Wrong Fixed Penalty - Red Light

km991148

Can I confirm - is the fixed penalty for RLJ still 40euro?*
It seems someone I know got stopped on the bike, but received the notice for motor vehicles (and therefore 80euro).

This person is anticipating a ton of bureaucracy and cannot be arsed with the hassle - what options are available?

- Pay the 80 quid mistaken fine
- ignore the letter - waste time with court etc
- call the ticket issuing authority (probably another waste of time)

-- ?? what else?



*yes yes cyclists are evil, red light jumpers are straight from nazi germany etc etc

seamus

There's a form on the back where you can dispute/appeal the fine. There's a fixed list of reasons you can dispute the fine on, one of these is "material detection error", which you use to claim that the circumstances in which the fine has been issued do not match the reality.

Since your friend was not caught breaking a red light on a motor vehicle, the fine is invalid and this is a material detection error.

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

Steoller

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/331/made/en/pdf
40 euro, confirmed

plodder

This is what I'd do:

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

They might cancel and re-issue it, or they might not, or they might cancel it and not re-issue :cool:

Either way, keep copies of all communication in case you(r friend) do(es) end up in court.

km991148

At this stage my friend is tempted to pay the 80quid- the thought of going to court (day off work etc) is even worse!

Tenzor07

km991148 wrote: »

It seems someone I know got stopped on the bike, but received the notice for motor vehicles (and therefore 80euro).

Strange, did they present a car driving license as a form or I.D and have they been informed about penalty points. Was there a car license plate written on the ticket?

km991148

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Strange, did they present a car driving license as a form or I.D and have they been informed about penalty points. Was there a car license plate written on the ticket?

They presented a non Irish driving licence as ID and the penalty reads:

"Contrary to Section 35(5) of the Road Traffic Act, 1994 involving the driving or use of a mechanically propelled vehicle bearing identification mark PEDALCYCLE in a public place at XXX"

The officer stated that a 40euro fine would follow.

magicbastarder

looks like the cop may not have known how to issue the fine and used the wrong form?

plodder

If it went to court, the case would have to be thrown out though.

km991148

plodder wrote: »

If it went to court, the case would have to be thrown out though.

ye feck that - waiting around court all day, missing out on wage etc

cython

If issued the FCN for a mechanically propelled vehicle failing to obey a traffic lights, there's an associated 3 penalty points that will probably have to go somewhere if it is paid? So definitely worth contesting

Eamonnator

plodder wrote: »

This is what I'd do:

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Fixed-Charge-Notices/Cancelling-Fixed-Charge-Notices.html

They might cancel and re-issue it, or they might not, or they might cancel it and not re-issue :cool:

Either way, keep copies of all communication in case you(r friend) do(es) end up in court.

It may be out of time to re-issue the notice.
Well worth while giving it a shot.

plodder

cython wrote: »

If issued the FCN for a mechanically propelled vehicle failing to obey a traffic lights, there's an associated 3 penalty points that will probably have to go somewhere if it is paid? So definitely worth contesting

Forgot about that aspect. Three points could affect insurance. Honestly, even call the phone number at that page and explain the situation. Apart from anything else the garda who issued the wrong ticket will look foolish in court, if it got that far.

km991148

Jesus - my friend rang them and they didnt seem surprised at all it was for a bicycle. The guard at the time was being a bit arsey - I wonder if this is just a sneaky way of being a pr!ck..

Form needs to get filled out - but surely they cannot issue something that clearly defines a mechanically propelled vehicle for something that is not.

plodder

km991148 wrote: »

Jesus - my friend rang them and they didnt seem surprised at all it was for a bicycle. The guard at the time was being a bit arsey - I wonder if this is just a sneaky way of being a pr!ck..

They don't always have the best of customer relations niceties. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Form needs to get filled out - but surely they cannot issue something that clearly defines a mechanically propelled vehicle for something that is not.

The point is they have issued it, and it will chug through the system leading to a day in court, which if you want to avoid you have to follow the defined procedure, which means returning the form.

TallGlass

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

km991148

TallGlass wrote: »

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

I really hope this is not the case!

cython

TallGlass wrote: »

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

km991148 wrote: »

I really hope this is not the case!

I don't believe there is a provision for it, but the OP is about a FCN being issued (erroneously by all indications) for a motoring offence committed while cycling a bicycle, so if you essentially accept the charge/offence by paying the fine, then you may well be accepting the points, as I believe that payment of said notices requires the licence number to be provided as well for allocation of the points?

Macy0161

cython wrote:

I don't believe there is a provision for it, but the OP is about a FCN being issued (erroneously by all indications) for a motoring offence committed while cycling a bicycle, so if you essentially accept the charge/offence by paying the fine, then you may well be accepting the points, as I believe that payment of said notices requires the licence number to be provided as well for allocation of the points?

And if a non Irish licence, the points will be put on an Irish licence should they ever convert.

Lumen

Macy0161 wrote: »

And if a non Irish licence, the points will be put on an Irish licence should they ever convert.

In theory.

In practice, this was not my experience.

Wishbone Ash

TallGlass wrote: »

Wait, what! You can get points on your licence for a cycling offence if you have one or produce it as ID if requested?

A Sergeant in the Traffic Corps who stopped me one night in Lusk seems to believe so.

He asked me to produce ID and I refused on the basis that I had no obligation to do so on a bicycle (I was feeling bolshy at the time - long story). He then asked me if I had a driving licence and when I responded in the affirmative he asked me to produce it. I told him I didn't have it with me. He then said that I was lucky as otherwise he would be putting points on it if I had produced it.

The mind boggles. :eek:

Eamonnator

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

A Sergeant in the Traffic Corps who stopped me one night in Lusk seems to believe so.

He asked me to produce ID and I refused on the basis that I had no obligation to do so on a bicycle (I was feeling bolshy at the time - long story). He then asked me if I had a driving licence and when I responded in the affirmative he asked me to produce it. I told him I didn't have it with me. He then said that I was lucky as otherwise he would be putting points on it if I had produced it.

The mind boggles. :eek:

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

Wishbone Ash

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

Well that's me educated! Seems strange all the same as the punishment would weigh much more heavily on a cyclist who also drives regularly compared to one who doesn't.

Leaving that aside, I still don't understand the Sergeant's rationale that I was lucky not to have produced the licence as somehow this enabled me to avoid points. If that was the case, it could be argued that it would be in everyone's interest not to produce a licence.

stimpson

km991148 wrote: »

I really hope this is not the case!

Surely you mean your friend really hopes this is not the case?

Eamonnator

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Well that's me educated! Seems strange all the same as the punishment would weigh much more heavily on a cyclist who also drives regularly compared to one who doesn't.

Leaving that aside, I still don't understand the Sergeant's rationale that I was lucky not to have produced the licence as somehow this enabled me to avoid points. If that was the case, it could be argued that it would be in everyone's interest not to produce a licence.

Speaking as a retired Traffic Corps Sergeant, I don't understand his rationale either.
And if I were stopped on my bike, for committing a traffic offence, the last thing I would do is admit that I had a driving licence.

stimpson

Eamonnator wrote: »

Speaking as a retired Traffic Corps Sergeant, I don't understand his rationale either.
And if I were stopped on my bike, for committing a traffic offence, the last thing I would do is admit that I had a driving licence.

Is it not an offence to lie to a Garda?

Eamonnator

stimpson wrote: »

Is it not an offence to lie to a Garda?

Whe I was young Garda, I was given the following advice:
Admit, what cannot be denied.
Deny, what cannot be proved.
And, when in doubt, say nothing.

fritzelly

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

Well I'll be damned, never knew that - funny in too many ways
But...I think it should be the case

magicbastarder

stimpson wrote: »

Is it not an offence to lie to a Garda?

i've had gardai lie to me, or invent information i'd given them. the thing is, they can do that with impunity, but i can't.

plodder

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

I wonder what he was actually charged with. I guess the fact he crashed into someone's car put it into another category that's a bit different from the OP whose friend just broke a red light with no other consequences.

fritzelly

plodder wrote: »

I wonder what he was actually charged with. I guess the fact he crashed into someone's car put it into another category that's a bit different from the OP whose friend just broke a red light with no other consequences.

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.
No if's but when but woeful cycle lanes in Ireland don't help...
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106577607&postcount=900