So does hell exist or what

frag420

So it seems hell does not exist after all, our evil souls just vanish?

So whats happening, is Christianity just making it up as its goes along?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/pope-francis-abolishes-hell-saying-souls-of-unrepentant-sinners-will-simply-disappear-pwlv6l667?CMP=Sprkr-_-Editorial-_-thetimes-_-Unspecified-_-TWITTER

It is been accepted Christian doctrine since the founding of the church, but Pope Francis appears this morning to have abolished Hell.

In a move that will enrage conservative Catholics, the Pontiff told La Repubblica that the souls of unrepentant sinners were not punished in the afterlife, but simply disappeared.

Stonedpilot

Pope Francis is a false prophet Christ warned us about 2000 years ago!. A disgusting vile human being the Pope is. He needs to repent more than anyone. Can't fathom why anyone follow this Charlatan and Liar. Hell is very real from the Bible. Just 3 quotes.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:50Francis is a massive false prophet, he needs to repent more than anyone. A disgusting human being. Can't fathom why anyone would follow this false prophet, Christ warned us 2000 years ago about liars and Pied Pipers like him!. Hell is very real.

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

The list goes on and on but you get the message.


But seriously anyone following the Pope and his false Church is massively deceived.


Jesus Christ Lord, Messiah and Savior saves us from Religion.

Hallelujah!.

pauldla

Well there's a can of worms reopened. Wasn't this being discussed with some vigour by two of our regular contributors recently?

Of course, Francis hasn't abolished Hell. He wasn't speaking ex cathedra, for one thing (one could take the alternative view that one cannot abolish that which didn't exist in the first place).

Peatys

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Hell is very real from the Bible. Just 3 quotes.

Hallelujah!.

Yeah, that's what makes it real

kelly1

Pope Francis has been coming out with some very suspect (heretical) statements. I don't trust him. I'll bet he's either a Freemason or heavily influenced by them. Our Lady has warned us about this sort of thing several times in her apparitions.

Having said that I remain a faithful Catholic.

[EDIT]
https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-claim-pope-denied-hells-existence-unreliable

branie2

This coming from a man who canonised two children who had a vision of Hell.

Stonedpilot

kelly1 wrote: »

Pope Francis has been coming out with some very suspect (heretical) statements. I don't trust him. I'll bet he's either a Freemason or heavily influenced by them. Our Lady has warned us about this sort of thing several times in her apparitions.

Having said that I remain a faithful Catholic.

[EDIT]
https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-claim-pope-denied-hells-existence-unreliable

Its the Jesuits that run the show of the Catholic Church not the Freemasons.

Put your faith in Christ its the only way to God!.

kelly1

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Its the Jesuits that run the show of the Catholic Church not the Freemasons.

Put your faith in Christ its the only way to God!.

I've heard that theory but I haven't researched it. But I've come across a lot a material giving evidence that the Church has been infiltrated by Freemasons.

Achasanai

Stonedpilot wrote: »

But seriously anyone following the Pope and his false Church is massively deceived.


Jesus Christ Lord, Messiah and Savior saves us from Religion.

Hallelujah!.

I'm guessing Francis thought the theory behind hell - and who controls it, and so who exactly is committing souls to an eternity of torture - is a little bit psychopathic and untenable for a Christian God.

TheValeyard

Think he's simply asking people to think outside the box, not a simplistic view of heaven and hell

kelly1

Achasanai wrote: »

I'm guessing Francis thought the theory behind hell - and who controls it, and so who exactly is committing souls to an eternity of torture - is a little bit psychopathic and untenable for a Christian God.

Hell is not a theory. Jesus mentioned it several times, more than heaven in fact.

Stonedpilot

Achasanai wrote: »

I'm guessing Francis thought the theory behind hell - and who controls it, and so who exactly is committing souls to an eternity of torture - is a little bit psychopathic and untenable for a Christian God.

Hell was created for Satan and its Satan that captures souls there and does as he pleases with them. NOT GOD!.

God gives us a lifetime to repent. Takes oh 3 minutes maybe?. But most rather go on selfishly ignoring the creator and sinning hence the messed up World we have. Look at most people are they spiritually happy?. Rich celebs etc?. Nope its meaningless junk without meeting Christ.

God loves humanity hence Jesus coming to Earth to atone for mans sin/wickedness.

Man could never reach Gods holiness so holiness came to man.

The Pope is head of a false church. A liar and deceiver he is.

Bible explains the rise of false Churches.

Achasanai

kelly1 wrote: »

Hell is not a theory. Jesus mentioned it several times, more than heaven in fact.

The theory behind hell. You can have a theory behind a real thing.

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Hell was created for Satan and its Satan that captures souls there and does as he pleases with them. NOT GOD!.

So, God created hell as a place of punishment and torture for people's eternal souls?

What's confusing (to me) is that God prepares hell for those who reject God/Jesus. Does that not include Satan? And yet here you have it, that Satan is the one capturing the souls and that he 'does as he pleases with them'.

Stonedpilot

Achasanai wrote: »

The theory behind hell. You can have a theory behind a real thing.



So, God created hell as a place of punishment and torture for people's eternal souls?

What's confusing (to me) is that God prepares hell for those who reject God/Jesus. Does that not include Satan? And yet here you have it, that Satan is the one capturing the souls and that he 'does as he pleases with them'.

Hell is for Satan not humanity. Its Satan turns it into a place of torture as he despises God and his creation. Up to you where you CHOOSE to go.

Its in there in the Bible amigo!.

Seth Brundle

kelly1 wrote: »

Hell is not a theory. Jesus mentioned it several times, more than heaven in fact.

erm, in what?

looksee

As has been pointed out previously, why would Satan torture people who are apparently going along with him, certainly going against God by not accepting him. The basic logic is so flawed its hard to take it seriously. If you were going to take any of it seriously anyway.

Achasanai

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Hell is for Satan not humanity.

But a significant majority of humanity are being tortured there, right?

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Its Satan turns it into a place of torture as he despises God and his creation. Up to you where you CHOOSE to go.

But what sort of place was hell supposed to be before Satan turned it into a place of torture? What intention did God have for hell before Satan was thrown in there?

looksee

kbannon wrote: »

erm, in what?

That's fair enough. If you accept biblical references to Jesus, it can easily be a fact that he mentioned hell more than heaven. In the same way that it is a fact that Harry Potter referred to Snape and Dumbledore.

Reati

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Pope Francis is a false prophet Christ warned us about 2000 years ago!. A disgusting vile human being the Pope is. He needs to repent more than anyone. Can't fathom why anyone follow this Charlatan and Liar.

Spoken like a true Christian...

Caliden

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Pope Francis is a false prophet Christ warned us about 2000 years ago!. A disgusting vile human being the Pope is. He needs to repent more than anyone. Can't fathom why anyone follow this Charlatan and Liar. Hell is very real from the Bible. Just 3 quotes.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:50Francis is a massive false prophet, he needs to repent more than anyone. A disgusting human being. Can't fathom why anyone would follow this false prophet, Christ warned us 2000 years ago about liars and Pied Pipers like him!. Hell is very real.

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

The list goes on and on but you get the message.


But seriously anyone following the Pope and his false Church is massively deceived.


Jesus Christ Lord, Messiah and Savior saves us from Religion.

Hallelujah!.

When you use the word 'us' here, what 'us' are you referring to?

Catholics or mankind?

hobie21

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell beneath us
Above us only sky.

Hopefully the religious zealots wake up soon

uck51js9zml2yt

kbannon wrote: »

erm, in what?

Choice A - the atheist handbook
Choice B - the Bible

Clue... It's not A;)

Larbre34

My Mother-in-law's gaff is a fair approximation of the bibical hint.

uck51js9zml2yt

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Pope Francis is a false prophet Christ warned us about 2000 years ago!. A disgusting vile human being the Pope is. He needs to repent more than anyone. Can't fathom why anyone follow this Charlatan and Liar. Hell is very real from the Bible.

I love how balanced this post is

Disclaimer: the above post does not reflect the opinions of all contributors to this forum!

Bubbaclaus

branie2 wrote: »

This coming from a man who canonised two children who had a vision of Hell.

This is a very good point. So the Pope doesn't believe the events of Fatima actually happened based on this recent statement. So why did he canonise them?

Delirium

hobie21 wrote: »

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell beneath us
Above us only sky.

Hopefully the religious zealots wake up soon

MOD NOTE

Please be aware that you're posting in the Christianity forum and referring to Christians as 'religious zealots' is not appropriate.

Please raise the standard of your posts if you wish to avoid further moderator actions.

Thanks for your attention.

super_furry

I know it might sound reductive but didn't the catholic church already do away with limbo? If they can do that, then surely they can decide hell doesn't exist as a place either.

Seth Brundle

Faith Mushy Smallpox wrote: »

Choice A - the atheist handbook
Choice B - the Bible

Clue... It's not A;)

So the fact is from B (the bible)?
Really? Actual facts?
So Christianity is no longer based on faith?

kelly1

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Jesus Christ Lord, Messiah and Savior saves us from Religion.

I find it rather bizarre to say that Christianity is not a religion. What is it then? Nothing more than a one-to-one relationship with Jesus? No need for a Church?

And your Pope Francis comments are just off the insanity scale. Reminds me of the "Rev" Ian Paisley.

[EDIT] Sounds like a journalist is stirring the sh*t:
https://aleteia.org/2018/03/30/3-times-pope-francis-warned-about-hell/?utm_campaign=english_page&utm_medium=aleteia_en&utm_source=Facebook

looksee

super_furry wrote: »

I know it might sound reductive but didn't the catholic church already do away with limbo? If they can do that, then surely they can decide hell doesn't exist as a place either.

As I recall the RCC created limbo, so I suppose it is entitled to do away with it too. Though they never said what they had done with the residents, I think. Hell was around for rather longer.

Bob_Marley

super_furry wrote: »

I know it might sound reductive but didn't the catholic church already do away with limbo? If they can do that, then surely they can decide hell doesn't exist as a place either.

Limbo was never a place, nor was it ever a Catholic doctrine. It was a speculative theology term used by speculative theologians to mean "we don't know".

The media are the least truthful and least reliable source of actual Catholic doctrine / news.

iamtony

I've never bothered to get into it with you lot but just stumbled across this thread so excuse me if it's off topic.

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does.
Questions I have for believers in the fairytale.
1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway.
2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

Johnnyhpipe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Limbo was never a place, nor was it ever a Catholic doctrine. It was a speculative theology term used by speculative theologians to mean "we don't know".

The media are the least truthful and least reliable source of actual Catholic doctrine / news.

Then shouldn’t hell, heaven and ‘limbo’ all be called limbo - because we don’t know.. Personally however I find it impossible to believe in something which has absolutely zero evidence.

dar100

kelly1 wrote: »

Hell is not a theory. Jesus mentioned it several times, more than heaven in fact.

You fail to understand the cinceot of a theory then

Squall Leonhart

iamtony wrote:

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does. Questions I have for believers in the fairytale. 1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway. 2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

Before I respond to your questions, please note I am a resolute atheist. No belief in any kind of life after this and the notion of hell has always struck me as absurd, the same as the description of heaven being an eternity of worshipping and praising God to be one I'd happily avoid

1) That all works well in theory I guess, but we don't all get a moment of reflection to repent for our sins before we die. Could be a sudden heart attack, or car crash etc.

2) You're assuming all practicing religious person is only practicing because it's the environment they were raised in. There are many many converts, or people half ass raised in a faith who did their own soul searching and then committed themselves to a belief system.

Delirium

iamtony wrote: »

I've never bothered to get into it with you lot but just stumbled across this thread so excuse me if it's off topic.

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does.
Questions I have for believers in the fairytale.
1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway.
2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

MOD NOTE

Please be aware that referring to Christian beliefs as 'fairytales' or 'crazy ness' is not acceptable.

Please refrain from insulting Christian beliefs.

Thanks for your attention.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

I've never bothered to get into it with you lot but just stumbled across this thread so excuse me if it's off topic.

Well firstly we are not a "your lot", Christians are a diverse group of people like anyone else.

iamtony wrote: »

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does.
Questions I have for believers in the fairytale.
1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway.
2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

1. Unless it's a genuine change of heart (which can happen), I don't think trying the first stunt is going to fool God. Also why would/should a genuinely believing person not try to practice what they believe in, why would they wait until their deathbed to practice what they believe ?

2. Again Christians are a diverse group from former atheists to reverts. From PhD's to Carpenters. No adult blindly practices anything, Adults come and go from Christianity all the time.

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Then shouldn’t hell, heaven and ‘limbo’ all be called limbo - because we don’t know.. Personally however I find it impossible to believe in something which has absolutely zero evidence.

Christians believe heaven and hell exists, because Christ believes they exist and often spoke of them. There's no speculation. In contrast Limbo was never a Catholic doctrine and is not a place.

As for never believing in something that has no evidence, what type of evidence would convince you and why ?

I also happen to believe that alien life exists somewhere in vastness of our universe as it probably has the conditions necessary to sustain life not just on earth but elsewhere, yet to date, zero evidence has been found of any alien life - does that mean no one should believe there is alien life out there and that NASA has wasted billions and is doing so seeking any evidence for alien life ?

iamtony

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

Before I respond to your questions, please note I am a resolute atheist. No belief in any kind of life after this and the notion of hell has always struck me as absurd, the same as the description of heaven being an eternity of worshipping and praising God to be one I'd happily avoid

1) That all works well in theory I guess, but we don't all get a moment of reflection to repent for our sins before we die. Could be a sudden heart attack, or car crash etc.

2) You're assuming all practicing religious person is only practicing because it's the environment they were raised in. There are many many converts, or people half ass raised in a faith who did their own soul searching and then committed themselves to a belief system.

As an atheist I guess I'm not really asking you, not being smart but I'm just trying to get into the heads of believers.
In response to number 1) what God would be so cruel to exclude you from heaven for not worshipping him of you were just about to start worshipping him before he decided to take you, or give you Satan.
2)converts probably account for 0.0000000001 percent of members of religions.whatever about having a belief system but thinking the creator of the world would want everyone to go worship him every Sunday since the year zero. So for the coupe of million years before that did every just go to hell then?

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well firstly we are not a "your lot", Christians are a diverse group of people like anyone else.



1. Unless it's a genuine change of heart (which can happen), I don't think trying the first stunt is going to fool God. Also why would/should a genuinely believing person not try to practice what they believe in, why would they wait until their deathbed to practice what they believe ?

2. Again Christians are a diverse group from former atheists to reverts. From PhD's to Carpenters. No adult blindly practices anything, Adults come and go from Christianity all the time.



Christians believe heaven and hell exists, because Christ believes they exist and often spoke of them. There's no speculation. In contrast Limbo was never a Catholic doctrine and is not a place.

You just literally dodged my second question. Do you think if you were born Muslim you would of seen the light and became a Christian?

VW 1

My take on it, as someone who is undecided but more likely an atheist, and definitely anti - church, is that nobody has come back to speak of heaven or hell.

To me the bible sets out, by using a narrative, archetypal stories and passages that can be reduced down to a basic set of principals and morals which one can use as a guide to live ones life by.

These basic principles are those which, at their most pure, all people should strive to follow.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

You just literally dodged my second question. Do you think if you were born Muslim you would of seen the light and became a Christian?

I haven't dodged anything so please be truthful.

I left the Church many years ago and believe in nothing. Only after studying many religions for myself, did I return to Christianity.

Also there are quite a few former atheists on this forum that are now Christians, so that also nullifies your claim, as do the conversions from other religions to Christianity.

iamtony

VW 1 wrote: »

My take on it, as someone who is undecided but more likely an atheist, and definitely anti - church, is that nobody has come back to speak of heaven or hell.

To me the bible sets out, by using a narrative, archetypal stories and passages that can be reduced down to a basic set of principals and morals which one can use as a guide to live ones life by.

These basic principles are those which, at their most pure, all people should strive to follow.

Yep. Be a good person. No need to follow false gods to get into the afterlife if there is one. No god could make such rules of he would be as evil as the people committing the crimes.

Bob_Marley

VW 1 wrote: »

My take on it, as someone who is undecided but more likely an atheist, and definitely anti - church, is that nobody has come back to speak of heaven or hell.

To me the bible sets out, by using a narrative, archetypal stories and passages that can be reduced down to a basic set of principals and morals which one can use as a guide to live ones life by.

These basic principles are those which, at their most pure, all people should strive to follow.

Well if you rule out near death experiences, then no one has come back to tell if heaven or hell exits or not, but that does not mean they do or do not exist.

As for morality it's totally subjective, not objective. The Nazi's and Stalinists for example, considered what they did perfectly moral, justifiable and rational.
What may be moral to one person may not be moral to another, so you cannot claim that everyone is going to come up with what you consider moral.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I haven't dodged anything so please be truthful.

I left the Church many years ago and believe in nothing. Only after studying many religions for myself, did I return to Christianity.

Also there are quite a few former atheists on this forum that are now Christians, so that also nullifies your claim, as do the conversions from other religions to Christianity.

I couldn't be more truthful, sorry if I came across that way but can you directly answer my question please. If you were born in a Muslim, or Jewish or whatever family you wouldn't believe in what was thought to you from an early age? I know people convert. Did you out of interest?

Johnnyhpipe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well firstly we are not a "your lot", Christians are a diverse group of people like anyone else.



1. Unless it's a genuine change of heart (which can happen), I don't think trying the first stunt is going to fool God. Also why would/should a genuinely believing person not try to practice what they believe in, why would they wait until their deathbed to practice what they believe ?

2. Again Christians are a diverse group from former atheists to reverts. From PhD's to Carpenters. No adult blindly practices anything, Adults come and go from Christianity all the time.



Christians believe heaven and hell exists, because Christ believes they exist and often spoke of them. There's no speculation. In contrast Limbo was never a Catholic doctrine and is not a place.

As for never believing in something that has no evidence, what type of evidence would convince you and why ?

I also happen to believe that alien life exists somewhere in vastness of our universe as it probably has the conditions necessary to sustain life not just on earth but elsewhere, yet to date, zero evidence has been found of any alien life - does that mean no one should believe there is alien life out there and that NASA has wasted billions and is doing so seeking any evidence for alien life ?

Surely the suggestion that Christ said anything at all is speculative.

As for alien life, I don’t know at this stage. But if you were to ask me after another 2000 years of space exploration, if we’ve found nothing at all, not even a shred of evidence or anything even close to it by then, I would probably conclude that alien life is unlikely.

iamtony

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Surely the suggestion that Christ said anything at all is speculative.

As for alien life, I don’t know at this stage. But if you were to ask me after another 2000 years of space exploration, if we’ve found nothing at all, not even a shred of evidence or anything even close to it by then, I would probably conclude that alien life is unlikely.

The chances we are the only planet in the universe with life are zero. Its not even questionable. There is life out their. Finding if is another matter. Any rational human being would be very nieve to be able to ignore that fact.

Johnnyhpipe

iamtony wrote: »

The chances we are the only planet in the universe with life are zero. Its not even questionable. There is life out their. Finding if is another matter. Any rational human being would be very nieve to be able to ignore that fact.

I agree completely. I’m comparing belief vs evidence vs time..

Bob_Marley

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Surely the suggestion that Christ said anything at all is speculative.

Well all credible professional historians agree on two things, Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified by the Romans in first century Judea.

The accounts of what Jesus said are contained in the new testament. Of course you are free to believe that Jesus was mad / bad / lying, or his followers who wrote the new testament were mad / bad / lying, and Christians are free to believe Jesus and his followers were telling the truth.

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

As for alien life, I don’t know at this stage. But if you were to ask me after another 2000 years of space exploration, if we’ve found nothing at all, not even a shred of evidence or anything even close to it by then, I would probably conclude that alien life is unlikely.

Well given the utter vastness and age of the universe, and the extreme short time span that humans have existed compared to the age of the universe, that is very likely indeed. It still would not be evidence that alien life does not exist.

Johnnyhpipe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well all credible professional historians agree on two things, Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified by the Romans in the first century.

The accounts of what Jesus said are contained in the new testament. Of course you are free to believe that Jesus was mad / bad / lying, or his followers who wrote the new testament were mad / bad / lying, and Christians are free to believe Jesus and his followers were telling the truth.



Well given the utter vastness and age of the universe, and the extreme short time span that humans have existed compared to the age of the universe, that is very likely indeed. It still would not be evidence that alien life does not exist.

Agreed

kumate_champ07

the idea of a hell where satan punishes those who are evil seems silly, it would make more sense for satan to welcome all the sinners who did his work for him. unless satan is being tortured in heaven too, but who would be torturing him? or is satan experiencing extreme pleasure in hell by having an endless supply of victims in which he can do as he pleases to them?

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

I couldn't be more truthful, sorry if I came across that way but can you directly answer my question please. If you were born in a Muslim, or Jewish or whatever family you wouldn't believe in what was thought to you from an early age? I know people convert. Did you out of interest?

I've already answered it twice now, I left my birth religion and believed in nothing, as do many people, so that rules out your claim that all adults who are brought up in certain faith are just 'blind' followers of that religion.

Years later, as I came to release there was more to life than mere physicality, I explored all religions in great detail, including Islam, but I found nothing and no one comparable to Jesus Christ.