Wrong Fixed Penalty - Red Light

Eamonnator

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've had gardai lie to me, or invent information i'd given them. the thing is, they can do that with impunity, but i can't.

I've had offenders lie to me, perjure themselves in court and gotten away with it, and been unable to do anything about it.

magicbastarder

ah yeah, at least you should expect that from the scrotes.

plodder

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.
No if's but when but woeful cycle lanes in Ireland don't help...
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106577607&postcount=900

Sure. The whole point of the thread is that the OP was thinking of paying the 80 euro fine for a car breaking a red light when it should have been 40 euro for a bike. It sounds like he was accepting the correct penalty, as I think he should.

Eamonnator

magicbastarder wrote: »

ah yeah, at least you should expect that from the scrotes.

It's funny that, but the people, that sprang to mind, when I was posting, were people who would be considered as pillars of the community. I tended to expect it from the stores and forget it.

CeilingFly

Macy0161 wrote: »

And if a non Irish licence, the points will be put on an Irish licence should they ever convert.

Nope, that changed. The points are registered to you at the address you give for a period of 3 years. If a licence is registered by you in that period, the remaining time is applied to your licence.

magicbastarder

Eamonnator wrote: »

The Sergeant may well be correct. Here's a case from 2010:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/injured-cyclist-gets-driving-ban-for-breaking-red-light-26661405.html

This lad was banned from driving. I don't see why penalty points could not also be applied.

interestingly, the caption on the photo mentions an intended appeal; any way to check if such an appeal was lodged?

sy_flembeck

magicbastarder wrote: »

interestingly, the caption on the photo mentions an intended appeal; any way to check if such an appeal was lodged?

I must say John Cully, 38, of Pleasant Street, Dublin (but originally from Ballyfermot), does look very annoyed about the whole thing. He's even folded his arms!

fritzelly

sy_flembeck wrote: »

I must say John Cully, 38, of Pleasant Street, Dublin (but originally from Ballyfermot), does look very annoyed about the whole thing. He's even folded his arms!

Surprised he is able to even lift his arm to cross his arms, must be really annoyed to break thru that pain barrier

The end of that article is very funny tho.

Kaisr Sose

km991148 wrote: »

ye feck that - waiting around court all day, missing out on wage etc

Maybe your friend would not mind a day in court

Wishbone Ash

Eamonnator wrote: »

Speaking as a retired Traffic Corps Sergeant, I don't understand his rationale either.
And if I were stopped on my bike, for committing a traffic offence, the last thing I would do is admit that I had a driving licence.

The issue was that I did not believe that I had committed any offence, despite the Sergeant's over the top 'Starsky & Hutch' style apprehension of me by swerving in and blocking my path as if I had just robbed a bank even though I had decided to cycle home from work on a public road rather than on a segregated cycle track of dubious design and signage.

I disputed his accusations and asked several times to be charged with the said offence but he seemed reluctant to do so preferring to enjoy the sound of his own voice giving a lecture about an offence which, in my opinion had not been committed.

What really annoyed me most was that during the whole episode he didn't once make any eye contact with me but continually looked from left to right or above my head. I'm not a difficult person to deal with!

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights...

All road users should be issued with fines for that.

plodder wrote: »

Sure. The whole point of the thread is that the OP was thinking of paying the 80 euro fine..

No, no - his friend was.

AndrewJRenko

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision?

magicbastarder

eh... yes? we've seen videos on this forum of cyclists running red lights and colliding with cars; e.g. the deliveroo chap on dame street recently.

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

eh... yes? we've seen videos on this forum of cyclists running red lights and colliding with cars; e.g. the deliveroo chap on dame street recently.

Sorry, I should have been clearer:

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

Wishbone Ash

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

...Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

Perhaps not with others in a motor vehicle but I'd imagine there must be a few cyclist v. pedestrian injuries. I can't verify though.

I witnessed one myself last year at the junction of Parliament Street and Cork Hill. I was waiting at the lights when another cyclist sped through and collided with a female pedestrian (looked like a tourist) causing her head injuries. The cyclist stayed at the scene for a while while we called an ambulance but what annoyed me was that she kept apologising to the cyclist even though she had a green pedestrian light.

km991148

stimpson wrote: »

Surely you mean your friend really hopes this is not the case?

Sorry - to clarify -
I am hoping it's not the case for my friend

---

This is typical nonsense tho - and genuinely not sure what should be done.. annoying as hell - gotta start with the appeal first tho I guess.
I really dont see how a FCN could stand up in court when it is clearly worded for a car - but it would foolish to take it to court and meet with a judge who would be equally pissed off about wasting taxpayer money.

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, I should have been clearer:

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

i assume you mean - based on the original quoted post - has there ever been a verified case in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary accident they were not themselves caught up in, due to motorists having to take evasive action?

stimpson

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, I should have been clearer:

Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?

There was a lad who got 18 months for killing a pedestrian last year in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assume you mean - based on the original quoted post - has there ever been a verified case in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary accident they were not themselves caught up in, due to motorists having to take evasive action?

Nearly ;

has there ever been a verified case in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary collision due to motorists having to take evasive action?

I'm not really bothered whether the cyclist was caught up in the collision or not - just as to whether the old trope about "motorists having to take evasive action and crash" actually stands up.

AndrewJRenko

stimpson wrote: »

There was a lad who got 18 months for killing a pedestrian last year in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told

Nothing to do with breaking a red light, nothing to do with motorist taking evasive action and nothing to do with Ireland

stimpson

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nothing to do with breaking a red light, nothing to do with motorist taking evasive action and nothing to do with Ireland

I need to check but I think the laws of physics apply in both jurisdictions and I’m almost positive that red lights do not offer any protection from injury.

AndrewJRenko

stimpson wrote: »

I need to check but I think the laws of physics apply in both jurisdictions and I’m almost positive that red lights do not offer any protection from injury.

You might want to go back to the question that I asked and that you quoted in your answer, so presumably you were answering that question, which was: "Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?"

If you're trying to make some general point beyond the scope of this thread that cyclists can kill people - yes, most people know that cyclists can kill people. Just for context, in the UK, cyclists kill 1 or 2 people each year, while motorists kill 4 or 5 people each day. In Ireland, it is more than 15 years since a cyclist killed a pedestrian, while motorists have killed over 4,500 in that time.

So now, back to the red lights question;

has there ever been a verified case in Ireland in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary collision due to motorists having to take evasive action?

stimpson

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You might want to go back to the question that I asked and that you quoted in your answer, so presumably you were answering that question, which was: "Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?"

If you're trying to make some general point beyond the scope of this thread that cyclists can kill people - yes, most people know that cyclists can kill people. Just for context, in the UK, cyclists kill 1 or 2 people each year, while motorists kill 4 or 5 people each day. In Ireland, it is more than 15 years since a cyclist killed a pedestrian, while motorists have killed over 4,500 in that time.

So now, back to the red lights question;

has there ever been a verified case in Ireland in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary collision due to motorists having to take evasive action?

Assuming, for argument sake, that there hasn’t been. What’s your point?

AndrewJRenko

stimpson wrote: »

Assuming, for argument sake, that there hasn’t been. What’s your point?

My point is that those who come out with these kinds of what-ifs might want to look elsewhere for the source of the danger on the roads.

fritzelly wrote: »

Cyclists should be issued with fines for breaking red lights, maybe not hurt anyone but what about the car that had to break nearly causing an accident or the pedestrian who nearly got whalloped and so on.

stimpson

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

My point is that those who come out with these kinds of what-ifs might want to look elsewhere for the source of the danger on the roads.

Cyclists who don’t obey the rules of the road are a danger. Pointing the finger at car drivers is just whataboutery. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and not look for excuses or to pass the buck.

magicbastarder

stimpson wrote: »

Assuming, for argument sake, that there hasn’t been. What’s your point?

i think the point is that an argument is often made that 'you are not just endangering yourself or people you directly crash into, but you are also risking causing an accident when people have to avoid you'.
i've seen that argument being made. the issue is whether these secondary accidents are Actually A Thing.

stimpson

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think the point is that an argument is often made that 'you are not just endangering yourself or people you directly crash into, but you are also risking causing an accident when people have to avoid you'.
i've seen that argument being made. the issue is whether these secondary accidents are Actually A Thing.

If that’s the point then it’s a bit ****ing childish to argue that if you accept that primary accidents are actually a thing.

fritzelly

All you are doing is arguing that we shouldn't care if cyclists break red lights because no one (in Ireland) has been very seriously injured. Point is they are breaking the rules of the road that apply to all users of it.
In the case of the taxi driver - who is paying for his repairs and loss of earnings, it's not all down to physical injury.
It's not right that pedestrians have to jump out of the way because of some selfish cyclist is flying thu a pedestrian crossing when he should stop. If it was a car you would be suing the insurance company, with a cyclist you have to take a claim case against the individual
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/pedestrian-who-sued-teen-cyclist-over-collision-settles-case-1.3361483

how.gareth

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You might want to go back to the question that I asked and that you quoted in your answer, so presumably you were answering that question, which was: "Has there been a single verifiable case in Ireland of a cyclist breaking a red light causing a collision that injured anyone other than the cyclist themself?"

If you're trying to make some general point beyond the scope of this thread that cyclists can kill people - yes, most people know that cyclists can kill people. Just for context, in the UK, cyclists kill 1 or 2 people each year, while motorists kill 4 or 5 people each day. In Ireland, it is more than 15 years since a cyclist killed a pedestrian, while motorists have killed over 4,500 in that time.

So now, back to the red lights question;

has there ever been a verified case in Ireland in which a cyclist broke a red light and caused a secondary collision due to motorists having to take evasive action?

Did a cyclist kill a pedestrian in the Phoenix Park recently or vice versa?

Lumen

how.gareth wrote: »

Did a cyclist kill a pedestrian in the Phoenix Park recently or vice versa?

The cyclist died.

Lumen

fritzelly wrote: »

All you are doing is arguing that we shouldn't care if cyclists break red lights because no one (in Ireland) has been very seriously injured.

Please quote the post where someone argued that.

I don't think anyone on this forum has EVER argued that cyclists should break red lights. And there's a lot of arguing on this forum, so you would think it would have been advanced as an argument at some point if it was a widely (or even narrowly) held belief*.

But in the context of this thread, where a person is having a motoring penalty applied to a cycling offence, it is not "whataboutery" to compare third party injury stats between motoring and cycling as one factor in whether it's an appropriate thing to do.

* actually I think there was one thread where a RLJer (see, we even have a name for them) came on to moan about its pending court appearance. That got short shrift.