So does hell exist or what

kumate_champ07

where was god and satan 5,000,000 years before Jesus was born? did heaven and hell exist back then? what happened to humans when they died? if the concept of sin didnt exist, where are all their souls now?

iamtony

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

the idea of a hell where satan punishes those who are evil seems silly, it would make more sense for satan to welcome all the sinners who did his work for him. unless satan is being tortured in heaven too, but who would be torturing him? or is satan experiencing extreme pleasure in hell by having an endless supply of victims in which he can do as he pleases to them?

Sure isn't he a fallen angle himself. He must be doing God's work in punishing those of us non believers by burning us until the end of time just as an all forgiving God would want of us mear mortals he created for making mistakes he already knew we were going to do. Get a grip.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already answered it twice now, I left my birth religion and believed in nothing, as do many people, so that rules out your claim that all adults who are brought up in certain faith are just 'blind' followers of that religion.

Years later, as I came to release there was more to life than mere physicality, I explored all religions in great detail, including Islam, but I found nothing and no one comparable to Jesus Christ.

I understand that with age we start realise how none of it makes sense and the thoughts of a mystical afterlife are the only way some can conprehend existence but organised religion isnt the answer. Be a good person if there's a higher being that takes applications to the happy afrerlife you'll get on by being a good human. Not by going to a church build by a greedy organisation which like all other religious groups take your money every síngle time you need there services.

kumate_champ07

I feel like original sin was created so that people would have to pay their way into heaven, it just seems too cruel for a soul to enter this realm as an entity guilty of a crime. it seems more of a cruel crime for it to enter this world in the first place, perhaps this is hell.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Sure isn't he a fallen angle himself. He must be doing God's work in punishing those of us non believers by burning us until the end of time just as an all forgiving God would want of us mear mortals he created for making mistakes he already knew we were going to do. Get a grip.

Why are you making up what Christians actually believe ? Hell from a Christian point of view is the choice of those who voluntarily reject God and choose eternal separation from God and all that is good for eternity.

iamtony wrote: »

I understand that with age we start realise how none of it makes sense and the thoughts of a mystical afterlife are the only way some can conprehend existence but organised religion isnt the answer. Be a good person if there's a higher being that takes applications to the happy afrerlife you'll get on by being a good human. Not by going to a church build by a greedy organisation which like all other religious groups take your money every síngle time you need there services.

Again, you're making false assumptions/claims about what Christians actually believe and why they believe it, of course you are free to do so, but you're only kidding yourself.

iamtony

Can any Christian answer why would God want us to worship him? What is that all about? Does he get an ego boost from the people he created worshipping him? What about the other species he created on this planet that don't have to go to church like the dogs and the whales and the birds and other innocent creatures that don't happen to speak English. Do they automatically go to hell?

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why are you making up what Christians actually believe ? Hell from a Christian point of view is the choice of those who voluntarily reject God and choose eternal separation from God and all that is good for eternity.

I dont think its exclusively those who reject god that end up in hell, some people are never introduced to Christianity, and they go to hell. unbaptized children who die dont go to heaven, or has that changed recently, and if it has changed will all the babies who died before it changed be allowed enter heaven now?

*edited , I didnt make my point clear, im tired

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I dont think that is true, some people are never introduced to Christianity, and they go to hell. unbaptized children who die dont go to heaven, or has that changed recently, and if it has changed will all the babies who died before it changed be allowed enter heaven now?

What are you basing these claims on ? Proper original source please, and not some badly written journalism / false info.
I take it you are also referring to term 'Limbo', which was never a Catholic doctrine, so nothing has changed.

kumate_champ07

iamtony wrote: »

Can any Christian answer why would God want us to worship him? What is that all about? Does he get an ego boost from the people he created worshipping him? What about the other species he created on this planet that don't have to go to church like the dogs and the whales and the birds and other innocent creatures that don't happen to speak English. Do they automatically go to hell?

I think your tone of questioning might be too abrasive, I understand where youre coming from but its that kind of attitude that gets any type of discussion shut down

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why are you making up what Christians actually believe ? Hell from a Christian point of view is the choice of those who voluntarily reject God and choose eternal separation from God and all that is good for eternity.



Again, you're making false assumptions/claims about what Christians actually believe and why they believe it, of course you are free to do so, but you're only kidding yourself.

So let me get this straight. God created us humans, to be who we are on this planet. But if we reject him we go to hell? Why would he create humans who reject him just so he could send them to hell? Are we bad people because we dont believe in a god? He made us this way did he not? I Consider myself a really really good human being. I do a lot of good things but it doesn't matter if my mear mortal brain god created can't follow Christianity.

kumate_champ07

iamtony wrote: »

So let me get this straight. God created us humans, to be who we are on this planet. But if we reject him we go to hell? Why would he create humans who reject him just so he could send them to hell? Are we bad people because we dont believe in a god? He made us this way did he not? I Consider myself a really really good human being. I do a lot of good things but it doesn't matter if my mear mortal brain god created can't follow Christianity.

I personally believe that if Jesus existed and there is heaven, he can not morally keep you out of there

iamtony

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I think your tone of questioning might be too abrasive, I understand where youre coming from but its that kind of attitude that gets any type of discussion shut down

Sadly that is true. If people dont like what they hear they shut you down if they can. All I have to say before it happens is get religion out of schools and hospitals and be pro choice and do t try Control others. If there's a god he won't send you to a hell for using the brain he created.

iamtony

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I personally believe that if Jesus existed and there is heaven, he can not morally keep you out of there

Exactly and thus we have no need for churches except to make money and power.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

So let me get this straight. God created us humans, to be who we are on this planet. But if we reject him we go to hell?

Yes that's correct. Why would anyone who hates God, good and love, want to spend eternity with him ?

iamtony wrote: »

Why would he create humans who reject him just so he could send them to hell?

Well they send themselves to hell and choose it, they hardly want to spend eternity with a God they hate. God wants everyone to go to heaven, but like any loving parent he also gives us free will to make our own choices.

iamtony wrote: »

Are we bad people because we dont believe in a god?

No, I've no issue whatsoever with anyone who just simply genuinely does not / cannot believe.

iamtony wrote: »

I Consider myself a really really good human being. I do a lot of good things but it doesn't matter if my mear mortal brain god created can't follow Christianity.

I only take issue with false claims about Christians or Christianity. So perhaps as part of being a really really good human it might be an idea not to do that.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Exactly and thus we have no need for churches except to make money and power.

You're free to do as you like, genuine Christians are also free to come together in their Churches or anywhere else they choose, and celebrate Christianity and none of that has to do with money or power, so as a really really good human being, please don't make the false claim that the only need Christians have for Churches is money or power.

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I personally believe that if Jesus existed and there is heaven, he can not morally keep you out of there

Who claims he does keep really really good human beings out ?

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Yes that's correct. Why would anyone who hates God, good and love, want to spend eternity with him ?



Well they send themselves to hell and choose it, they hardly want to spend eternity with a God they hate. God wants everyone to go to heaven, but like any loving parent he also gives us free will to make our own choices.



No, I've no issue whatsoever with anyone who just simply genuinely does not / cannot believe.



I only take issue with false claims about Christians or Christianity. So perhaps as part of being a really really good human it might be an idea not to do that.

I can't do that multiple quoting thing you just did but literally nothing you just said makes any sense what so ever. For example. If someone hates God. It's because God created him and the world he lives in and controlles every síngle thing he does or says so if he hates God thats God's will there for God can't really hate him because he made him that way and will want him in heaven

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Who claims he does keep really really good human beings out ?

im pretty sure thats basic common knowledge in the bible

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Who claims he does keep really really good human beings out ?

For not worshipping him obviously. Otherwise why all the churches.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

I can't do that multiple quoting thing you just did but literally nothing you just said makes any sense what so ever. For example. If someone hates God. It's because God created him and the world he lives in and controlles every síngle thing he does or says so if he hates God thats God's will there for God can't really hate him because he made him that way and will want him in heaven

How does God control every thing you do and say ? You are free to do, say and choose whatever you want.

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

im pretty sure thats basic common knowledge in the bible

iamtony wrote: »

For not worshipping him obviously. Otherwise why all the churches.

It is ? which Christian Church claims this and where ?- Proper sources please.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

You're free to do as you like, genuine Christians are also free to come together in their Churches or anywhere else they choose, and celebrate Christianity and none of that has to do with money or power, so as a really really good human being, please don't make the false claim that the only need Christians have for Churches is money or power.

Can you be buried in sacred ground if you aren't christened these days? A really really innocent baby must be christened at a cost before they can have a Christian burial do they not?

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

How does God control every thing you do and say ? You are free to do, say and choose whatever you want.

is a baby born with no legs free to do anything it chooses? why was it born with no legs in the first place?

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

How does God control every thing you do and say ? You are free to do, say and choose whatever you want.

Oh really I thought you believed God has chosen out path in life if not I apologise on that one. Anyway God makes us but then sends us on our way and if we dont adhere to his strict rules on life we go to hell. OK.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Can you be buried in sacred ground if you aren't christened these days? A really really innocent baby must be christened at a cost before they can have a Christian burial do they not?

Do you mean can you be buried in a Catholic owned church graveyard for Catholics if you are not a Catholic, or can you be buried in a Protestant owned church graveyard for Protestants ? Not that I know of, but I'm sure some people have. Other than that people who are buried in municipal / county council owned public graveyards.

iamtony

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

is a baby born with no legs free to do anything it chooses? why was it born with no legs in the first place?

That a different conversation but I would argue why would God allow a baby to by born into such a dire situation. Surely at this stage is God's existence we would all he perfect specimens. Can they almighty not choose for us to be perfect at this stage and make life easier for the rest of his souls or is the whole universe just a big test for the afterlife?

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

It is ? which Christian Church claims this and where ?- Proper sources please.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17-18)

iamtony

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17-18)

Oh your good ha!

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Oh really I thought you believed God has chosen out path in life if not I apologise on that one. Anyway God makes us but then sends us on our way and if we dont adhere to his strict rules on life we go to hell. OK.

What strict rules ? Love one another, and love God (if you can believe in him)

kumate_champ07

and is it not true that you can commit many evil acts in a lifetime but if you accept Jesus as your savior in the final moments before your death you will enter his kingdom of heaven?

For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:10)

that doesnt seem fair

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17-18)

Scripture, contains an entire library (bible) of books, not single out of context quotes.

e.g. Pslam 14.1 "There is no God"

What I asked you to provide is what Church teaches what you claim Christianity teaches and support it with an authentic original link to their teaching.

Ubbquittious

Hell temporarily closed for refurbishment works.

retired00

hell is real
most marxists will go there
unless they change their ways

beefburrito

Well I'm agnostic, some religious people believe they'll go to heaven, others somewhere else.

You'll get atheists slagging them off, bigging themselves up, giving it the "you're all delusional effort"

The thing is if heaven is real, religion 1 atheists 0 if it's not real it's a draw.

Because there will be nothingness.

People live away bring up their family's,do good in life, look after their friend's.
Respect others, forgiveness is a big thing in Christianity, something which isn't so forthcoming in new age spirituality.

If one is a pure practising Christian and don't harm anyone non confrontational or judgemental they're already in heaven.
Because cognitively they're emotionally balanced, they accept life on life's term's
They don't even think about who's going to burn in hell or worry about other people's lifestyles.

I'd love to live in eternity, it sounds like fun.
I love life, ive had an adventurous life and I'm definitely a sinner.
But the options there for me to decide to become a Christian but I'm not ready or certain there's an afterlife.
So I couldn't fake it to make it.

Nature never forgives so they say.

If a wave sweeps you off the rocks, anothers on the way to smash you back in again.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

What strict rules ? Love one another, and love God (if you can believe in him)

Your mad my friend. God came with a message of love through jesus if that's true. If he loves each and every one of his children then he would not send any of them to hell. Nobody has to worship him or anything else like it. I'm sorry hit its all mumbo jumbo. I'm not going to try convince you all night because no matter what I say your going to ignore but hopefully more rational human being who are looking for answers stumble upon this thread. Good night and God Bless.

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Scripture, contains an entire library (bible) of books, not single out of context quotes.

e.g. Pslam 14.1 "There is no God"

What I asked you to provide is what Church teaches what you claim Christianity teaches and support it with an authentic original link to their teaching.

Pslam 14.1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

??

uck51js9zml2yt

iamtony wrote: »

As an atheist I guess I'm not really asking you, not being smart but I'm just trying to get into the heads of believers.
In response to number 1) what God would be so cruel to exclude you from heaven for not worshipping him of you were just about to start worshipping him before he decided to take you, or give you Satan.
2)converts probably account for 0.0000000001 percent of members of religions.whatever about having a belief system but thinking the creator of the world would want everyone to go worship him every Sunday since the year zero. So for the coupe of million years before that did every just go to hell then?

Firstly, He's not excluding people from heaven for not worshipping Him. People exclude themselves by not repenting and believing in the One who died to save them. Hell was created for Satan and his angels, not for mankind. But our rebellion against God aligns us with Satan's rebellion with the same fate..

All true Christians are converts. Jesus referred to it as being Born Again. Transferring from darkness to light, from one kingdom to another.
I was part of a religion. I believed in Christ and was converted to Him. It literally means a change of mind.

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

and is it not true that you can commit many evil acts in a lifetime but if you accept Jesus as your savior in the final moments before your death you will enter his kingdom of heaven?

For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:10)

that doesnt seem fair

Yes, but it would have to be an absolutely genuine change of heart, and I don't think God would be fooled by anything else.

As for not being fair, if God didn't give everyone every last possible chance, you'd probably also be the first to claim that wasn't fair either. So which is it ?

redrums

To be Honest I think its more believable that Jesus was an alien , Than Heaven and hell actual exist .

uck51js9zml2yt

redrums wrote: »

To be Honest I think its more believable that Jesus was an alien , Than Heaven and hell actual exist .

Believable by whom?

kumate_champ07

redrums wrote: »

To be Honest I think its more believable that Jesus was an alien , Than Heaven and hell actual exist .

theres a theory that he used psychedelics.

but according to the bible isnt he technically an alien anyway?

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Yes, but it would have to be an absolutely genuine change of heart, and I don't think God would be fooled by anything else.

As for not being fair, if God didn't give everyone every last possible chance, you'd probably also be the first to claim that wasn't fair either. So which is it ?

so you're not gonna address your own use of out of context misquotes, no?

wouldnt the fear of death/going to hell be enough motivation for genuine regret of ones past sins?

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Your mad my friend. God came with a message of love through jesus if that's true. If he loves each and every one of his children then he would not send any of them to hell. Nobody has to worship him or anything else like it. I'm sorry hit its all mumbo jumbo. I'm not going to try convince you all night because no matter what I say your going to ignore but hopefully more rational human being who are looking for answers stumble upon this thread. Good night and God Bless.

I've already told you, God sends no one to hell, they choose it. I've spoken to many anti-theists (as opposed to atheists) who have been happy to boast that if God exists they are going to spit in his face and demand they don't go to heaven as they could not stand him. I'm perfectly open to being convinced Christianity and Theism is false, I'll follow the truth to the end of time wherever it leads, but all I've seen so far are false and ignorant claims about Christians, Christianity, and what they believe.

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Pslam 14.1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

??

Exactly, anyone can selectively and singularly quote scripture out of context to say anything they wish. That was the point. There's over three quarters of a million words in the books that make up the bible library.

Now, I'll ask you for the third time, what Church teaches what you claim Christianity teaches about who goes to hell, and support it with an authentic original link to their teaching.

iamtony

Faith Mushy Smallpox wrote: »

Firstly, He's not excluding people from heaven for not worshipping Him. People exclude themselves by not repenting and believing in the One who died to save them. Hell was created for Satan and his angels, not for mankind. But our rebellion against God aligns us with Satan's rebellion with the same fate..

All true Christians are converts. Jesus referred to it as being Born Again. Transferring from darkness to light, from one kingdom to another.
I was part of a religion. I believed in Christ and was converted to Him. It literally means a change of mind.

OK so your agreeing churches are rediculous with your first point. No point in them..
Second point. In excluding myself from the afterlife my creator made for me with are

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Exactly, anyone can selectively and singularly quote scripture out to say anything they wish. There's over three quarters of a million words in the books that make up the bible library.

Now, I'll ask you for the third time, what Church teaches what you claim Christianity teaches about who goes to hell, and support it with an authentic original link to their teaching.

Im gonna try not to be rude here. I dont believe your initial response that I quoted was intended to prove the point you just attempted to make here. you basically moved the goalposts


I dont appreciate this: "Now, I'll ask you for the third time,"
I already answered the question but your are attempting to make it appear as if I have dodged your question multiple times. I stand by my first reply.

perhaps Im not seeing something and it will become clearer later. or perhaps that is the case for you. I am prepared for either, are you?

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Im gonna try not to be rude here. I dont believe your initial response that I quoted was intended to prove the point you just attempted to make here. you basically moved the goalposts


I dont appreciate this: "Now, I'll ask you for the third time,"
I already answered the question but your are attempting to make it appear as if I have dodged your question multiple times. I stand by my first reply.

perhaps Im not seeing something and it will become clearer later. or perhaps that is the case for you. I am prepared for either, are you?

I'll ask it again, What Christian church teaches that "really really good people" who genuinely thought God did not exist are kept out of heaven ?

iamtony

iamtony wrote: »

OK so your agreeing churches are rediculous with your first point. No point in them..
Second point. In excluding myself from the afterlife my creator made for me with are

Sorry my chinese food arrived whilst I was typing and I dont even know what I was getting at in this post. I've had a few beers also.
So in conclusion I'm indulging in meat and alcohol on good Friday so should I go to hell even if I gave money to the homeless man outside the Aib while I put money in to cover my concern worldwide direct debit or should we just abolish the Catholic Church and all its problems and we can all believe whatever the hell(excuse the pun) we choose.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Sorry my chinese food arrived whilst I was typing and I dont even know what I was getting at in this post. I've had a few beers also.
So in conclusion I'm indulging in meat and alcohol on good Friday so should I go to hell even if I gave money to the homeless man outside the Aib while I put money in to cover my concern worldwide direct debit or should we just abolish the Catholic Church and all its problems and we can all believe whatever the hell(excuse the pun) we choose.

But you already believe whatever you choose, we all do.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I'll ask it again, What Christian church teaches that "really really good people" who genuinely thought God did not exist are kept out of heaven ?

Sorry to butt in but for a Christian church to teach you something you actually have to be a member in the first place which usually requires a paid membership starting at christenings so maybe he doesn't know, or care.
We all know what your asking is crap and the church requires membership to get buried on sacred ground and admittance to heaven. Do I have proof from the bible about what I'm saying, no, will I get it? No. But I know the general story goes very much like I've set it out.