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Workplace issue- Holiday whilst on sick leave

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    #62
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And did you tell your employer?

    Why would he have had to?

    It's no more the employers business if he's in the Maldives than it is whether or not they went down to Lidl this afternoon.

    All the employer needs to be aware of is they are not currently able to perform their duties and are therefor not available for work.

    Nor would he be obliged to mention to his employer he's currently in hospital.


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    #63
    duffman13
    Registered Users Posts: 8,952 ✭✭✭duffman13


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    (c) Since when did you know so much about the OP?

    All the info is freely available on this thread, you may have missed it like the OP missed your post
    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    And did you tell your employer?

    He's under no obligation to do so unless his sick leave policy request he does so. From a legal stand point the OPs employer is on slightly shaky ground and I'd recommend an appeal even if its ultimately unsuccessful


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    #64
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    OP- you've decided to ignore my last post and focus on other posts. So I'm out of this thread.


    Let's say it was a wedding and take the word holiday out of it!?!

    Let's say it was an over night stay in a hotel ?

    Is it that you are saying your signed unfit for work so you are unfit for everything ?


    Best of luck but it's becoming apparent to me what your motivation is on this thread.

    Apologies, wasn't ignoring your last post. As i stated this is my first post on here.

    And as i said im looking for a good debate on the issue, i am not saying im right, I'm not saying im wrong. It just seems to me that it is a good topic to debate.


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wexie wrote: »
    Why would he have had to?

    It's no more the employers business if he's in the Maldives than it is whether or not they went down to Lidl this afternoon.

    All the employer needs to be aware of is they are not currently able to perform their duties and are therefor not available for work.

    Nor would he be obliged to mention to his employer he's currently in hospital.

    It is if they're paying for it. Like I said, this has moved beyond the original OP question and I'm not getting involved. :)


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    #66
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is if they're paying for it. Like I said, this has moved beyond the original OP question and I'm not getting involved. :)

    Paying for what? Sick leave?

    Nope...still not...


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    #67
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    (a) I never said OP is faking it
    (b) the original discussion was about a 2.5 week "vacation"
    (c) Since when did you know so much about the OP?

    It was 2 and a half weeks of unfit for work ...with 4 days abroad in between.Im using mobile so its awkward enough to reply to everyone- I apologies in advance


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gabes2016 wrote: »
    It was 2 and a half weeks of unfit for work ...with 4 days abroad in between.

    You originally posted:
    Interesting, communication wise I agree. However, it comes down to the reason for WRS.

    "It was a brief absence 2 and a half weeks, management knew days previous thay I had the trip planned".

    that to me means, you were away, on planned annual leave, for 2.5 weeks.

    Don't take me for a fool and try and squirm out of this now. That above post, your post, was very clear and it led me to posting a reply, which you ignored, until now. Now you're saying you were only away for a few nights. So which is it? Away for a few nights or away for 2.5 weeks? you can't have it both ways.


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    #69
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Away for a few nights or away for 2.5 weeks? you can't have it both ways.

    Jayzis....

    Off work for 2.5 weeks.....


    During which he was on 'holidays' for a few nights...

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #70
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    wexie wrote: »
    With regards to the OP here are my thoughts and experiences :

    - Yes you are ABSOLUTELY (there aren't any doubts here) entitled to go abroad while on sick leave. I'm purposely not calling them holidays as you aren't taking holidays when you are on sick leave. When you are on sick leave it's none of anyone's business where you are, in the country or not. Provided obviously the reason you are on sick leave doesn't stop you from going. Claiming to have a broken leg and posting pictures from the slopes in Austria clearly isn't going to go over well. Being off with work related stress/anxiety/depression and posting pictures of you chillin in the south of France, that's perfectly acceptable and in many cases encouraged by medical professionals (alcohol intake aside) and if nothing else a management/hr team should have every interest in the employee recovering as soon as possible.

    - not only are you entitled to travel abroad while on sick leave, you're previously booked days should be refunded (hence you not being 'on holidays') AND you will still accrue days while on sick leave.

    FWIW it sounds like your company (IT I'm going to go ahead and guess) has very similar approach to management and 'support' to my previous employer.

    If you are in hospital there is absolutely no way you should have to be dealing with any work issues. The problem is that...pointing this out to an employer, no matter how politely, generally doesn't go over too well.

    Best of luck with it all.
    you guessed right !


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    #71
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You originally posted:
    Interesting, communication wise I agree. However, it comes down to the reason for WRS.

    "It was a brief absence 2 and a half weeks, management knew days previous thay I had the trip planned".

    that to me means, you were away, on planned annual leave, for 2.5 weeks.

    Don't take me for a fool and try and squirm out of this now. That above post, your post, was very clear and it led me to posting a reply, which you ignored, until now. Now you're saying you were only away for a few nights. So which is it? Away for a few nights or away for 2.5 weeks? you can't have it both ways.

    signed off on the 10th until the 29th inclusive
    trip 24th to the 27th Apologies if I wasnt clear


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    #72
    smileyj1987
    Registered Users Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭smileyj1987


    honestly from my experience of sick leave recently, no one even asked what i was doing or even asked to see a medical clearance cert. I just returned back to work , I had a stomach ulcer burst i wasn't being paid for being out of work but what you do on sick leave is no one's business. if you are out sick you are out sick , if anything happens while you are sick on the business premises i bet they wouldn't pay if any claim was mafe on the insurance the company has because you wherent fit to be there in the first place.


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    #73
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I not surprised that people aren't aware of their rights for holidays and sick leave. It does seem odd.

    If you fall sick during your holidays for example, you are entitled to claim back those days as leave.

    Sickness is not as a result of actually attending work, your entitlements to sick leave from work do not conflict with leave entitlement from work for illness. I.e. Your annual leave is paid as part of your work, they're just days you don't actually be present in the workplace. Hence your illness entitlements are no different than if your were present.


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    #74
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Deleted User wrote: »


    Don't take me for a fool and try and squirm out of this now.

    Your tone is unacceptable. Plus, you're the only one that misunderstood the OP.


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    #75
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,984 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You originally posted:
    Interesting, communication wise I agree. However, it comes down to the reason for WRS.

    "It was a brief absence 2 and a half weeks, management knew days previous thay I had the trip planned".

    that to me means, you were away, on planned annual leave, for 2.5 weeks.

    Don't take me for a fool and try and squirm out of this now. That above post, your post, was very clear and it led me to posting a reply, which you ignored, until now. Now you're saying you were only away for a few nights. So which is it? Away for a few nights or away for 2.5 weeks? you can't have it both ways.

    You are right, it was very clear.

    I could tell the OP was signed off on sick leave for 2.5 weeks and went away for a few days within that period.

    Maybe you are a fool?


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    #76
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    I accept both sides of the situation. However, as you can see by the poll there is a lot of uncertainty. I have no problem in following policy, so should it not be included in the employee handbook what an employee should do in a case ( I imagine it doesn't happen a lot) but even so, both the employee and employer know where they stand. Not so the employee can use and abuse but also the employer to use and abuse. if that makes sense


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    #77
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Gabes2016 wrote: »
    Being more specific to the above. If an employee has holidays booked through work, months in advance, but unfortunately closer to the date the employee is signed off work, with work related stress. The employee goes on said holiday( don't even know if it should still be called a holiday). comes back and is hit with a disciplinary process on the below ground, from the policy.

    "To be eligible under the sickness and accident policy, all medical treatment and certification should be received in the Republic of Ireland."

    Just going out on a limb and assuming you didn't receive any treatment during the 2.5 days you were gone then you haven't actually fallen foul of anything in the policy have you?

    Would you consider asking your GP to put in writing that they did advise you to go on the already planned and paid for trip? May just end the 'debate' right then and there.


  • Options
    #78
    skirteen
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭skirteen


    OP I've previously been in your situation, the only difference being I was absent from work due to physical illness rather than mental illness. While I was on sick-leave I went abroad for a week with the agreement of my GP as he felt 'a change of scenery' would be beneficial to my recovery.

    I fulfilled my obligations to my employer by submitting my cert/sick note on time and by making regular contact to update them on my illness. This was as per my employee handbook and t&c's of my employment. On my return to work I made them aware of my trip and there were no repercussions. At no time did I feel obliged to tell them I'd been abroad.

    I'd be of the opinion that once you have followed your employer's guidelines on absence/sickness you have done nothing wrong. You were still contactable by phone and you travelled on a recommendation from a health professional.

    I would second the suggestion that you ask your doctor to confirm his advice in writing and ask to speak a representative of the HR dept yourself. If you're not up to speaking to HR in person put your grievance in writing, make sure you keep a copy. Emphasise the mental anguish the issue is causing you, in addition to the previous issues that have resulted in your initial absence.

    Mental health issues in the workplace have been ignored for far too long and unless employees are prepared to be brave and fight their corner employers will fail to acknowledge work related stress as a serious problem.

    Best of luck with your recovery and I hope you have a positive outcome with your employer.


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    #79
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    wexie wrote: »
    Just going out on a limb and assuming you didn't receive any treatment during the 2.5 days you were gone then you haven't actually fallen foul of anything in the policy have you?

    Would you consider asking your GP to put in writing that they did advise you to go on the already planned and paid for trip? May just end the 'debate' right then and there.
    I have tried that, went through the appeal process so effectively it is now finished.

    I only received a letter from my gp now saying that alll medical treatment and certification was received in Ireland.


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    #80
    TheBeach
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBeach


    A couple of years ago I went on a holiday while off sick. It was a pre booked, pre paid Holiday. The operation that had me out sick was emergency. On 'holiday' I sat on a lounge chair reading, ate, slept. Totally different from work. I wouldn't have been fit too work. No way. My work where totally understanding about it all.


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    #81
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    As an employer going on holidays while on sick leave depends on the circumstances.
    If you are signed off with a bad back and go on a skiing holiday , well that would obviously raise a few questions.

    In the OPs case, they were signed off by the company doctor with work related stress.

    If they choose to go on holiday during this period they are perfectly entitled to do so and on top of that they do not lose any of their holiday entitlement either.

    For me the company have behaved in a bizarre fashion, they have tried to contact the OP while they are on stress related sick leave and used this to issue a verbal warning on return from sick leave.

    FWIW it’s my opinion that the company are so far out of line here that it’s laughable. They have left themselves wide open if it goes any further.

    Op it would appear that they don’t want you as an employee anymore and maybe you should start looking elsewhere when you improve healthwise.

    It’s not a nice situation to be in and I don’t think I’d like to work for that company.

    Whatever you do I hope it goes well for you.


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    #82
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,384 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    op, by any chance is this business a call center, please dont mention your employers name?


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    #83
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    op, by any chance is this business a call center, please dont mention your employers name?


    No not a call centre, but a corporation.


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    #84
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    Shelflife wrote: »
    As an employer going on holidays while on sick leave depends on the circumstances.
    If you are signed off with a bad back and go on a skiing holiday , well that would obviously raise a few questions.

    In the OPs case, they were signed off by the company doctor with work related stress.

    If they choose to go on holiday during this period they are perfectly entitled to do so and on top of that they do not lose any of their holiday entitlement either.

    For me the company have behaved in a bizarre fashion, they have tried to contact the OP while they are on stress related sick leave and used this to issue a verbal warning on return from sick leave.

    FWIW it’s my opinion that the company are so far out of line here that it’s laughable. They have left themselves wide open if it goes any further.

    Op it would appear that they don’t want you as an employee anymore and maybe you should start looking elsewhere when you improve healthwise.

    It’s not a nice situation to be in and I don’t think I’d like to work for that company.

    Whatever you do I hope it goes well for you.

    Thanks for the kind words, you hit the nail on the head.


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    #85
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,384 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Gabes2016 wrote:
    No not a call centre, but a corporation.


    Worked for a large corporation before, never again, the job was a major contributor to my mental health issues


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    #86
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Gabes2016 wrote: »
    No not a call centre, but a corporation.

    American multinational, HR offshore somewhere other than the ones who come to meetings (not on your side make no mistake)....

    Some of these places become very difficult to work in once there's any mention of 'mental health' despite reassurances of 'we're doing everything we can' etc. etc. etc.

    And with regards to standing up for yourself you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

    As said already, take whatever time you need to sort yourself out and then move on as fast as you can.


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    #87
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,622 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    As I understand it, you had already booked (and had approved) some holiday leave with your employer, no problems. Then, shortly before this leave was due to start, you were assessed by the company doctor and went off work with work-related stress. This period off work lasted 2 and a half weeks in total, and at some point during this period, you went on the holiday/trip you had originally planned.

    The company doctor who signed you off with work-related stress - did they know (or did you tell them) about the upcoming holiday?

    As you had already booked holiday time with your work, and had it approved, and as you say that you have had any/all treatment in ROI, I'm not sure of the validity of the censure. It sounds to me that they are pissed off with you (maybe they think you scammed them in some way regarding the work-related stress), and looking to punish you in some way, but I'm not sure there are grounds for it.


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    #88
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    osarusan wrote: »
    As I understand it, you had already booked (and had approved) some holiday leave with your employer, no problems. Then, shortly before this leave was due to start, you were assessed by the company doctor and went off work with work-related stress. This period off work lasted 2 and a half weeks in total, and at some point during this period, you went on the holiday/trip you had originally planned.

    The company doctor who signed you off with work-related stress - did they know (or did you tell them) about the upcoming holiday?

    As you had already booked holiday time with your work, and had it approved, and as you say that you have had any/all treatment in ROI, I'm not sure of the validity of the censure. It sounds to me that they are pissed off with you (maybe they think you scammed them in some way regarding the work-related stress), and looking to punish you in some way, but I'm not sure there are grounds for it.

    It was my own gp I told about the holiday, at the time i had to collect the social welfare certs.

    I don't think there are grounds for it to be honest my self. I can get over my manager trying it on like this, but this is now backed by HR and the business.

    Hence I am where I am none of this makes any sense to me at all if im being honest.


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    #89
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #90
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    I know someone who went on holidays while awaiting social welfare sickness benefit* and got the doctor to sign certs so he got paid while away. The doctor was not too pleased but did it. Not only that but the guy went to the CWO before he went and got money as the SW had not come through

    *Not sure the exact term. it is a long time ago before it was called DA


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