Property Metrics: Euro / Square Meter

koheim

Price per sqm should be mandatory, this is what all other countries use. I think there are vested interest against it. It could devaluate the smallest 3 bed semidetached, but so it should. I am sick of listening to what the cost of a 3 bed semi is, some (most are) are 90sqm, but some are 120sqm, you can't compare those as 3bed semi, that is just wrong and lazy.  
When you build a house all the talk is price per sqm, but as soon as you buy this is suddenly not available.

Graham

hognef wrote: »

What is the best indicator so? Number of bedrooms, which is pretty much the only metric always available?

Comparable property is the only realistic indicator of recent market value.

Far too many variables for €/sq m to be meaningful on its own. It's a meaningful addition but nothing more.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that sq m shouldn't be provided. I'm suggesting it's not the answer to life the universe and everything.

Living Off The Splash

Quite often in the second phase of a new development the houses are smaller than in the first phase. Show Houses are elevated in size. Many times people see the show house with it's furniture fitting in nicely, then try and fit their furniture and it doesn't fit.
If purchasing one of these second hand it is often advisable to see a range of houses in the estate.

Diarmuid

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Don't you know? Ireland is different. It's special. Metrics that work the world over, don't apply here.

For instance, if you are buying in France, you could use this website to browse the average price/m2 for each region, down to almost block-by-block resolution. Here's Nice for example https://www.meilleursagents.com/prix-immobilier/nice-06000/

It's an excellent metric. For example, say I have 300k to spend but I want at least 90m2. Well then I can go to the heatmap above and see where I most likely will find such properties (€3300/m2). Say I don't like the look of those locations then it's a very simple calculation to see how small I have to go to afford a property in the location I want to live in.

This guys has used this data to investigate correlations between various factors in a property in Paris. Location is primary followed by size. http://flothesof.github.io/paris-appartment-prices.html

Graham

Diarmuid wrote: »

It's an excellent metric. For example, say I have 300k to spend but I want at least 90m2. Well then I can go to the heatmap above and see where I most likely will find such properties (€3300/m2). Say I don't like the look of those locations then it's a very simple calculation to see how small I have to go to afford a property in the location I want to live in.

It's still a meaningless metric on its own.

€3300/m2 could be great value for a fully restored châteauesque style family home or crap value for a partially modernised cow shed.

Diarmuid

Graham wrote: »

It's still a meaningless metric on its own.
.

In conjunction with the location, it's the most important metric. By a long shot

Graham

Diarmuid wrote: »

In conjunction with the location, it's the most important metric. By a long shot

I refer you to the aforementioned cowshed in what used to be the grounds of the fully restored châteauesque style family home.

Consider 2 dimensionally equal adjoining semi-detached houses. One has recently had a full refurb, new electrics, new wiring, new flooring, new windows, fully fitted state of the art kitchen. The other hasn't been touched since 1968.

Location and €/m2 are nowhere near the full story.

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

In conjunction with the location, it's the most important metric. By a long shot

Important where? In Dublin?

Site area and zoning are arguably more important. And freehold vs leasehold.

Claw Hammer

There are 3 elements in the valuation of property and size is not one of them.

theboringfox

Lumen wrote: »

Important where? In Dublin?

Site area and zoning are arguably more important. And freehold vs leasehold.

What is the value of freehold vs leasehold. I had a 900 year leasehold and I went and got the freehold as I kept seeing freehold title being noted as big deal. I get the legal difference but in my case the lease was so long and the peppercorn rent was so tiny that I don't think there was any benefit. I just did it as thought it might help value if selling and I just for no reason had a thing about owning the freehold.

hognef

Graham wrote: »

Location and €/m2 are nowhere near the full story.

It's not the full story, so it must be useless? Can't have everything, so don't want anything?

Graham

hognef wrote: »

It's not the full story, so it must be useless? Can't have everything, so don't want anything?

I'm assuming you quoted the wrong post because I know that's not what I suggested.

ted1

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays. It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Location, garden size and the finish greatly affect the price. Euro /sqm is far from the best indicator

robp

ted1 wrote: »

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays.  It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Location, garden size  and the finish greatly affect the price.  Euro /sqm is far from the best indicator

Finish is hard to show in a website add and it can be subjective. One way to show finish it is show the build year on the website ad. All German house ads show the build year (it is used to calculate price in rentals). The more information available makes a better market.

ted1

robp wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

mrknock wrote: »

If we managed to obtain for all properties

-euro/sqm (best price predictor)
-geotagged all properties in the price register

We would not see half of the abuse we see nowadays.  It is like technology never reached politics in this country

Location, garden size  and the finish greatly affect the price.  Euro /sqm is far from the best indicator

Finish is hard to show in a website add and it can be subjective. One way to show finish it is show the build year on the website ad. All German house ads show the build year (it is used to calculate price in rentals). The more information available makes a better market.

That’s daft.

So tell me how do you base rent based on build year?

Sleepy

The more dimensions of data available, the better any analysis can be.

Property and Site Square Meter Size, Most Recent BER rating, Number of Bedrooms, Electoral District and Year of Build should all be included in the Property Price Register IMO.

Lumen

Sleepy wrote: »

The more dimensions of data available, the better any analysis can be.

Property and Site Square Meter Size, Most Recent BER rating, Number of Bedrooms, Electoral District and Year of Build should all be included in the Property Price Register IMO.

Electoral district? To what end? What does it matter?

The dysfunction in Ireland's property market has absolutely nothing to do with poor metrics.

A lot of people on the internet thought the PPR would stop people paying stupid money for property. That was and is a peculiar techno-utopian perspective.

Efficient markets generally require good information, good information is not sufficient. A residential property is so far away from an efficient financial instrument that marginally improved data quality would really make no difference.

Supply is the only thing that matters in this market, and not one extra house will be built if the PPR contains this data.

It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, polishing a turd, a distraction from the real issues.

ted1

Sleepy wrote: »

The more dimensions of data available, the better any analysis can be.

Property and Site Square Meter Size, Most Recent BER rating, Number of Bedrooms, Electoral District and Year of Build should all be included in the Property Price Register IMO.

Why ?

robp

Lumen wrote: »

Electoral district? To what end? What does it matter?

The dysfunction in Ireland's property market has absolutely nothing to do with poor metrics.

A lot of people on the internet thought the PPR would stop people paying stupid money for property. That was and is a peculiar techno-utopian perspective.

Efficient markets generally require good information, good information is not sufficient. A residential property is so far away from an efficient financial instrument that marginally improved data quality would really make no difference.

Supply is the only thing that matters in this market, and not one extra house will be built if the PPR contains this data.

It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, polishing a turd, a distraction from the real issues.

It is not proposed as a solution to the housing problem, just as an aid for people looking at what is available.

mrknock

Funny fact, Irish auctioneers already seem to work with this metric:

https://www.ipav.ie/sites/default/files/ipav_residential_property_price_barometer_results_for_july-december_2017_web.pdf

"An extra feature of this IPAV survey is that it also
includes prices per square metre which enables
home buyers to compare the value for money
that they can achieve in terms of the spaciousness
of the homes. This can be especially important
in determining how the average price
compares with the size of home that is being
bought. "


Ronan Lyons also seems to agree .... https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/why-price-per-square-metre-matters-36093335.html

The UK stats office: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/articles/housepriceshowmuchdoesonesquaremetrecostinyourarea/2017-10-11

There is even a patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6141648A/en

mrknock

Lumen wrote: »

Electoral district? To what end? What does it matter?

The dysfunction in Ireland's property market has absolutely nothing to do with poor metrics.

A lot of people on the internet thought the PPR would stop people paying stupid money for property. That was and is a peculiar techno-utopian perspective.

Efficient markets generally require good information, good information is not sufficient. A residential property is so far away from an efficient financial instrument that marginally improved data quality would really make no difference.

Supply is the only thing that matters in this market, and not one extra house will be built if the PPR contains this data.

It's rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, polishing a turd, a distraction from the real issues.

Supply is not a problem. Plenty of empty properties around Dublin. Lack of metrics is the elephant in the room. Is the Estate Agent's dream. It is the developers dream.

PPR is a complete failure because it is the best example of NON-METRIC. It has been twisted and abused by most lawyers in the country. A country that paid millions to develop the Eircode, to feed civil servants healthy salaries, to cuddle government service providers ... to build a non-database system. An abuse of public money. There are so many mouths to feed, that we may as well all let this mess go on ... until the next crash.

Any serious government would be looking at providing quality metrics (like our neighbours in the UK). PPR, daft, estate agents (or even worse the media) are the shakers and movers of this country real estate misinformation. Any lack of metric is their win.

Bob24

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Can't you calculate it yourself with the information provided in the ad?

If you trust the size advertised by EAs you are making a great mistake.

Sometimes (rarely) it’s accurate enough, most of the time it’s inflated by 15-20%, and I’ve seen as much as 30-35%.

What we need is a regulatory framework to define how this is measured and enforce penalties for publishing data which doesn’t follow that framework.

Lumen

robp wrote: »

It is not proposed as a solution to the housing problem, just as an aid for people looking at what is available.

No, if you read mrknock's posts, e.g. the one two below yours, he is expecting this to make a real difference. Hence the level of rantiness.

Diarmuid

mrknock wrote: »

Supply is not a problem.

Seriously? I'm afraid that's far from the truth.

no.8

Stefan Prehistoric Domino wrote:

You know where the airport is!tra-la

Pipe down. No harm campaigning to do away with shoddy ways. People in Ireland are lambasted for wanting realistic changes. This is wrong.

The area in Sq m/Sq ft should be standard for the advertised property. I've noticed it myself when an agent didn't have a clue how large the overall property was but went on about the room numbers.

no.8

ted1 wrote:

The sq m is in the BER

Assuming it has a BER (E.G. Rental properties)

Lumen

no.8 wrote: »

Assuming it has a BER (E.G. Rental properties)

BER cert is required for rental property unless it's BER exempt, in which case that must be stated.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/243/made/en/print

Advertising of BER

12. (1) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—

(a) a new dwelling, the construction of which commences on or after 9 January 2013, or

(b) a dwelling that is in existence on or before 9 January 2013,

and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall ensure that the energy performance indicator of the current BER certificate for the dwelling is stated in any advertisements, where such advertisements are taken relating to the sale or letting of that dwelling.

Bob24

Also is there a standardised and enforced area measurement method for BERs?

Sleepy

Lumen wrote: »

Electoral district? To what end? What does it matter?

It's a decent measure that allows for pretty good geographic comparisons. Lat / Lng would be even better as any geographic breakdown desired could be extrapolated from that.

ted1 wrote: »

Why ?

The more dimensions of data available, the more potential for analysis.

The current PPR is so limited in data dimensions that very little analysis can actually be derived from it. Adding more dimensions would allow prospective buyers to more accurately (albeit still imperfectly) compare the asking price of a property to recent sales in the area they're buying in.

Obviously, supply is the main problem in our housing market, but in general, the more data available to a decision maker, the higher the quality of the decisions that individual can make.

4ensic15

mrknock wrote: »

Supply is not a problem. Plenty of empty properties around Dublin. Lack of metrics is the elephant in the room. Is the Estate Agent's dream. It is the developers dream.

If agents are required to include metrics on properties for sale, how does that cause the properties around Dublin to become occupied?