Inter-union talk | Equal Pay for Equal Work $$$See warning in OP$$$

judeboy101

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

What good deal did they get? Also, despite all rumours to the contrary, the third level members of TUI are the most militant. I used to believe this "third level sold us out" stuff too once, but then I actually got involved and got to know those involved. Believe me it couldn't be further from the truth.

How can it be democratic that a union with such a massive 2ndry contingent have a decision making body that doesn't reflect this?. Croke park 1, 2, lra, hra... They have all delivered for 3rd level . Not many 3rd level lecturers having to immigrate to Dubai.cp hrs have no effect on 3rd level the way they impact us.

joebloggs32

judeboy101 wrote: »

How can it be democratic that a union with such a massive 2ndry contingent have a decision making body that doesn't reflect this?. Croke park 1, 2, lra, hra... They have all delivered for 3rd level . Not many 3rd level lecturers having to immigrate to Dubai.cp hrs have no effect on 3rd level the way they impact us.

TUI executive is predominantly 2nd level.
If you are a TUI member look at your handbook. It tells you who each member of the executive is, what area they represent and where they work.
Its the same at congress. The 2nd level delegates far outnumber the 3rd level one.
Some people love to peddle the myth that the third level tail wags the dog!

deiseindublin

It's today TUI are meeting, yeah? Wonder when we'll hear more, although, on past form, I'm not very hopeful.

SligoBrewer

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's today TUI are meeting, yeah? Wonder when we'll hear more, although, on past form, I'm not very hopeful.

They've already a mandate to strike as well...

deiseindublin

Yes, that's true, but it seems obvious that they'd prefer if they didn't have one.

judeboy101

Nurses recommending a no vote

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0926/998113-health-service/

judeboy101

joebloggs32 wrote: »

TUI executive is predominantly 2nd level.
If you are a TUI member look at your handbook. It tells you who each member of the executive is, what area they represent and where they work.
Its the same at congress. The 2nd level delegates far outnumber the 3rd level one.
Some people love to peddle the myth that the third level tail wags the dog!

I count 11members (a majority) who are higher or further.

r93kaey5p2izun

judeboy101 wrote: »

I count 11members (a majority) who are higher or further.

Further Ed and Youthreach are in the same category as second level for their area. Third Level colleges are separate. If the members in an area choose to elect someone from FE/Youthreach to represent them then that's their choice. The majority of members in any of these areas are second level so they couldn't be outvoted by FE/Youthreach members - unless they choose not to bother voting while the non second level do but then again, that's a choice they're making. 5 out of 19 areas are Third Level only. The other 14 are all majority second level with some FE and Youthreach.

judeboy101

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

Further Ed and Youthreach are in the same category as second level for their area. Third Level colleges are separate. If the members in an area choose to elect someone from FE/Youthreach to represent them then that's their choice. The majority of members in any of these areas are second level so they couldn't be outvoted by FE/Youthreach members - unless they choose not to bother voting while the non second level do but then again, that's a choice they're making. 5 out of 19 areas are Third Level only. The other 14 are all majority second level with some FE and Youthreach.

Fe and youthreach do not hv same pay scale or allowance structure as teachers, am I right? If so my point stands that the tui exec has a majority of non secondary school teachers despite having a majority of members in the secondary school sector.

r93kaey5p2izun

judeboy101 wrote: »

Fe and youthreach do not hv same pay scale or allowance structure as teachers, am I right? If so my point stands that the tui exec has a majority of non secondary school teachers despite having a majority of members in the secondary school sector.

Most FE teachers are second level qualified. Many if not most of the FE centres are based in a second level school and teachers work between both. Your point stands that the executive is majority non second level, but is of little consequence imo since second level members have chosen to elect these non second level people to represent them. It's not something imposed on them. Your original assertion that it's undemocratic is wrong.

SligoBrewer

No recommendation from the TUI.

Strikes, and equality, aren’t going to get over the line.

joebloggs32

I would like the vote to only be put to new entrant teachers and let the rest of us follow their decision. I know there is no mechanism however for this to happen.
LPTs must show up at their branch meetings and let their feelings be heard before we ballot.

deiseindublin

This no recommendation thing sends me over the edge, p*ss or get off the pot, surely they have enough gumption to do that. My reading is that they don't have the fight in them, but are equally afraid of the backlash from membership if they admit that.

WHY is it even going to a vote? There was a mandate to strike is LPTs didn't get equality. We don't need to keep voting.

deiseindublin

Reading their gormless statement and all this talk of continuing the fight, they have more or less called the outcome of the ballot.

evolving_doors

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I would like the vote to only be put to new entrant teachers and let the rest of us follow their decision. I know there is no mechanism however for this to happen.
LPTs must show up at their branch meetings and let their feelings be heard before we ballot.

It's the profession as a whole that must decide together what's good for the profession. An inequality for NQT's hurts the profession overall, not just one particular cohort.

About 5 times alone on the radio this week I've heard Ivan Yeats, Matt Cooper, Pat Kenny, usual ISME public sector bashers etc. trot out "It was the Older teachers who threw the younger ones under the bus"...
So let's not prove them right by playing along with the divide and conquer game. That will only go in one direction.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Nurses recommending a no vote

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0926/998113-health-service/

Pipped at the post.... againnnnnnnnnn

joebloggs32

evolving_doors wrote: »

It's the profession as a whole that must decide together what's good for the profession. An inequality for NQT's hurts the profession overall, not just one particular cohort.

About 5 times alone on the radio this week I've heard Ivan Yeats, Matt Cooper, Pat Kenny, usual ISME public sector bashers etc. trot out "It was the Older teachers who threw the younger ones under the bus"...
So let's not prove them right by playing along with the divide and conquer game. That will only go in one direction.

Yeah, you are spot on about the spin from cooper et al.
What worries me is that if people dont see the LPTs at the meetings then they may feel they are not worth fighting for.
What many forget is that iften LPTs cant make the meetings as they have to attend their workshops, train teams etc or even have a second job.

evolving_doors

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Yeah, you are spot on about the spin from cooper et al.
What worries me is that if people dont see the LPTs at the meetings then they may feel they are not worth fighting for.
What many forget is that iften LPTs cant make the meetings as they have to attend their workshops, train teams etc or even have a second job.

Timetable is just Jam Packed compared to the past. You'd be jacked tired by the time you get home. It's a bit more manageable when you've been teaching a few years and know what's what and have time in the evenings.

joebloggs32

evolving_doors wrote: »

Timetable is just Jam Packed compared to the past. You'd be jacked tired by the time you get home. It's a bit more manageable when you've been teaching a few years and know what's what and have time in the evenings.

And thats about when your house is invaded by some little people to gobble up that time!

SligoBrewer

evolving_doors wrote: »

Timetable is just Jam Packed compared to the past. You'd be jacked tired by the time you get home. It's a bit more manageable when you've been teaching a few years and know what's what and have time in the evenings.

It’s worth a lot of money and that should motivate anyone.

People will give about the unions but then fail to be active members.

mtoutlemonde

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I would like the vote to only be put to new entrant teachers and let the rest of us follow their decision. I know there is no mechanism however for this to happen.
LPTs must show up at their branch meetings and let their feelings be heard before we ballot.

They let their voices be heard when they headed over to TUI two years ago. They have shown the mé féinism. Long standing teachers were down a days pay and delays in increments. It will be hard to start the fight again.

mtoutlemonde

SligoBrewer wrote: »

It’s worth a lot of money and that should motivate anyone.

People will give about the unions but then fail to be active members.

Very true. If it were an anonymous forum over on VFT where they keep blaming the unions ... I wouldn't be long telling them that we are the union. If we don't turn up to meetings, we should not be giving out - it's similar to not voting in a general election or referendum .,, you don't have a voice.

r93kaey5p2izun

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Very true. If it were an anonymous forum over on VFT where they keep blaming the unions ... I wouldn't be long telling them that we are the union. If we don't turn up to meetings, we should not be giving out - it's similar to not voting in a general election or referendum .,, you don't have a voice.

Just as many tell them exactly that as complain. The lack of anonymity isn't a problem. I really don't see the "blame the union" vibe as being particularly prevalent on VfT at all.

judeboy101

Johanna Wet Carpet wrote: »

Most FE teachers are second level qualified. Many if not most of the FE centres are based in a second level school and teachers work between both. Your point stands that the executive is majority non second level, but is of little consequence imo since second level members have chosen to elect these non second level people to represent them. It's not something imposed on them. Your original assertion that it's undemocratic is wrong.

Unless the areas where they are in have been gerrymandered to produce such outcomes. This is a union that voted for strike if equality wasn't achieved but is now balloting members on a deal that further enshrines inequality without recommending rejection.

evolving_doors

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

They let their voices be heard when they headed over to TUI two years ago. They have shown the mé féinism. Long standing teachers were down a days pay and delays in increments. It will be hard to start the fight again.

In fairness though that wasn't all LPT's. Nobody in our school crossed over to the TUI.

Was there ever an upshot to that, Pay a fine to the ASTI and cancel TUI membership was it?

km79

evolving_doors wrote: »

In fairness though that wasn't all LPT's. Nobody in our school crossed over to the TUI.

Was there ever an upshot to that, Pay a fine to the ASTI and cancel TUI membership was it?

Yes
Rejoin for free last summer

Also anyone who left to avoid striking but didn't join TUI was also allowed rejoin without penalty

Win win for all of them
We were the fools

SligoBrewer

km79 wrote: »

Yes
Rejoin for free last summer

Also anyone who left to avoid striking but didn't join TUI was also allowed rejoin without penalty

Win win for all of them
We were the fools

Thanks for striking for LPTs. It's good to know that the majority of my fellow union members had our back.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

In fairness though that wasn't all LPT's. Nobody in our school crossed over to the TUI.

Was there ever an upshot to that, Pay a fine to the ASTI and cancel TUI membership was it?

km79 wrote: »

Yes
Rejoin for free last summer

Also anyone who left to avoid striking but didn't join TUI was also allowed rejoin without penalty

Win win for all of them
We were the fools

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one

I sympathise with LPTs and often look at my payslip and think about an LPTs payslip and wonder how I would survive - probably not.

I was in a school a few years ago where everyone was out for themselves and a big cohort joined/transferred to TUI including management.

if I were to get a job in an ETB, I would seriously consider going without a union than join the spineless TUI.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

Yes
Rejoin for free last summer

Also anyone who left to avoid striking but didn't join TUI was also allowed rejoin without penalty

Win win for all of them
We were the fools

No we weren't fools. We had integrity and guts,those people are spineless. The argument was that ASTI needed its members back,needed the money. And I get that but there should have been a penalty. And I wouldn't be relying on their ilk to keep up the fight for equality.

All the more reason why we must continue to have integrity and guts,even if that makes us seem like fools.

deiseindublin

Will there ever be any rationale given to last nights TUI decision? Surely a few opposed the ballot with a strike mandate already existing?