should be done in the home.

Oh sorry, it has to be done by a rape crisis team is my understanding, very often a woman may have to travel 20/30/40 miles to the nearest available centre...not a pleasant experience I would imagine...

irishrebe

hynesie08 wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Depends on various factors. I'm dating a man who is 6'4 and well built. I'm 5'4-5'5 and skinny. If we share a bottle of vodka, which of us is going to end up worse off?

Who's got a higher tolerance? Did one of you have a heavy meal? Or do you just assume women can't drink like men?

I have a very good tolerance for alcohol but not enough to offset the fact that he's basically twice my size, no. So all things being equal, we can drink the same amount, he'll be tipsy and I'll be sh1tfaced. The fact that there are so many variables is one of the reasons is so difficult to prosecute in this situation. As I already stated.

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

There are some nouns that express entities with gender for which there is only one form, which is used regardless of the actual gender of the entity, for example, the word for person; personne; is always feminine, even if the person is male

Yes, I get that, being a legal translator and all that. What does that have to do with gender pronouns? Why do you think this is somehow more of an issue in French than it is in English?

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Well obviously when women were specifically being referred to, then the female pronoun would be used, like in English. Any time a person in general was being referred to, the male pronoun was automatically used as the default. I don't think you understand the difference between masculine and feminine nouns and gender pronouns. Or much of anything, really.

There are some nouns that express entities with gender for which there is only one form, which is used regardless of the actual gender of the entity, for example, the word for person; personne; is always feminine, even if the person is male

in the context of the legal text which was quoted and referred to people in general as 'he'?

emeraldwinter

Silentcorner wrote: »

Oh sorry, it has to be done by a rape crisis team is my understanding, very often a woman may have to travel 20/30/40 miles to the nearest available centre...not a pleasant experience I would imagine...

I would imagine not but evidence collection if primary for getting a conviction. Contamination would lead to an out and make it inadmissible.

Silentcorner

emeraldwinter wrote: »

I would imagine not but evidence collection if primary for getting a conviction. Contamination would lead to an out and make it inadmissible.

No I agree...but our conviction rate is so dismal its a lot to go through for a piss poor chance of justice...

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

in the context of the legal text which was quoted and referred to people in general as 'he'?

Were getting off topic, You said society. I simply pointed out that is incorrect. Are you talking about Irish law or UK law ? Is the text originally in Latin for example ?

hill16bhoy

Silentcorner wrote: »

Oh sorry, it has to be done by a rape crisis team is my understanding, very often a woman may have to travel 20/30/40 miles to the nearest available centre...not a pleasant experience I would imagine...

I think originally the complainant in the Belfast trial texted a friend to see if they would bring her to a SARC (sexual assault referral centre) in Newry, before going to the Rowan Centre, which is in Antrim Town.

irishrebe

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I've lost my mind? I'm literally just suggesting a hypothetical scenario in which a man was in the same position rather than a woman. Rather funny you find it so extreme, and rather telling. No, I don't mean a gay man. I mean a straight man. What does sexual orientation matter if someone is too drunk to consent? Women, regardless of whether we're gay or straight, keep being told we shouldn't get drunk around men because they might want to rape us. Well, some men are gay. So would you agree that a straight man who goes back to a house party with men he doesn't know and ends up having sex with multiple men when drunk has no grounds to bring a rape case?

You have already embarrassed yourself on the "drunk" definition as it is clear you don't know what this means in under Irish law.

Women are not told not to get drunk because "men might what to rape you" again I do not know what crazy planet you live on but you are coming across as insane, most people even men are told not to get too drunk and essentially make bad choices. What you appear to want to do is take a "bad choices" woman can make remove all responsibility and put it solely at the feet of the man.

Also a straight man is not going to consent to sex drunk or sober.
It is more compatible if we can at least agree the consent is at least a possibility drunk or sober.

Who says we're operating under Irish law? I never said I was. But if you think there is no way to be charged with being 'drunk' in Irish law, you're very much mistaken. 
Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself. There were literally pages of multiple men ON THIS VERY THREAD telling women not to go to men's houses or get drunk around men. Guess you missed those, did you?
Who says the straight man consented to sex? He says he didn't. His word against theirs.

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

in the context of the legal text which was quoted and referred to people in general as 'he'?

Were getting off topic, You said society. I simply pointed out that is incorrect. Are you talking about Irish law or UK law ? Is the text originally in Latin for example ?

we're off topic because you brought up some bizarre and irrelevant point about French grammar. You're denying that legal texts (and plenty of other types of texts) referred to any person as 'he' rather than 'he/she'?

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

Who says we're operating under Irish law? I never said I was. But if you think there is no way to be charged with being 'drunk' in Irish law, you're very much mistaken. 
Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself. There were literally pages of multiple men ON THIS VERY THREAD telling women not to go to men's houses or get drunk around men. Guess you missed those, did you?
Who says the straight man consented to sex? He says he didn't. His word against theirs.

Would that not be evidence of anal rape in this case force penetration that would show up in an exam ?

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Who says we're operating under Irish law? I never said I was. But if you think there is no way to be charged with being 'drunk' in Irish law, you're very much mistaken. 
Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself. There were literally pages of multiple men ON THIS VERY THREAD telling women not to go to men's houses or get drunk around men. Guess you missed those, did you?
Who says the straight man consented to sex? He says he didn't. His word against theirs.

Would that not be evidence of anal rape in this case force penetration that would show up in an exam ?

The kind that would cause a laceration in the anus, for example?

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

we're off topic because you brought up some bizarre and irrelevant point about French grammar. You're denying that legal texts (and plenty of other types of texts) referred to any person as 'he' rather than 'he/she'?

which ones the ones in Latin, Irish, English ? maybe provide a link i have not seen it.

Silentcorner

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I think originally the complainant in the Belfast trial texted a friend to see if they would bring her to a SARC (sexual assault referral centre) in Newry, before going to the Rowan Centre, which is in Antrim Town.

Can you imagine how brutal the decision making process must be after a traumatic incident for a woman...

Do I tell someone...
Did it actually happen...did I actually say no...
Should I go to a clinic?
What kinds of tests do they do?
Do I alert the police?


The process, from the word go is brutal.......

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

we're off topic because you brought up some bizarre and irrelevant point about French grammar. You're denying that legal texts (and plenty of other types of texts) referred to any person as 'he' rather than 'he/she'?

which ones the ones in Latin, Irish, English ? maybe provide a link i have not seen it.

You have not seen it, despite the fact that the text I linked to which used only male pronouns started this entire conversation?

gluppers

There's a fair bit of hysteria around

I'd be surprised if there weren't female based whatapp groups in existence that spoke about men in a vile manner

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

The kind that would cause a laceration in the anus, for example?

Yes fissures that could not be attributed to any number of execration Functions.

Faugheen

Having read through this thread, just want to spell some things out for some people here.

Not guilty = prosecution couldn't prove the case beyond reasonable doubt.

Not guilty =/= innocent

Not guilty = presumed innocence (based off the first definition above)

Not guilty =/= the jury didn't believe her story.

Not guilty =/= no crime taking place.

Not guilty =/= the woman consented

Not guilty =/= the woman lied

Not guilty =/= she filed a false rape allegation.

The last two in particular, I've seen many people say that she's a liar, she should be named and shamed etc etc.

When challenged, a high percentage say the lads are 'innocent until proven guilty'.

However, for some reason, the fact the complainant hasn't been found guilty of anything doesn't matter in the eyes of the people who use the 'innocent until proven guilty' phrase above. They've made up their minds and found the woman guilty of making up that she was raped.

The entire trial was a circus and she was failed by the justice system in Northern Ireland.

Why?

She's entitled to anonymity, yet the laws allow any joe soap to walk in off the street for a look at the trial, where her name was repeatedly said in court.

What anonymity is that?

irishrebe

emeraldwinter wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

The kind that would cause a laceration in the anus, for example?

Yes fissures that could not be attributed to any number of execration Functions.

Wow, you jumped right into that one. I rest my case.

chicorytip

So the "We believe her" brigade clearly regard the members of the jury who - after weeks of listening to what was, at times, complex and contradictory evidence - delivered a swift and unanimous not guilty verdict, as complete and utter fools!!

emeraldwinter

irishrebe wrote: »

You have not seen it, despite the fact that the text I linked to which used only male pronouns started this entire conversation?

What text what page ?