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Preview: Leinster v Saracens, Sunday April 1, 15:30, BT Sports 2
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Well not to be spanked in then. They got spanked.Burkie1203 wrote: »Ireland in paris. There was no game to win.
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You're completely wrong. That isnt a red card. Wasnt so late that it will be called. No arms and use of shoulder means penalty but it doesnt mean its a red card.The jump
The connection with the face
You going to tell me both of them are untrue?
Add to this it was late, no arms, the use if the shoulder and he clearly targeted him.
Don't tell me I'm lying without any proof to back up your point.
What would it take for a red card? For it to be a little bit higher?
If you're going to target someone late, above the shoulders, leaping up into the air to make sure you did catch them and catch them with your own shoulder, you could have no complaints if you saw red.
The TMO would have contacted Garces on the ref mic if he felt the incident required another look on the video. That he didnt meant another look wasnt needed.IBF nobody is saying it’s illegal to jump into the air to make a tackle, the point is he’s clearing jumping to aim his shoulder up to Sexton’s head. That’s reckless and is covered under the laws.
To give an equivilant if you put your arm out to tackle someone but intentionally raise it to clothes line someone, there’s no law against raising your arm but you can bet a red would be considered in that scenario.
Whether he jumped or not may be irrelevant in terms of the laws, however it’s definitive proof that he intentionally headhunted and if he made contact with Sexton’s head he’d be getting a red there.
Did he make contact with the head? Tbh I’m not sure, the stills above make it look like he did. I’d have liked to see Garces go to TMO tho because frankly that was the exact situation you need to do it in to stamp out dirty gameplay.
Its not at all in red card territory and your analogy is completely wrong.So I can clobber someone in the head with my shoulder as long as I jump? Right so.
Another angle
He's definitely in red card territory.
The comments of captains are not dismissed very quickly. It brings refs teams attention to something they otherwise mightnt look at. There is nothing to be gained by province keeping this in the spotlight. You are going OTT on this. This isnt a major or even minor injustice.For the record, I wasn't suggesting that Leinster fight fire with fire. Anything that opens Leinster or any Irish team up to poor discipline is never a good idea.
I was just pointing out that the captains talking to the ref never seems to work either. They're very quickly dismissed.
I feel like not enough is done by the province to keep the issue in the spotlight. It's potentially a very serious one.
Exactly. Leinster or any province acting similarly would just see players getting punished needlessly for no gain.I really, really don't see why you think Leinster engaging in the same behaviour would stop opposition doing it. If anything it is more likely to just encourage even more of it. Both Leinster and Munster have a stand out player that they rely on - there is very little that can be done to change that particular scenario.
Sexton is protected enough. He plays very abrasively. What more do you want refs to do to protect him exactly?My point is that Sexton should not be a pin cushion for opposing players, nothing more. It's been happening for several years now and the refs just don't protect him. I believe it's valid and Rory Best discussed this with a ref during last years 6nations. I don't know what the answer is, but surely the mans safety should be a priority.
All I am saying is that in my opinion a late hit on Farrell may stop Sarries or other opponents taking liberties. I don't know if it would or not but it's just an opinion.
I don't mind if you all disagree.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »
You're completely wrong. That isnt a red card. Wasnt so late that it will be called. No arms and use of shoulder means penalty but it doesnt mean its a red card.The jump
The connection with the face
You going to tell me both of them are untrue?
Add to this it was late, no arms, the use if the shoulder and he clearly targeted him.
Don't tell me I'm lying without any proof to back up your point.
What would it take for a red card? For it to be a little bit higher?
If you're going to target someone late, above the shoulders, leaping up into the air to make sure you did catch them and catch them with your own shoulder, you could have no complaints if you saw red.
The TMO would have contacted Garces on the ref mic if he felt the incident required another look on the video. That he didnt meant another look wasnt needed.IBF nobody is saying it’s illegal to jump into the air to make a tackle, the point is he’s clearing jumping to aim his shoulder up to Sexton’s head. That’s reckless and is covered under the laws.
To give an equivilant if you put your arm out to tackle someone but intentionally raise it to clothes line someone, there’s no law against raising your arm but you can bet a red would be considered in that scenario.
Whether he jumped or not may be irrelevant in terms of the laws, however it’s definitive proof that he intentionally headhunted and if he made contact with Sexton’s head he’d be getting a red there.
Did he make contact with the head? Tbh I’m not sure, the stills above make it look like he did. I’d have liked to see Garces go to TMO tho because frankly that was the exact situation you need to do it in to stamp out dirty gameplay.
Its not at all in red card territory and your analogy is completely wrong.So I can clobber someone in the head with my shoulder as long as I jump? Right so.
Another angle
He's definitely in red card territory.
The comments of captains are not dismissed very quickly. It brings refs teams attention to something they otherwise mightnt look at. There is nothing to be gained by province keeping this in the spotlight. You are going OTT on this. This isnt a major or even minor injustice.For the record, I wasn't suggesting that Leinster fight fire with fire. Anything that opens Leinster or any Irish team up to poor discipline is never a good idea.
I was just pointing out that the captains talking to the ref never seems to work either. They're very quickly dismissed.
I feel like not enough is done by the province to keep the issue in the spotlight. It's potentially a very serious one.
Exactly. Leinster or any province acting similarly would just see players getting punished needlessly for no gain.I really, really don't see why you think Leinster engaging in the same behaviour would stop opposition doing it. If anything it is more likely to just encourage even more of it. Both Leinster and Munster have a stand out player that they rely on - there is very little that can be done to change that particular scenario.
Sexton is protected enough. He plays very abrasively. What more do you want refs to do to protect him exactly?My point is that Sexton should not be a pin cushion for opposing players, nothing more. It's been happening for several years now and the refs just don't protect him. I believe it's valid and Rory Best discussed this with a ref during last years 6nations. I don't know what the answer is, but surely the mans safety should be a priority.
All I am saying is that in my opinion a late hit on Farrell may stop Sarries or other opponents taking liberties. I don't know if it would or not but it's just an opinion.
I don't mind if you all disagree.
So intentionally jumping so you can shoulder charge someone's head isn't red card territory?
I hope you're never in charge of player welfare in rugby union.
Also, if referees are paying attention then why does Sexton continue to get hit with late tackles in nearly every game he plays?
You seem very angry at the idea that people might want some protection for the best player of their province and country. Calm down a little.0 -
Afaik, he's a ref.So intentionally jumping so you can shoulder charge someone's head isn't red card territory?
I hope you're never in charge of player welfare in rugby union.
Also, if referees are paying attention then why does Sexton continue to get hit with late tackles in nearly every game he plays?
You seem very angry at the idea that people might want some protection for the best player of their province and country. Calm down a little.
Could be wrong, but if so, I'm sure he'll be along shortly to correct me.
Even if I'm right.
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Can you prove intent?So intentionally jumping so you can shoulder charge someone's head isn't red card territory?
I hope you're never in charge of player welfare in rugby union.
Also, if referees are paying attention then why does Sexton continue to get hit with late tackles in nearly every game he plays?
You seem very angry at the idea that people might want some protection for the best player of their province and country. Calm down a little.
You know nothing about me. There is late tackles and late tackles. There is tackles that are late/on the line and you could penalise them but if you did penalise all of them then you'd barely have a player left at the end.
If this was as clear a red card as you are making it out to be then why did between the ref/his ARs/TMO did nothing about it in game then?
Sexton gets hit late/on the line each game as he's a bloody fly half who plays on the gain line, he also is a big guy and key/main player for all sides he plays for. That he gets extra attention from the opposition is natural and overwhelming majority of it is completely legal as this was.
It wasnt cited as it wasnt a red card offence
Im am a refprawnsambo wrote: »Afaik, he's a ref.
Could be wrong, but if so, I'm sure he'll be along shortly to correct me.
Even if I'm right.0 -
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Murray Kinsella has done his usual forensic analysis of Leinster's tries. The bits I enjoy are the little details. Like James Lowe losing his boot to Liam Williams and still tearing on up the touchline, long after the ball has changed hands. Isa Nacewa having given the pass to Riingrose gives Goode an almighty shove out of the way. In the build up to James Lowe's try, he's on James Ryan's heels and pulls Liam Williams down into the ensuing ruck, leaving the short side virtually uncovered. Williams had shown a passing interest in attending the breakdown, Lowe made sure he was committed. 0
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Burkie1203 wrote: »Credit also must go to Itoje for dragging Lowe over the line.
Is that a hint from him? #ItojeToLeinster
#BehindTonerFardyRyan 0 -
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Well technically you're correct. I don't think his hands had quite closed around the ball at the moment of impact.irishbucsfan wrote: »Incorrect. He hit him while the ball was in the air, and Toner was directly beside Sexton.
But sure if it's such an obvious red card as we've all been told it is then Wigglesworth will be punished.
But it certainly wasn't a competition for a ball in the air as TLS posited. Which is what I was replying to. And I never said it was a red, so there's no point telling me it wasn't.
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prawnsambo wrote: »Well technically you're correct. I don't think his hands had quite closed around the ball at the moment of impact.
The ball was clearly in mid air when they made contact. Wasn't even touching Toner's hands. The picture you posted is not the point of contact.
People need to stop relying on still images, it's crazy. Between this sort of thing and also images from the side where their two shoulders collided that make it look like he hit him in the face. The clip is far more enlightening and explains entirely (for those willing to see it) why its been treated the way it has been.0 -
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prawnsambo wrote: »I'm, not relying on anything. You're snippage implies I'm arguing for some kind of sanction. I'm doing no such thing. Please quote where I said otherwise.
And don't snip my posts to argue against a point I'm not making. You'd be the first to scream bloody blue murder when somebody did the same to you.
And if the only point of contention is that the ball was on the way to Toner and not in his hands, grand. It wasn't what my original post was about.
TLS's point is that the tackle was not late enough to be considered a penalisable offense on its own. That is certainly true. If Wigglesworth had wrapped it would likely not have been a penalty at all. That was his point, your point about the ball being in Toner's hands is incorrect, your point about it not being a contest in the air misses the point.
For what it's worth, Toner was barely even in the camera shot from that angle at the moment they made contact.
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This discussion has been closed.
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