So does hell exist or what

iamtony · 31-03-2018 12:36am

Bob_Marley wrote: »

But you already believe whatever you choose, we all do.

Yes true but my beliefs are sane. You need to bang your head off a wall a few times. Sorry but it's true. Your believing in nonsense rubbish made up to creat wealth for the Vatican and thats the end of it. Sorry mod if I'm breaking the rules but I just can't get my head around people who blindly believe such nonsense over other nonsense they can say is wrong from the other side of the world. God wouldn't require special behaviour to get into heaven simple as that. Goodnight folks.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 12:36am

iamtony wrote: »

Sorry to butt in but for a Christian church to teach you something you actually have to be a member in the first place which usually requires a paid membership starting at christenings so maybe he doesn't know, or care.
We all know what your asking is crap and the church requires membership to get buried on sacred ground and admittance to heaven. Do I have proof from the bible about what I'm saying, no, will I get it? No. But I know the general story goes very much like I've set it out.

You're the one's (the really really good human being) making false claims about Christians, Christianity, and what Christian believe, and yet the doctrines of all mainstream Christian Churches are fully available online.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 12:38am

iamtony wrote: »

Yes true but my beliefs are sane. You need to bang your head off a wall a few times. Sorry but it's true. Your believing in nonsense rubbish made up to creat wealth for the Vatican and thats the end of it. Sorry mod if I'm breaking the rules but I just can't get my head around people who blindly believe such nonsense over other nonsense they can say is wrong from the other side of the world. God wouldn't require special behaviour to get into heaven simple as that. Goodnight folks.

Maybe instead of attacking posters, calling them names and making false accusations about them, you could try actually talking about the points instead ?

iamtony · 31-03-2018 12:41am

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Maybe instead of attacking posters, calling them names and making false accusations about them, you could try actually talking about the points instead ?

The points are invalid and a book written 2000 years ago cannot back up your claims. In fact as has been shown its more likely to be used against you. Peace to you my friend, I'm sorry I got sucked in here in the first place but I'm out.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 12:42am

iamtony wrote: »

The points are invalid and a book written 2000 years ago cannot back up your claims. In fact as has been shown its more likely to be used against you. Peace to you my friend, I'm sorry I got sucked in here in the first place but I'm out.

Whenever you present an accurate claim about Christianity, we'll be quite happy to deal with it.

iamtony · 31-03-2018 12:47am

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Whenever you present an accurate claim about Christianity, we'll be quite happy to deal with it.

OK you win. I give up.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 12:49am

iamtony wrote: »

OK you win. I give up.

I'm not trying to win anything.

4068ac1elhodqr · 31-03-2018 2:42am

redrums wrote: »

To be Honest I think its more believable that Jesus was an alien , Than Heaven and hell actual exist .

Perhaps both, which could explain all the voices/beams of light from the sky.

Much of the paintings date from the renaissance, but plenty of examples of much earlier cave art featuring space folks are available.

Delirium · 31-03-2018 8:37am

iamtony wrote: »

Yes true but my beliefs are sane. You need to bang your head off a wall a few times. Sorry but it's true. Your believing in nonsense rubbish made up to creat wealth for the Vatican and thats the end of it. Sorry mod if I'm breaking the rules but I just can't get my head around people who blindly believe such nonsense over other nonsense they can say is wrong from the other side of the world. God wouldn't require special behaviour to get into heaven simple as that. Goodnight folks.

MOD NOTE

Infracted for ignoring previous warning about referring to beliefs as 'nonsense'.

Please raise your posting standard to avoid further moderation.

Thanks for your attention.

iamtony · 31-03-2018 10:16am

Delirium wrote: »

MOD NOTE

Infracted for ignoring previous warning about referring to beliefs as 'nonsense'.

Please raise your posting standard to avoid further moderation.

Thanks for your attention.

Apologies folks. A little too much sauce last night. I normally respect other people's beliefs and live and let live.

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 12:45pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I'll ask it again, What Christian church teaches that "really really good people" who genuinely thought God did not exist are kept out of heaven ?

That's a very hostile way to began your response. You accused me of using words out of context, when in fact I used the full quote rather than taking one sentence. You are the one who took one sentence from a longer quote, and the first part that you left out gave it a completely different meaning

Are you consciously choosing to be intellectually dishonest? what is your interpretation of the Christian Doctrine I provided? What is the correct context for its use?

pauldla · 31-03-2018 1:10pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

That's a very hostile way to began your response. You accused me of using words out of context, when in fact I used the full quote rather than taking one sentence. You are the one who took one sentence from a longer quote, and the first part that you left out gave it a completely different meaning

Are you consciously choosing to be intellectually dishonest? what is your interpretation of the Christian Doctrine I provided? What is the correct context for its use?

Indeed, if I may interject, it would be much more productive for the poster in question to say why they consider that quote to be given out of context. John Chapter 3 is considered a neat summary of core Christian beliefs as far as I know (Christ teaching Nicodemus, iirc).

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 1:16pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

That's a very hostile way to began your response. You accused me of using words out of context, when in fact I used the full quote rather than taking one sentence. You are the one who took one sentence from a longer quote, and the first part that you left out gave it a completely different meaning

Are you consciously choosing to be intellectually dishonest? what is your interpretation of the Christian Doctrine I provided? What is the correct context for its use?

You made the claim about Christianity and what Christians believe, you are the one making the claims about Christians and what they believe, I'm asking you to back it up by showing any mainstream Christian denomination believes what you claim Christians actually believe.

The doctrines of all the mainstream Christian denominations are all available on line. You haven't provided a single Christian doctrine about what Christians actually believe, instead you lifted a one line quote out of context (which anyone can do to quote anything) and then claimed that's Christian doctrine.

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 1:44pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

You made the claim about Christianity and what Christians believe, you are the one making the claims about Christians and what they believe, I'm asking you to back it up by showing any mainstream Christian denomination believes what you claim Christians actually believe.

Their doctrines are all available on line. You haven't provided a single Christian doctrine about what Christians actually believe, instead you lifted a one line quote out of context (which anyone can do to quote anything) and then claimed that's Christian doctrine.

what is the correct context? How do I learn if you dont tell me the reason why that text would be included in the bible, does it mean something completely different?

what is your motivation here?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 1:55pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what is the correct context? How do I learn if you dont tell me the reason why that text would be included in the bible, does it mean something completely different?

what is your motivation here?

I already explained, the bible contains over 750,000 words, taking a line out of context and then claiming that is complete Christian doctrine on a subject and what Christians entirely believe and understand about a subject, as you did, isn't accurate.

My motivation was simply asking you to back up your claims that you made about Christianity, and your claims that you made about Christians and what Christians believe.

What is your motivation for making inaccurate claims about Christians, Christianity, and what Christians believe ?

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 2:12pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I already explained, the bible contains over 750,000 words, taking a line out of context and then claiming that is complete Christian doctrine on a subject and what Christians believe, as you did, isn't accurate.

My motivation was simply asking you to back up your claims that you made about Christianity, and your claims that you made about Christians and what Christians believe.

What is your motivation for making such claims about Christians, Christianity, and what Christians believe ?

Instead of sharing knowledge and correcting me, you just want to win an argument. That sounds very egotistical and not very Christian

I provided evidence that supports my understanding of Christian beliefs, my motivation is based on acquiring knowledge, you havent been very helpful in that regard. Are you not interested in teaching others about your faith?

what does this mean?

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17-18)

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-03-2018 2:19pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Instead of sharing knowledge and correcting me, you just want to win an argument. That sounds very egotistical and not very Christian

I provided evidence that supports my understanding of Christian beliefs, my motivation is based on acquiring knowledge, you havent been very helpful in that regard. Are you not interested in teaching others about your faith?

what does this mean?

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17-18)

If you just want knowledge, try any "theological" book. It will suffice.

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 2:26pm

Faith Mushy Smallpox wrote: »

If you just want knowledge, try any "theological" book. It will suffice.

is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 2:27pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Instead of sharing knowledge and correcting me, you just want to win an argument. That sounds very egotistical and not very Christian

Rather than attempting ad homienm argument about me instead of the subject, perhaps you could deal with the actual points ?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I provided evidence that supports my understanding of Christian beliefs, my motivation is based on acquiring knowledge, you havent been very helpful in that regard. Are you not interested in teaching others about your faith?

But rather than asking Christians about Christians and what they actually believe, you instead were making false claims about Christianity and what Christians believe, so when you do, others are perfectly entitled to address your false claims, even if you don't like anyone doing so. Perhaps you've never had your claims about Christianity and Christians challenged before ? If you are going to make such claims on a Christianity forum, it is reasonable to expect they will be challenged. I can assure you, Christians are quite used to false claims being made about them on this forum.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what does this mean?

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17-18)

If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 2:36pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

are we seeing the same words??

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 2:38pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

Yet instead you came on making false claims about Christianity and what Christians believe, which you then failed to back up when asked to ?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 2:40pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

are we seeing the same words??

I don't know what you're seeing that's why I asked :

If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 2:41pm

this is the interpretation Im seeing:

God sent Jesus to Earth not primarily as a punisher, but as a redeemer. Those who believe in him as their savior shall be rewarded, those who dont believe shall be punished.

peaceboi · 31-03-2018 2:42pm

St.Faustina's Vision of Hell

"I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence...the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary of St. Faustina, paragraph 741)

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-03-2018 2:45pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

The Greeks came seeking wisdom, the Jews sought truth.
They were both baying for His blood in the end.

pauldla · 31-03-2018 2:45pm

Can a really really good person get into heaven if they don't believe in Jesus?

Well, it would seem the answer depends.

According to Catholic.com, the answer is a 'no', as they are culpable. A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission if they were really really good. Atheists, however, will not be received into the beatific vision and will presumably become mods on boards.ie instead (even if they are really really good).

Focus on the Family is a conservative Christian evangelical group based in the US, and they ask a similar question on their website. Again, the answer seems to be 'no'. One can read their article here.

And of course there is the Gospel verse quoted above, which also seems to say that nope, you can't get into Heaven except through the Lord (this would presumably include really really good people).

Is there a case to be made for presenting examples of Christian doctrines that teach one can enter Heaven if one is really really good but not a believer?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 2:45pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

this is the interpretation Im seeing:

God sent Jesus to Earth not primarily as a punisher, but as a redeemer. Those who believe in him as their savior shall be rewarded, those who dont believe shall be punished.

So if he was standing in front of you, would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe in him and why / why not ?

kumate_champ07 · 31-03-2018 2:49pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I don't know what you're seeing that's why I asked :

If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

Jesus on earth, or in heaven?

on earth I would need to evaluate if Im in the presence of a mentally ill person, or someone with real supernatural powers. Id expect him to have dark hair and dark skin, probably short in stature. if it was heaven Id need to know if it was a dream.

would I want to believe in him? I dont know, If I did believe in him Id have alot of difficult questions. I feel like the primary reason that most believe in him is that they are afraid of death & the unknown. it offers them a peacefulness, a way of removing existential anxiety from their minds

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 2:49pm

pauldla wrote: »

Can a really really good person get into heaven if they don't believe in Jesus?

Well, it would seem the answer depends.

According to Catholic.com, the answer is a 'no', as they are culpable. A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission if they were really really good. Atheists, however, will not be received into the beatific vision and will presumably become mods on boards.ie instead (even if they are really really good).

Why did you leave out this bit from the link you posted ?

If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable.

peaceboi · 31-03-2018 2:49pm

Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

pauldla · 31-03-2018 2:51pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why did you leave out this bit from the link you posted ?

In my extremely short synopsis I mentioned culpability, did I not?

Are you ready to present your context for the verses mentioned above? I am keen to learn your perspective.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 2:56pm

pauldla wrote: »

In my extremely short synopsis I mentioned culpability, did I not?

Yet , you claimed the answer was not and they were culpable.

pauldla wrote: »

Are you ready to present your context for the verses mentioned above? I am keen to learn your perspective.

Well a Christian I believe in Christ that's my perspective regarding the verse quoted.

From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

peaceboi · 31-03-2018 2:59pm

John 20:29 ►
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 3:00pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Jesus on earth, or in heaven?

on earth I would need to evaluate if Im in the presence of a mentally ill person, or someone with real supernatural powers. Id expect him to have dark hair and dark skin, probably short in stature. if it was heaven Id need to know if it was a dream.

would I want to believe in him? I dont know, If I did believe in him Id have alot of difficult questions.

Fair enough.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I feel like the primary reason that most believe in him is that they are afraid of death & the unknown. it offers them a peacefulness, a way of removing existential anxiety from their minds

That's the problem with assumptions about what people believe and why. I'm not afraid of death at all, and if there's no life after death who's going to care ?

pauldla · 31-03-2018 3:00pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Yet , you claimed the answer was not and they were culpable.

If I may quote myself:

A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission.

I await your comments.

Well a Christian I believe in Christ that's my perspective regarding the verse quoted.

From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

You stated that the verse quoted was out of context. Please provide the correct context, from your perspective.

peaceboi · 31-03-2018 3:05pm

It's not my primary reason. I'm not afraid of death at all, and if there's no life after death who's going to care ?[/quote]

Matthew 10.28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Your eternity is at stake if not caring for the life after death!

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 3:15pm

pauldla wrote: »

If I may quote myself:

"A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission."

I await your comments.

Apart from ignorance of Christ, you also left out the bit that was also critical to the discussion . .

"If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable."

pauldla wrote: »

You stated that the verse quoted was out of context. Please provide the correct context, from your perspective.

Originally, the poster claimed to the effect that Christianity believes 'really really good' people who don't believe in God cannot ever go to heaven.

Even the link you posted make clear this is not true.

Perhaps you would answer the other questions you have been asked ?

If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

mosii · 31-03-2018 3:27pm

I often wondered ,what did the millions of poor Irish who lived and died horrible deaths, in the great famine 1845, do, to deserve such hardship, from a loving God.? Did many of these poor creatures go to Hell,? or delivered from HELL?.Did they have free will?when there existence and death, was probably predetermined by the fact they were born into a particular part of this planet,at a certain time in History.
And even today in many parts of the world, needless famines and suffering are taking place. I would concentrate on having enough food and water, and money, for my family before worrying about the existence of a hell.

pauldla · 31-03-2018 3:29pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Apart from ignorance of Christ, you also left out the bit that was also critical to the discussion . .

"If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable."

The ignorant not being culpable is exactly what I said, is it not?

, the poster claimed to the effect that Christianity believes 'really really good' people who don't believe in God cannot ever go to heaven.

Even the link you posted make clear this is not true.

Perhaps you would answer the other questions you have been asked ?

If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

Well, the links I gave (as you'd asked for links), make it clear that 'it depends', but overall it does seem that if you don't believe, you ain't getting in. That said, there is a wide range of Christian doctrines, as I'm sure you know. Are there churches that teach one can get into Heaven if one does not believe in god?

As you still have not given the correct context for the verses you challenged, I am under no obligation to entertain further distracting hypotheticals until you have provided that context.

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-03-2018 3:29pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

The Greeks came seeking wisdom, the Jews sought truth.
They were both baying for His blood in the end.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 3:35pm

mosii wrote: »

I often wondered ,what did the millions of poor Irish who lived and died horrible deaths, in the great famine 1845, do, to deserve such hardship, from a loving God.? Did many of these poor creatures go to Hell,? or delivered from HELL?.Did they have free will?when there existence and death, was probably predetermined by the fact they were born into a particular part of this planet,at a certain time in History.
And even today in many parts of the world, needless famines and suffering are taking place. I would concentrate on having enough food and water, and money, for my family before worrying about the existence of a hell.

Nor did they deserve the penal laws, but despite the horrendous economic and social pressure not to remain Catholic and pass on the faith to successive generations they risked life and limb and everything to ensure they did. Famine and such laws are caused by the greed of men.

mosii · 31-03-2018 3:43pm

And why were they allowed to suffer and die ,by a loving God?Belief or no Belief,what was the point to their horrible existence?

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 3:46pm

mosii wrote: »

And why were they allowed to suffer and die ,by a loving God?Belief or no Belief,what was the point to their horrible existence?

If someone choose to hurt others why do you think that is God's fault and no theirs ?

Why do you think people who are treated horribly by others have no point to their existence ?

mosii · 31-03-2018 3:50pm

I cant understand ,how a loving God ,allows these things to happen.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 3:52pm

pauldla wrote: »

The ignorant not being culpable is exactly what I said, is it not?

There was two instances of culpability, ignorance, and also inability. You left out one of them.

pauldla wrote: »

Well, the links I gave (as you'd asked for links), make it clear that 'it depends', but overall it does seem that if you don't believe, you ain't getting in.

Which contradicts the links you posted about culpability.

pauldla wrote: »

That said, there is a wide range of Christian doctrines, as I'm sure you know. Are there churches that teach one can get into Heaven if one does not believe in god?

You posted a link from one that does, based on the culpability factors.

pauldla wrote: »

As you still have not given the correct context for the verses you challenged, I am under no obligation to entertain further distracting hypotheticals until you have provided that context.

I've given the actual context as has your very own link, so

From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

peaceboi · 31-03-2018 3:53pm

mosii wrote: »

I often wondered ,what did the millions of poor Irish who lived and died horrible deaths, in the great famine 1845, do, to deserve such hardship, from a loving God.? Did many of these poor creatures go to Hell,? or delivered from HELL?.Did they have free will?when there existence and death, was probably predetermined by the fact they were born into a particular part of this planet,at a certain time in History.
And even today in many parts of the world, needless famines and suffering are taking place. I would concentrate on having enough food and water, and money, for my family before worrying about the existence of a hell.

I thought the famine was the result of the greed of the ruling British then ? & Not a loving God to blame. Only God in Heaven can know their hearts and judge them.

Bob_Marley · 31-03-2018 3:56pm

mosii wrote: »

I cant understand ,how a loving God ,allows these things to happen.

Because everyone has been given free will to do whatever they want.

Should God not allow such free will ?

demanufactured · 31-03-2018 4:05pm

Yes, it's also known as the bog.

peaceboi · 31-03-2018 4:10pm

mosii wrote: »

I cant understand ,how a loving God ,allows these things to happen.

"Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."
James 1: 16-17

pauldla · 31-03-2018 4:14pm

Bob_Marley wrote: »

There was two instances of culpability, ignorance, and also inability. You left out one of them.

Bob_Marley wrote:

Apart from ignorance of Christ, you also left out the bit that was also critical to the discussion . .

"If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable."

Then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and is not culpable. I rendered it as 'A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable' (#127). How have I misrepresented it?

Which contradicts the links you posted about culpability.

Catholic.com mentions culpability. Does the evangelical website mention it? It is a common Christian doctrine? Is it widely held in the same regard? I doubt it, but please feel free to share what you know.

You posted a link from one that does, based on the culpability factors.

So that's the only Church that teaches culpability? Are there others?

I've given the actual context as has your very own link, so

I don't see how my very own link has given the correct context for the verses of John 3 you disputed. If you have given your context, I cannot find it; could I ask you to direct me to the post, please? No need for a link, just the post number will do (I know how these things can be a hassle, especially on a mobile device).

From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

Would you want to believe him, and why ?

Well, I said I wouldn't address this until you'd provided your context, and I don't see that you have, but I'll engage your question. In what context am I standing in front of Him?

So does hell exist or what

Comments