Should Irish rail change the livery of the DART

gooddarts10

With the current livery basically the same since the Darts introduction in the 80s is it time for a change?

Atlantic Dawn

They have modernised the look of it over the years, I don't think it looks too bad.

I hope for replacements they get the Tokyu 8520 class, by far the best spec carriages for comfort and pasenger space.

gooddarts10

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They have modernised the look of it over the years, I don't think it looks too bad.

I hope for replacements they get the Tokyu 8520 class, by far the best spec carriages for comfort and pasenger space.

In terms of fleet replacement the only thing mentioned has been the hybrid ones most probably built by stadler.
I just think they should update the colour scheme

SEPT 23 1989

It should be blue

Del.Monte

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They have modernised the look of it over the years, I don't think it looks too bad.

I hope for replacements they get the Tokyu 8520 class, by far the best spec carriages for comfort and pasenger space.

The original Linke-Hofmann-Busch EMUS are by far the most comfortable DART vehicles - decent cushions on the seats and opening windows. They even look the most pleasing externally.



Why change the livery when it's one of the few decent liveries on Irish Rail?

devnull

Del.Monte wrote: »

The original Linke-Hofmann-Busch EMUS are by far the most comfortable DART vehicles - decent cushions on the seats and opening windows. They even look the most pleasing externally.



Why change the livery when it's one of the few decent liveries on Irish Rail?

They also benefited from a quality refurbishment as well which hasn't been done on the cheap and have a reliable passenger information system and feel designed for the work they do. Good heat in the winter too.

The 8500 and 8510 series are awful, don't know where they are going on a regular basis and are prone to failed heating in the winter and overly padded seats that are too low and clearly not designed for Europeans

gooddarts10

devnull wrote: »

They also benefited from a quality refurbishment as well which hasn't been done on the cheap and have a reliable passenger information system and feel designed for the work they do. Good heat in the winter too.

The 8500 and 8510 series are awful, don't know where they are going on a regular basis and are prone to failed heating in the winter and overly padded seats that are too low and clearly not designed for Europeans[/quote
Its the colour I have the issue with , its dated in my opinion

tabbey

devnull wrote: »

The 8500 and 8510 series are awful, seats that are too low and clearly not designed for Europeans

Absolutely!

To be more accurate, they are not designed for any humans, European or any other race.

Whenever I travel on them, I need to sit facing back, otherwise I cannot stay on the seat, when stopping, and would end up landing on the passenger opposite.
They are also dreary, being unable to see over the seatbacks, a real safety and security problem.

tabbey

gooddarts10 wrote: »

With the current livery basically the same since the Darts introduction in the 80s is it time for a change?

Why change something that is fine?

Black & Tan was the norm for twenty years before the DART green and was always boring.

I am convinced that the green livery and clean, neat appearance was one of the reasons why DART became so popular almost instantly in 1984.

The DART scheme is fine, let us hold onto something good for a change.

GarIT

I want these http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2012_08/Orange03.jpg.b39c73fa2357b5f009c2c78d223c221b.jpg

tabbey

GarIT wrote: »

I want these http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2012_08/Orange03.jpg.b39c73fa2357b5f009c2c78d223c221b.jpg

Certainly no worse than the insipid current ICR livery.

The real problem with black + tan was the unwillingness or inability of CIE / IR to keep it clean.

PS - the full buffer/ jumper cover reveals the train to have been when new. Is it a computer generated livery image or did Rotem actually paint it for evaluation?

Del.Monte

GarIT wrote: »

I want these http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2012_08/Orange03.jpg.b39c73fa2357b5f009c2c78d223c221b.jpg

Hideous. What's wrong with a simple overall colour with small amount of discreet lining and branding that doesn't look like it was done in five minutes on a laptop.

The UTA carriage pictured on this link is a good example of an unfussy, serviceable livery.

https://akehoe.smugmug.com/PreservedIrishRailwaysGroups/Downpatrick-Co-Down-Railway/Carriages-and-Wagons/i-G5p6Z5q/A

tabbey

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

It should be blue

BR Rail blue or two tone GAA Dublin blue?

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

The UTA carriage pictured on this link is a good example of an unfussy, serviceable livery.

https://akehoe.smugmug.com/PreservedIrishRailwaysGroups/Downpatrick-Co-Down-Railway/Carriages-and-Wagons/i-G5p6Z5q/A

Ah, Downpatrick & Co Down Rly.

Does anybody know what was the Belfast & Co Down Rly livery?

I assume it was not changed too often.

gooddarts10

tabbey wrote: »

Why change something that is fine?

Black & Tan was the norm for twenty years before the DART green and was always boring.

I am convinced that the green livery and clean, neat appearance was one of the reasons why DART became so popular almost instantly in 1984.

The DART scheme is fine, let us hold onto something good for a change.

Dublin Bus/CIE had a very similar livery back in the 80s but have evolved into the current livery and in my opinion for the better

GarIT

tabbey wrote: »

Is it a computer generated livery image or did Rotem actually paint it for evaluation?

I just found it on google images, looks computer generated to me.

BowWow

They could start by taking the 25 year logo off. Saw one recently.

Jamie2k9

Think the DART could do with a freshen up (particularly with future expansion) , the only paint job that's old but still good is the MarkIV.

I liked the new 2900 and think the ICRs need a freshen up but I guess it would be a case of going like 2900 or tweak the silver.

Are the ICRs sparyed or stickers applied?

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Think the DART could do with a freshen up (particularly with future expansion) , the only paint job that's old but still good is the MarkIV.

I liked the new 2900 and think the ICRs need a freshen up but I guess it would be a case of going like 2900 or tweak the silver.

Are the ICRs sparyed or stickers applied?

You seriously think that the 29000s livery is good? Yuck.

Isambard

tabbey wrote: »

Certainly no worse than the insipid current ICR livery.

The real problem with black + tan was the unwillingness or inability of CIE / IR to keep it clean.

PS - the full buffer/ jumper cover reveals the train to have been when new. Is it a computer generated livery image or did Rotem actually paint it for evaluation?

in the same vein as my thinking Orange was a strange choice, black and tan was odd too. Surle green is the most approriate colour, properly applies in a pleasing scheme. I think the Darts above look fine

Jamie2k9

I prefer it to the DART, would be good to see an ICR image in it as well. I was never a fan of the orange although it did suit the MarkIII.

My main issue with the ICRs is the horrible shade of green and the almost orange instead of yellow ends on most sets.

MGWR

gooddarts10 wrote: »

With the current livery basically the same since the DART's introduction in the 80s is it time for a change?

You want the government to waste more money on things that ought to be spent on more important things (e.g. infrastructure, expansion)? A coat of paint does not affect how well the train runs, and it merely sends more money out to consultants, graphic designers and the paint shop so there can be one year of mismatches on the fleet for no reason. And how many times has IE changed its paint schemes in the past decade anyhow?

Even coming up with "DART" was an expense (versus "Dublin District"). Would have been cheaper to stick with the broken wheel CIE logo, which is what the 8100/8300 class were delivered with; and it was even extra money to come up with the original two-tone green scheme versus the standard (at the time) orange and black, and even then not all of the fleet was converted from the "black and tan" with the white stripe on top from the 1960s, with the Park Royals and the 6100-class push-pulls retired still wearing it. Lots of money on paint jobs on the Irish railways over the past half century but not enough on the railways themselves.

MGWR

Del.Monte wrote: »

The original Linke-Hofmann-Busch EMUs are by far the most comfortable DART vehicles - decent cushions on the seats and opening windows. They even look the most pleasing externally.

Why change the livery when it's one of the few decent liveries on Irish Rail?

So did they speed them up to go faster than the original 62 mph top speed? If not, then not so good for average speeds.

Would anyone ride them from Connolly to Drogheda? because that may be what we get if electrification to Drogheda ensues. (How about to Dundalk? They still have no toilets.)

MGWR

tabbey wrote: »

Black & Tan was the norm for twenty years before the DART green and was always boring.

I am convinced that the green livery and clean, neat appearance was one of the reasons why DART became so popular almost instantly in 1984.

The DART scheme is fine, let us hold onto something good for a change.

There were two iterations of "black and tan", the first one with the white stripe above the windows and black across the roof and the second "Supertrain" one with the "tan" on both bottom and top going over the roofline.

There were a number of other schemes experimented with before black and tan. One of them was green. Another one was silver (e.g. on the C class locos). So going green is actually a throwback.

As far as NIR goes, I prefer the burgundy to the royal blue.

And the DART became "popular" due to the increase in service over the 6100-class push-pull diesels (with re-engined C class), which were less frequent and slower to accelerate than EMUs, and also did not run through from Howth to Bray in all cases. Cannot speak to the effectiveness of the DART feeder bus routes, since some of them were cancelled eventually (e.g. route 101) and the remaining ones have far reduced frequency over their original operations (e.g. routes 111 and 114). If the 8100 class were delivered with "black and tan" colours, their popularity would not have been less than wearing the two-tone green.

no.8

Del.Monte wrote:

The original Linke-Hofmann-Busch EMUS are by far the most comfortable DART vehicles - decent cushions on the seats and opening windows. They even look the most pleasing externally.

Certainly not a bad design but windows in modern trains do not open (or at least the larger windows). Much improved sound insulation, temperature regulation and managing sudden pressure differential in tunnels or due to oncoming trains.
Nothing like sticking you head (a little bit) out of an old carriage and watching the countryside go by but not in commuter trains

cython

MGWR wrote: »

You want the government to waste more money on things that ought to be spent on more important things (e.g. infrastructure, expansion)? A coat of paint does not affect how well the train runs, and it merely sends more money out to consultants, graphic designers and the paint shop so there can be one year of mismatches on the fleet for no reason. And how many times has IE changed its paint schemes in the past decade anyhow?

Even coming up with "DART" was an expense (versus "Dublin District"). Would have been cheaper to stick with the broken wheel CIE logo, which is what the 8100/8300 class were delivered with; and it was even extra money to come up with the original two-tone green scheme versus the standard (at the time) orange and black, and even then not all of the fleet was converted from the "black and tan" with the white stripe on top from the 1960s, with the Park Royals and the 6100-class push-pulls retired still wearing it. Lots of money on paint jobs on the Irish railways over the past half century but not enough on the railways themselves.

You wish it'd only be a year of mismatches! The 29k repaint kicked off a few years ago at this point and they're still not all done!

MGWR

cython wrote: »

You wish it'd only be a year of mismatches! The 29k repaint kicked off a few years ago at this point and they're still not all done!

Well yes; I was being a bit optimistic. I had seen how quickly the orange and black on IE (when this became the new name for CIE rail) had gained the extra white stripes above and below the windows, on the Cravens and Mark 2Ds as well as the Mark 3s when they were delivered, and of course on the 2600-class "Arrows", and thought that the standard had at least been upped somewhat. Alas, though, it has slipped back into the same doldrums of the days of the 6100-class push-pulls and remaining laminates and Park Royals. (Only got to ride in the laminates when I was really young.)

gooddarts10

MGWR wrote: »

You want the government to waste more money on things that ought to be spent on more important things (e.g. infrastructure, expansion)?
A coat of paint does not affect how well the train runs, and it merely sends more money out to consultants, graphic designers and the paint shop so there can be one year of mismatches on the fleet for no reason. And how many times has IE changed its paint schemes in the past decade anyhow?


Even coming up with "DART" was an expense (versus "Dublin District"). Would have been cheaper to stick with the broken wheel CIE logo, which is what the 8100/8300 class were delivered with; and it was even extra money to come up with the original two-tone green scheme versus the standard (at the time) orange and black, and even then not all of the fleet was converted from the "black and tan" with the white stripe on top from the 1960s, with the Park Royals and the 6100-class push-pulls retired still wearing it. Lots of money on paint jobs on the Irish railways over the past half century but not enough on the railways themselves.

So a shopkeeper should never waste money painting his shopfront as it doesn't affect the running of his shop ?
Trains are Irish rails shopfront.
You could run a design competition and pick a livery from that , something like the NTA did when they were deciding the livery for the newly privatised bus routes.

Stephen15

I would like to see the DART done away with. It's a bit of an an oxy moron when the DART is not rapid transport and can never be as long as other trains run on its lines. Maybe after expansion we could have a new livery and just call it the train.

Del.Monte

gooddarts10 wrote: »

So a shopkeeper should never waste money painting his shopfront as it doesn't affect the running of his shop ?
Trains are Irish rails shopfront.
You could run a design competition and pick a livery from that , something like the NTA did when they were deciding the livery for the newly privatised bus routes.

Yes, but a shop keeper doesn't spend a fortune rebranding his shop pointlessly. Who are the other railway companies operating in Ireland that IE need to stand out from - the RPSI or Belmond? Plus a shopkeeper has to pay for his own rebranding not the taxpayer.

gooddarts10

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yes, but a shop keeper doesn't spend a fortune rebranding his shop pointlessly. Who are the other railway companies operating in Ireland that IE need to stand out from - the RPSI or Belmond? Plus a shopkeeper has to pay for his own rebranding not the taxpayer.

I’m not suggesting rebranding just a different colour scheme, you are aware they do repaint trains when required yes

GM228

MGWR wrote: »

Even coming up with "DART" was an expense (versus "Dublin District"). Would have been cheaper to stick with the broken wheel CIE logo, which is what the 8100/8300 class were delivered with; and it was even extra money to come up with the original two-tone green scheme versus the standard (at the time) orange and black, and even then not all of the fleet was converted from the "black and tan" with the white stripe on top from the 1960s, with the Park Royals and the 6100-class push-pulls retired still wearing it. Lots of money on paint jobs on the Irish railways over the past half century but not enough on the railways themselves.

There was no money to "come up with" the original DART livery.

The livery was based on the Bombardier designed two-tone green livery they supplied the CIE KD buses in, the green represented CIEs Dublin operations and from 1987 when Dublin Bus was set up they adopted the two-tone green livery (with an added orange stripe) as their corporate livery.

MGWR

GM228 wrote: »

There was no money to "come up with" the original DART livery.

The livery was based on the Bombardier designed two-tone green livery they supplied the CIE KD buses in, the green represented CIE(')s Dublin operations and from 1987 when Dublin Bus was set up they adopted the two-tone green livery (with an added orange stripe) as their corporate livery.

Yes, there was indeed money; opinion will not change facts. Every time there's a "rebranding", it costs public money to design that brand, to trademark it, to come up with the graphics, to set up the contracts for the painting plus colour matching what with greens requiring same not to mention the expense of different light-fast pigments based on colour (lest anyone forget, the remaining Atlanteans were repainted in the two-tone green colour scheme, both the CIE-bodied and Van Hool McArdle-bodied ones), ad nauseam. I have to say that although coming up with the "Bus Eireann" brand was an expense, sticking with the provincial bus service's cream/red scheme was at least a money-saver on design as was staying with the Expressway name plus Expressway amber/red scheme.

TheBoyConor

GarIT wrote: »

I want these http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2012_08/Orange03.jpg.b39c73fa2357b5f009c2c78d223c221b.jpg

Oh Lord!
I shot my pants!

whisky_galore

It looks fine, it's a relief to have a solid established 'brand' colour scheme in contrast to the almost constant rebranding and many shades of grey and/or green of IE or IR or whatever they want to call themselves now.

Stephen15

As much as I dislike the ICRs I think the livery they currently have suits them and looks well on them.

dowlingm

cython wrote: »

You wish it'd only be a year of mismatches! The 29k repaint kicked off a few years ago at this point and they're still not all done!

same here with the needless reprinting of GO Transit's fleet from green to "snot green", so in any given consist you have either green, faded green in need of repaint, or snot. Desperate looking.

MGWR

GarIT wrote: »

I want these http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/uploads/monthly_2012_08/Orange03.jpg.b39c73fa2357b5f009c2c78d223c221b.jpg

Yes, this made me smile in spite of myself. And in spite of having those trains from Cho-seon replace perfectly fine Mark 3s.

MGWR

dowlingm wrote: »

same here with the needless reprinting of GO Transit's fleet from green to "snot green", so in any given consist you have either green, faded green in need of repaint, or snot. Desperate looking.

Perhaps GO should have stuck with the simple bare metal of the Hawker-Siddeley RTC-85SP/Ds, i.e. the single-level cars that, like CIE's AEC 2600 class, were converted from DMU to push-pull. (Video shows them running on Montreal's AMT.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxvZLtVau5o