Inter-union talk | Equal Pay for Equal Work $$$See warning in OP$$$

acequion

deiseindublin wrote: »

Will there ever be any rationale given to last nights TUI decision? Surely a few opposed the ballot with a strike mandate already existing?

Well,here is Eddie Conlon of TUI Grassroots response,copied and pasted from facebbook and here also is a link to his excellent letter in today's Irish Times,

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/two-tier-public-pay-system-1.3642460

TUI Executive Disgraces Itself

The TUI Executive has decided to put the proposals on new entrants to ballot without a recommendation. The ridiculous statement on the website says very clearly: "that the measures do not deliver pay equality and will not tackle the recruitment and retention crisis currently afflicting second level schools." Did you get that: "do not deliver pay equality". So we have not achieved equal pay. So why is the Executive not opposing these proposals which will institutionalise unequal pay. There was an awful lot of rhetoric from the EC and our past president at Congress about delivering equal pay now. They have failed. Failed utterly.

Our current president says "Irrespective of the choice members make in the ballot, pay equality will remain the union’s main priority until it is secured.". What utter rubbish. If these proposal are accepted that will be the end of the pay equality campaign. And new teachers and lecturers will be left with suppressed entry pay.

Its up to us now to get organised to defeat these proposals. We will be having a Grassroots meeting on Monday. I will post and email details.


As for whether there will ever be a rationale, the problem is that there are a frightening number of right wing foot soldiers in the executives of the three unions ie people who will not rock the boat,who always urge what they call the "calm approach" while branding activists as reactionaries and militants. Those people have been responsible for the constant TUI and all eventual ASTI capitulations and have caused many an ordinary member to switch off feeling that unions are useless.

That's what we're up against but thank god for the Eddie Conlons of this world.

SligoBrewer

Militant fence sitting is a dangerous thing.

deiseindublin

Yeah, had read that earlier, I'm talking about TUI EC though. Surely they don't really think this nonsense is ok?

acequion

deiseindublin wrote: »

Yeah, had read that earlier, I'm talking about TUI EC though. Surely they don't really think this nonsense is ok?

But you see they do,deise. These people think they're the essence of reason and some of them are very good public speakers and can quite ably convince their listeners that they're right. They frequently take to the podium at convention so all convention goers will have heard them pontificate. It really is quite scary how the preposterous gets passed off as acceptable, how fear, patience, patriotism,responsibility to our students,whatever works, is appealed to and tapped into. In my view these are the very kind of people that unions don't need,yet Irish trade unions, albeit the public sector ones,are full of them.

Sir123

To say I'm disappointed with TUI and INTO not giving a recommendation on how to vote is an understatement. I really thought this time that a strong No would have come from these two unions at this stage (nearly 9 years later).

Does anyone know when ASTI CEC meeting is going to be taking place? I reckon tui and into's decision could have an impact on how asti decide their stance.

I feel worse as an LPT after this nonsense than I did previously. It's like we continue to be kicked to the curb by government and continue to feel less important than our colleagues for the work that we do. When will it stop? Or will it ever?

judeboy101

Sir123 wrote: »

To say I'm disappointed with TUI and INTO not giving a recommendation on how to vote is an understatement. I really thought this time that a strong No would have come from these two unions at this stage (nearly 9 years later).

Does anyone know when ASTI CEC meeting is going to be taking place? I reckon tui and into's decision could have an impact on how asti decide their stance.

I feel worse as an LPT after this nonsense than I did previously. It's like we continue to be kicked to the curb by government and continue to feel less important than our colleagues for the work that we do. When will it stop? Or will it ever?

Tonite or next fri

deiseindublin

Is it ever published what way each member voted? It should be available. I'd prefer to know who was on what side, to make sure I could campaign for a kind of any but campaign.

mtoutlemonde

Sir123 wrote: »

To say I'm disappointed with TUI and INTO not giving a recommendation on how to vote is an understatement. I really thought this time that a strong No would have come from these two unions at this stage (nearly 9 years later).

Does anyone know when ASTI CEC meeting is going to be taking place? I reckon tui and into's decision could have an impact on how asti decide their stance.

I feel worse as an LPT after this nonsense than I did previously. It's like we continue to be kicked to the curb by government and continue to feel less important than our colleagues for the work that we do. When will it stop? Or will it ever?

The INTO are spineless and the TUI always follow their stance. If I was a TUI member who was also an LPT, I would be cancelling my membership with a strongly worded letter.

Just wondering if this did happen and the people who moved to secure CIDs/increments would they come back with their tails between their legs to the ASTI and get away it i.e. without penalties????

deiseindublin wrote: »

Is it ever published what way each member voted? It should be available. I'd prefer to know who was on what side, to make sure I could campaign for a kind of any but campaign.

Why should they be? Surely that wouldn't be democratic. Do you see what way people vote in general elections?

I've said it before, when there was a campaign, LPTs/NQTs weren't long jumping ship to the spineless TUI and they are now realising that they may have their increment/CID but they will never achieve equality. Pre2011 teachers took the hit and got a kick in the teeth for their attempts at oequality??? Will it happen again? I would have to seriously think about.

r93kaey5p2izun

Why wouldn't it be democratic to see how CEC members vote?? Just like how we can see how our TDs vote.

deiseindublin

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Why should they be? Surely that wouldn't be democratic. Do you see what way people vote in general elections?

Because I'd like to know what way the CEC are voting and who, if anybody, on there is representing my opinion.

mtoutlemonde

deiseindublin wrote: »

Because I'd like to know what way the CEC are voting and who, if anybody, on there is representing my opinion.

Apologies, I didn't know it was CEC members you were talking about. Yes I do agree, it would definitely show who was for equality and who weren't.

Inspector Coptoor

ASTI CEC is October 13th

judeboy101

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

ASTI CEC is October 13th

Id be delighted but shocked if they recommended No.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

Id be delighted but shocked if they recommended No.

And I'll be disgusted if the recommendation is anything other than a resounding NO.

But let's not forget that ASTI memebers are split down the middle 50/50 between the fighters and the accepters of crumbs. Every crucial vote in recent times in CEC and at national level has reflected that. So I expect this one to be no different.

As for publishing how CEC representatives vote. I'd be all for it. Votes at CEC,like at convention, are a show of hands so no secrecy. Logistically it may be time consuming though, as names would have to be recorded and time is generally very tight at these meetings.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

And I'll be disgusted if the recommendation is anything other than a resounding NO.

But let's not forget that ASTI memebers are split down the middle 50/50 between the fighters and the accepters of crumbs. Every crucial vote in recent times in CEC and at national level has reflected that. So I expect this one to be no different.

As for publishing how CEC representatives vote. I'd be all for it. Votes at CEC,like at convention, are a show of hands so no secrecy. Logistically it may be time consuming though, as names would have to be recorded and time is generally very tight at these meetings.

It'll be no or no recommendation, they've nothing to lose by voting no. They know by now tui and into won't strike with us. And we will never strike alone again.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

It'll be no or no recommendation, they've nothing to lose by voting no. They know by now tui and into won't strike with us. And we will never strike alone again.

Don't be so fast :pac: The ASTI voters are well used to being out in the cold, in every sense of the phrase.

deiseindublin

Yes, fair dues to ASTI, they did stand up to be counted, and on their own, but only until the anti democracy crowd stood in. I'm not ASTI but it baffles me that such an undemocratic loophole is there in the constitution.

judeboy101

evolving_doors wrote: »

Don't be so fast :pac: The ASTI voters are well used to being out in the cold, in every sense of the phrase.

Krispy Kreme doughnuts and hot coffee on a picket line in dec, a man can dream

acequion

deiseindublin wrote: »

Yes, fair dues to ASTI, they did stand up to be counted, and on their own, but only until the anti democracy crowd stood in. I'm not ASTI but it baffles me that such an undemocratic loophole is there in the constitution.

And the irony is that that loophole is actually meant to be democratic.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

And the irony is that that loophole is actually meant to be democratic.

How many members does it take to use this option?

Icsics

During the last strike the LPTs in my school all left Asti to join TUI. In recent years most of the new teachers are 'non union'. I have yet to meet an LPT at a branch meeting. So while this latest Govt stroke isn't fair & isn't equality, are enough teachers willing to say no??

km79

Icsics wrote: »

During the last strike the LPTs in my school all left Asti to join TUI. In recent years most of the new teachers are 'non union'. I have yet to meet an LPT at a branch meeting. So while this latest Govt stroke isn't fair & isn't equality, are enough teachers willing to say no??

This is also my experience

deiseindublin

I wouldn't be voting NO for any particular teacher or LPT so I don't really care if they are at the meetings or not. I'll be voting NO to safeguard my career from further decimation of pay and conditions, so a more holistic level.

mvron

deiseindublin wrote: »

I wouldn't be voting NO for any particular teacher or LPT so I don't really care if they are at the meetings or not. I'll be voting NO to safeguard my career from further decimation of pay and conditions, so a more holistic level.

Why shouldn't they be at the meetings? I understand the graft to get hours up, I've done it, but why isn't it the norm that LPTs are at local meetings on an ongoing basis? I have done this for (almost) decades with no expectation of my issues getting addressed so why aren't our younger members as engaged as one might expect?
Again, no judgement, just a question

Starkystark

mvron wrote: »

Why shouldn't they be at the meetings? I understand the graft to get hours up, I've done it, but why isn't it the norm that LPTs are at local meetings on an ongoing basis? I have done this for (almost) decades with no expectation of my issues getting addressed so why aren't our younger members as engaged as one might expect?
Again, no judgement, just a question

I’m an LPT. This might be just my case. There’s absolutely no advertisement of branch meetings in my school (all members are ASTI). Whenever we ask when the next branch meeting is - all we’re ever met with seems to be a question of why do you want to know from more established members of staff. Branch meetings details seem to be top secret.

I myself have emailed ASTI inquiring about branch meetings to be later contacted by an industrial rep for the area I’m working in. And AGAIN no straight answer and that he’d get on to my branch.

judeboy101

Starkystark wrote: »

I’m an LPT. This might be just my case. There’s absolutely no advertisement of branch meetings in my school (all members are ASTI). Whenever we ask when the next branch meeting is - all we’re ever met with seems to be a question of why do you want to know from more established members of staff. Branch meetings details seem to be top secret.

I myself have emailed ASTI inquiring about branch meetings to be later contacted by an industrial rep for the area I’m working in. And AGAIN no straight answer and that he’d get on to my branch.

Same here, no mailing list, no txt alert, no notice on the board until the day before the meeting. Branch organisation is very hit and miss.

evolving_doors

Icsics wrote: »

During the last strike the LPTs in my school all left Asti to join TUI. In recent years most of the new teachers are 'non union'. I have yet to meet an LPT at a branch meeting. So while this latest Govt stroke isn't fair & isn't equality, are enough teachers willing to say no??

I get that they need a visible presence, but I always thought it was the school rep's role to bring members' issues to the branch meetings!

acequion

deiseindublin wrote: »

I wouldn't be voting NO for any particular teacher or LPT so I don't really care if they are at the meetings or not. I'll be voting NO to safeguard my career from further decimation of pay and conditions, so a more holistic level.

I totally agree with this. In fact I'll be honest and say that I don't always have sympathy for NQTs for various reasons. But then when I was an NQT I was quite obnoxious thinking I knew everything so who am I to judge! But I do feel they should be actively involved and at all their meetings.

But my principal motivation would be the integrity of the profession. We just cannot keep allowing the Govt of the day to destroy it. And unions also desperately need a victory to convince members that they actually function.

Starkystark wrote: »

I’m an LPT. This might be just my case. There’s absolutely no advertisement of branch meetings in my school (all members are ASTI). Whenever we ask when the next branch meeting is - all we’re ever met with seems to be a question of why do you want to know from more established members of staff. Branch meetings details seem to be top secret.

I myself have emailed ASTI inquiring about branch meetings to be later contacted by an industrial rep for the area I’m working in. And AGAIN no straight answer and that he’d get on to my branch.

This is actually shocking and further proof of the disconnect between the union and its grassroots. And all the more reason why we need a victory as I've stated above.Being in a well unionised school with a conscientious rep and myself a CEC member, its just hard to imagine how switched off members are in other schools. It's alarming and very discouraging.

I would advise anyone in that position to get on to their area rep and make a fuss. Such issues need to be highlighted. The worrying thing is that there are schools without reps and branches without branch secretaries and I do understand why people would shy away from even more unpaid work whatever the cause. But without a functioning union we are cannon fodder.

Cheese Wagstaff

I understand fully the argument regarding LPTs being more involved in regard to branch meetings etc. I get it, I do.

On the other hand however, there have been several ballots that have given a mandate for industrial action if pay parity is not reached. What are they waiting for? I'd also iterate that it's a little bit unfair to say that voicing your opinion through a ballot is no longer enough to get the message across. It's like saying it was the fault of South African people that apartheid lasted for so long, because they didn't protest enough.

It's obvious that there is a huge disparity going on, why does it have to be rammed down their throats ad infinitum in order for it to be seen?

Sir123

Cheese Wagstaff wrote: »

I understand fully the argument regarding LPTs being more involved in regard to branch meetings etc. I get it, I do.

On the other hand however, there have been several ballots that have given a mandate for industrial action if pay parity is not reached. What are they waiting for? I'd also iterate that it's a little bit unfair to say that voicing your opinion through a ballot is no longer enough to get the message across. It's like saying it was the fault of South African people that apartheid lasted for so long, because they didn't protest enough.

It's obvious that there is a huge disparity going on, why does it have to be rammed down their throats ad infinitum in order for it to be seen?

I do agree, TUI and INTO made a ballot for strike action while also balloting members on PSSA. Members rejected the PSSA, 80% plus and overwhelmingly agreed on industrial action similarly. But now look, those two unions in particular do not give a recommendation to members for this so called "deal" and would love members to accept it. The mind boggles.

These two unions in particular are afraid of an increment freeze for their members and a few days of industrial action. I'm ASTI and if this 'deal', I use that word loosley, passes in any respect I'm so leaving them. Enough is enough. TUI and INTO's press release last week really let us down big time. We need to be all in this together in an ideal world.