Inter-union talk | Equal Pay for Equal Work $$$See warning in OP$$$

byhookorbycrook

27061986a wrote: »

I agree
Perhaps the older teachers should sacrifice something.

We have done, thanks,.
CUTS SINCE CP1


• Loss in take-home pay of between 18% and 32% due to pay cuts; USC; pension levy; tax and PRSI increases.
• Serious cuts to allowances; withdrawal of qualification allowances (loss of €4,918 per year for post 2012 teachers with an honours degree)
• Still no overdue benchmarking payment made to Principals
• Pay cut of 5.5%-10% for those earning >€65,000, plus freeze of increments for three years, many losing more than the benefit of a Post of Responsibility (POR), but not losing the duties
• A freeze of all increments for between 3 months – 3 years depending on your pay-grade. Increments were not paid after the 3 months freeze! HRA broken.

• Additional pay cuts: 30,000- 6.1 % pay cut, 35,000- 5.2 % pay cut, 40,000-4.6% pay cut, 45,000- 4.1 % pay cut, 50,000- 3.7% pay cut.

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Thanks for backing up my point.

Taking schools out on strike for pay equalization will help him jot. If his salary is increased, but still has only 4 hours per week, how is he any better off?

22% of NQT are given fully time positions btw.

So you'll concede that 78% are not earning this 'starting salary' when they start?

salonfire

evolving_doors wrote: »

So you'll concede that 78% are not earning this 'starting salary' when they start?

Yes. And I, and I suspect many others, would happily see schools out on strike if it means that type of hours here and hours there nonsense is sorted out once and for all.

It is not good for the profession, the individual teachers and definitely not the kids in schools.

SligoBrewer

salonfire wrote: »

Yes. And I, and I suspect many others, would happily see schools out on strike if it means that type of hours here and hours there nonsense is sorted out once and for all.

It is not good for the profession, the individual teachers and definitely not the kids in schools.

+1 million

SligoBrewer

For the benefit of any people coming in taking a shot at teachers unions (The ASTI in particular because that's all I researched), I suggest reading this post.

Sir123

It's a pity INTO and TUI didn't have our backs in 2016. Maybe then we'd have it sorted once and for all. It's in the past, I'm going to leave it go.

I'm a very patient human being, a quality of a good teacher as they say, but I am fed up. I'm 100% certain that I will continue to feel this way if we continue being shoved to the side as the years pass.

This "talking" game is so annoying. The 27th April is still a few weeks away. Don't we know well that no concrete solution will be given in the near future. I see past 2021 if we continue to "talk" or maybe never if we continue a suspension of industrial action.

The point I'm trying to make is that the government might wait until we are literally on the picket line before they commit to anything. It is FG we're talking about.

km79

keoclassic wrote: »

Easter: unions meet, big hullabaloo in the media, strong words etc, threaten strikes but not before summer.....teachers are too professional to disrupt the exams.
May: more talking.
June: holidays....we can deal with this in September
September: More talks of strikes
October: ballot
Nov/Dec/jan: some sort of token Action.......cancellation of strikes to allow for talks
Feb/ March: teachers complain not enough being done.....infighting begins again.
April: unions convention's.

On off Rinse and repeat since 2007.

Into will buckle before summer holidays as per usual and that will be that

Creol1

I'm interested to see this discussion because I've tried in the past to see if there was a trade union forum on boards, and this is the first thread I have come across between union members about union matters.

I'm not a teacher but I work in a different area of the public service and there's only the one union representing my grade. I don't know a huge amount about the TUI/ASTI tensions but it seems regrettable that members of the same profession in the same workplace are divided by different unions; I'm wondering are there not ICTU rules regarding one union poaching members of another? Are they of relevance to the situation? I'm not making any accusations towards the TUI, I'm just curious.

TheDriver

Creol1 wrote: »

I'm interested to see this discussion because I've tried in the past to see if there was a trade union forum on boards, and this is the first thread I have come across between union members about union matters.

I'm not a teacher but I work in a different area of the public service and there's only the one union representing my grade. I don't know a huge amount about the TUI/ASTI tensions but it seems regrettable that members of the same profession in the same workplace are divided by different unions; I'm wondering are there not ICTU rules regarding one union poaching members of another? Are they of relevance to the situation? I'm not making any accusations towards the TUI, I'm just curious.

You're opening up a massive can of worms regarding why we can't be all members of the one union but in theory, yes, there should only be one. There's many out there who are unhappy with each of the 3 current unions and want another.

Creol1

TheDriver wrote: »

You're opening up a massive can of worms regarding why we can't be all members of the one union but in theory, yes, there should only be one. There's many out there who are unhappy with each of the 3 current unions and want another.

Fair enough. Thanks for the reply.

Wanderer78

judeboy101 wrote:

I'm proud of the fact that I've caught you out by exposing your lack of basic knowledge of your own and your children's educational history. You first claimed your kids had teachers for "12/13" years then you yourself changed your own educational story multiple times. A lack of basic knowledge about ones own journey is hardly the foundation on which to debate the current/future status of an entire education system.

There's a lot of very serious faults with our educational system, that actually shows little or no sign of changing, it's diabolical how teachers have been treated though, particularly the younger generations

deiseindublin

Icsics wrote: »

It will have to be all Unions together on this & let’s face it TUI have let us down before. What’s happened to the TUI grassroots movement? Emergency motion to be debated at conferences

TUI Grassroots is still very active and calling the union on all their inaction. I think it's today they are meeting at 2pm.

JPF82

Here are my thoughts as a recently qualified teacher (2015) who had worked previously as an accountant for close to a decade.

For me teaching is a calling, something I love. I love being in the classroom far more than I ever enjoyed my previous job. Why? Because I feel I make more of a difference, if only to some students. In fairness, not everyone enjoys business as a subject

Re: the high starting salary of 36,000. Yes comparatively high, if you are lucky enough to get full hours. I am yet to get full hours, but got my CID this school year. This year will be the first year I have earned over 30,000 since I left accounting. (My Salary then was double what I earn now). When I started as an accountant, my level of responsibility was low. The parts of clients accounts I did were of low importance and my work was well reviewed every day. My starting salary was typical graduate figure of 25,000. As soon as I got any responsibility within the first 6 months, that went to 32,000 and some small bonuses. Within a 18 months out of college, I was on over 40,000.

So a graduate teacher, I started on 9 hours to get my foot in the door of a school. Got a bit of cover work too and earned about 16,000 in my first year. Have a supportive wife so we could make ends meet. Responsibility wise, well I had the same responsibility level as my colleagues. I was teaching a 6th year exam class and two third year exam groups who would have the same expectation from me, with limited teaching experience, as they would from a teacher with 20 years experience earning 55,000 plus. No such thing as giving a new teacher less important students to develop their skill on. Year 2, I earned in the region of 22,000.


Now granted, holidays are a perk of the job. No doubt. My Easter has been great. I have got to correct close to 150 pages of students work completed by students the week before Easter and I wrote up eight essays based on questions I had created for them. I have also worked on a formative assessment survey to help me be a better teacher. When in school, my short school day starts at about 8.15 to 8.30 when I am in to get myself organised. I don't have my own room so I have to move around all over the school each day. My foot count app tells me anywhere between 5 to 7 km walked each school day. School ends at 4 and I'll do another hour or two before I head home. I know people work longer days than this, but just to show that schools isn't 9 til 3.30. I have had to deal with students who are being bullied, who have an alcoholic parent(s) etc etc. This can pop up at anytime and needs to be addressed urgently and with great sensitivity in many cases.

After school clubs don't run themselves. I work with sports teams and computer coding after school. I just help organising the matches and guide students in creating computer games and solving associated problems. Students school life would be much poorer without these less academic pursuits. Also, planning has started already for foreign trips for Easter 2019. A lot of planning goes into these which only those in school would see. I was never aware of this when I sat in a classroom as a student which is where many experts base their views on.

Teaching is not a desirable career anymore. I love it, but it is a non money motivation for me. (Not that I don't need the money). My wife and I spent my 2 years of teaching training and first 2 years of work being one rent increase away from being homeless. I would put my game face on and get into school and act like all was fine. I would have left teaching if it was all about the money for me. However, nearly all students I teach say they don't want to be teachers because they want to earn more money than what teaching offers. They know I was an accountant and do tell me I'm nuts to be a teacher. I tell them I love teaching and get even stranger looks.

Sorry for the long post. Not my most coherent work by any means, but just my thoughts / experiences.

km79

Great informative post from someone in the profession and affected so much by the issue
A rarity on this thread the last few days .

I’ll leave ye to it anyway . Won’t be posting here again . I’ll leave that to all the “experts” who went to school so know all about our working conditions .
Enjoy .

evolving_doors

JPF82 wrote: »

Here are my thoughts as a recently qualified teacher (2015) who had worked previously as an accountant for close to a decade.

For me teaching is a calling, something I love. I love being in the classroom far more than I ever enjoyed my previous job. Why? Because I feel I make more of a difference, if only to some students. In fairness, not everyone enjoys business as a subject

Re: the high starting salary of 36,000. Yes comparatively high, if you are lucky enough to get full hours. I am yet to get full hours, but got my CID this school year. This year will be the first year I have earned over 30,000 since I left accounting. (My Salary then was double what I earn now). When I started as an accountant, my level of responsibility was low. The parts of clients accounts I did were of low importance and my work was well reviewed every day. My starting salary was typical graduate figure of 25,000. As soon as I got any responsibility within the first 6 months, that went to 32,000 and some small bonuses. Within a 18 months out of college, I was on over 40,000.

So a graduate teacher, I started on 9 hours to get my foot in the door of a school. Got a bit of cover work too and earned about 16,000 in my first year. Have a supportive wife so we could make ends meet. Responsibility wise, well I had the same responsibility level as my colleagues. I was teaching a 6th year exam class and two third year exam groups who would have the same expectation from me, with limited teaching experience, as they would from a teacher with 20 years experience earning 55,000 plus. No such thing as giving a new teacher less important students to develop their skill on. Year 2, I earned in the region of 22,000.


Now granted, holidays are a perk of the job. No doubt. My Easter has been great. I have got to correct close to 150 pages of students work completed by students the week before Easter and I wrote up eight essays based on questions I had created for them. I have also worked on a formative assessment survey to help me be a better teacher. When in school, my short school day starts at about 8.15 to 8.30 when I am in to get myself organised. I don't have my own room so I have to move around all over the school each day. My foot count app tells me anywhere between 5 to 7 km walked each school day. School ends at 4 and I'll do another hour or two before I head home. I know people work longer days than this, but just to show that schools isn't 9 til 3.30. I have had to deal with students who are being bullied, who have an alcoholic parent(s) etc etc. This can pop up at anytime and needs to be addressed urgently and with great sensitivity in many cases.

After school clubs don't run themselves. I work with sports teams and computer coding after school. I just help organising the matches and guide students in creating computer games and solving associated problems. Students school life would be much poorer without these less academic pursuits. Also, planning has started already for foreign trips for Easter 2019. A lot of planning goes into these which only those in school would see. I was never aware of this when I sat in a classroom as a student which is where many experts base their views on.

Teaching is not a desirable career anymore. I love it, but it is a non money motivation for me. (Not that I don't need the money). My wife and I spent my 2 years of teaching training and first 2 years of work being one rent increase away from being homeless. I would put my game face on and get into school and act like all was fine. I would have left teaching if it was all about the money for me. However, nearly all students I teach say they don't want to be teachers because they want to earn more money than what teaching offers. They know I was an accountant and do tell me I'm nuts to be a teacher. I tell them I love teaching and get even stranger looks.

Sorry for the long post. Not my most coherent work by any means, but just my thoughts / experiences.

Well put. I think you've hit the nail on the head as regards the equal-pay-for-equal-work slogan in the underlined part above. Also it needs to be continuously mentioned about the unequal pay over the total career of a teacher, compared with pre-2011. It comes to about 100k iirc!
And also factor in the averaged pension.

byhookorbycrook

Also worth adding that many of the LPTs will have to live to over 93 (this has been calculated by the INTO , so not a figure I have just picked from the air.to get back what they will have paid into their pensions. You know, those pensions that cost the public so much?The ones we have to pay into whether we want to or not. The one I have been paying into since I was 19- unlike many in the private sector who don't start a pension until they are in their late 30s and then use to slap us in the face.

Creol1

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Also worth adding that many of the LPTs will have to live to over 93 (this has been calculated by the INTO , so not a figure I have just picked from the air.to get back what they will have paid into their pensions. You know, those pensions that cost the public so much?The ones we have to pay into whether we want to or not. The one I have been paying into since I was 19- unlike many in the private sector who don't start a pension until they are in their late 30s and then use to slap us in the face.

If that's the case, it's an extraordinary statistic; do you have the source for it as it could be relevant to other public sector workers too?

byhookorbycrook

Creol1 wrote: »

If that's the case, it's an extraordinary statistic; do you have the source for it as it could be relevant to other public sector workers too?

Yes, radio interview by John Boyle on Pat Kenny on Newstalk this morning.

rainbowtrout

Creol1 wrote: »

If that's the case, it's an extraordinary statistic; do you have the source for it as it could be relevant to other public sector workers too?

It would be relatively straightforward to calculate.

Making the assumption of full hours for a teaching career for simplicity. Work out how much a teacher is paid over those 40 odd years. More years of course for those that came in after 2004. Calculate how much is paid in via pension contributions. Again as those are calculated as a percentage it's fairly easy to work out.

Work out pension per year on retirement and divide into how much was paid in. I presume that it works out at about 25 years, for a person who worked full service on full hours and retires at 68 some time in the future.

Monotype

Comes to present value of €250,542.95 on the new scale for 40 years work, including the three pension deductions.

27061986a

I hope this ones not teaching maths

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0405/952315-education/

judeboy101

27061986a wrote: »

I hope this ones not teaching maths

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0405/952315-education/

€5.86x3x.57 is ≤ min wage

27061986a

......paid €5.86 for each Junior Cert paper she corrected.
At a rate of three papers per hour, she said she was not even making the minimum wage.

€5.86X3=€17.58=>minimum wage

r93kaey5p2izun

A subtle difference in use of language here I think, between being paid min wage versus making min wage. Anyway - rest assured she's not a Maths teacher. It's a point irrelevant to the thread either way.

I think the Minister's smarmy soundbites and efforts to deflect from the core issue are sickening. I think the game was up long ago when he stood in the Dail and falsely claimed that new entrant TDs were also subject to a new pay scale. He's so out of touch he can't even fake the usual politician level of insincere plámásing. I think his appointment as Minister sums up FG's dismissive attitude towards the whole sector. He doesn't care, he doesn't want to be there, he can't even fake it. Waiting around for further pointless talks is a waste of time. I hope ASTI and INTO will get balloting immediately and not wait around for any outcome of these "talks".

joebloggs32

27061986a wrote: »

......paid €5.86 for each Junior Cert paper she corrected.
At a rate of three papers per hour, she said she was not even making the minimum wage.

€5.86X3=€17.58=>minimum wage

She is falling into the trap of not considering gross v net income.
As this is work over and above your wage then it will accrue full stoppages of tax, pris, usc etc. That will eat up around 60% of the payment presuming she is earning over the standard rate cut off point, and thus she thinks it is below minimum wage.

27061986a

joebloggs32 wrote: »

She is falling into the trap of not considering gross v net income.
As this is work over and above your wage then it will accrue full stoppages of tax, pris, usc etc. That will eat up around 60% of the payment presuming she is earning over the standard rate cut off point, and thus she thinks it is below minimum wage.

we all have to pay taxes. welcome to society.

Sir123

27061986a wrote: »

we all have to pay taxes. welcome to society.

But not everyone pays a levy (a pension levy), that has nothing to do with your pension, and in reality, SEC work is non-pensionable anyway and we still have to pay a rate of 10.5% as well. So an additional 10.5% tax that others don't pay for being contraced to do work, in private sector especially, is highly unjustifiabe, in my opinion.

Yes we all pay taxes, but why are we paying this ludicrous tax on non-pensionable work, just because it's the public sector eh?

I can see why noone wants to correct or superintendent.

Outrageous so it is.

ted1

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

Je_suis_Jean I'm not interested in discussing it with you nor informing you of the facts. This isn't the place for it. There's countless other previous threads where it has been discussed at length. It's plain to anyone who is familiar with the facts you don't understand the issue at hand, given the little heart surgery story you used. In my opinion the only qualification needed to jump into the middle of a thread like this would be knowing the facts - no suggestion of academic qualifications or experience was made. But you think you know so go on ahead - it's your right to post here of course. I merely said I personally would be embarrassed to do similar in for example the Legal forum or the Health Sciences forum. Best of luck.

Tbh your post is pretty embarrassing, attacking the poster and ignoring legitimate questions.

Facts is teachers were bench marked, when the bench mark went down , teachers voted that new teachers would start on a lower salary.
Those teachers now want an increase to match existing teachers.

In no other industry do people start the same as existing staff, experience counts.

Graduate teachers are on far more than any other graduates.

For example The ESB Start their graduates on 31k ( with only 20 days leave per year ) that’s after 4-5 primary degree and a 2 years masters. Existing engineers would be on 50+k do you think that they should start on 50+k ?
There’s also engineers on over 100k who are based on old scales. Should all engineers be on that scale ?

ted1

Sir123 wrote: »

27061986a wrote: »

we all have to pay taxes. welcome to society.

But not everyone pays a levy (a pension levy), that has nothing to do with your pension, and in reality, SEC work is non-pensionable anyway and we still have to pay a rate of 10.5% as well. So an additional 10.5% tax that others don't pay for being contraced to do work, in private sector especially, is highly unjustifiabe, in my opinion.

Yes we all pay taxes, but why are we paying this ludicrous tax on non-pensionable work, just because it's the public sector eh?

I can see why noone wants to correct or superintendent.

Outrageous so it is.

Most people have to contribute towards their pension.
Teachers have one of the nest pensions in the country that’s worth roughly an extra 35k a year on top of their salary.

You should look into what someone working in the private sector would have to contribute to get a teachers pension

Creol1

ted1 wrote: »

Tbh your post is pretty embarrassing, attacking the poster and ignoring legitimate questions.

Facts is teachers were bench marked, when the bench mark went down , teachers voted that new teachers would start on a lower salary.
Those teachers now want an increase to match existing teachers.

In no other industry do people start the same as existing staff, experience counts.

Graduate teachers are on far more than any other graduates.

For example The ESB Start their graduates on 31k ( with only 20 days leave per year ) that’s after 4-5 primary degree and a 2 years masters. Existing engineers would be on 50+k do you think that they should start on 50+k ?
There’s also engineers on over 100k who are based on old scales. Should all engineers be on that scale ?

Newly recruited public servants aren't paid the same as existing staff, and they aren't asking to be. Experience is recognised through incremental pay increases. The issue isn't that new recruits are paid less, the entire payscale is less favourable, i.e., a post-2012 recruit who accrues 15 years' experience will be on less than someone recruited 15 years ago is now on with the same experience.