6 year old unable to join club

Rossi7

robinph wrote: »

Badly expressed I guess. It's not that training is irrelevant, its that you have to not let them think they are training. Primarily it has to be fun.

As for the parents getting involved being glorified baby sitters, well probably. The main thing there is that the club isn't used as a glorified babysitter. Force the parents to get involved, show them the "training"  that is done, get them working with the other age groups and not just their own offspring, send them on coaching courses.

Which is pretty much the point I was making, give them the coaching they need. The clubs and kids further down the line will benefit more from it.
I'm not saying compete with football or GAA clubs, but why not have the same structures in place that will reap athletics the awards of future stars that football and GAA have.

Tombo2001

There are swings and roundabouts with the current system but again this business of comparing it with the GAA is unreasonable.

Also, it is seeing things with a Dublin lens.

Believe it or not, kids in Kerry or Donegal frequently find themselve travelling a long way to play games.

You get rid of intercounty system, and just play within the county like the GAA does, then you might find that clubs in say Longford or Sligo dont have much competition.

RayCun

I've realized the reason this annoys me so much is that I am always hearing, from the parents of young kids, "Sorry, x can't do that this weekend, s/he has a match" Sometimes it's a competition they are missing, sometimes it is training.

So the idea that athletics is some sort of treadmill of endless competition, while other sports only get the kids together for a chance to pick dandelions and engage in creative play... :rolleyes:

And if you think athletics coaches put pressure on kids to compete, it is nothing compared to the pressure on kids in team sports, who are told that if they miss matches or training they're off the team.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

I've realized the reason this annoys me so much is that I am always hearing, from the parents of young kids, "Sorry, x can't do that this weekend, s/he has a match" Sometimes it's a competition they are missing, sometimes it is training.

So the idea that athletics is some sort of treadmill of endless competition, while other sports only get the kids together for a chance to pick dandelions and engage in creative play... :rolleyes:

And if you think athletics coaches put pressure on kids to compete, it is nothing compared to the pressure on kids in team sports, who are told that if they miss matches or training they're off the team.

Did you ever think the kid made the decision?
I don't make the decision what matches my kids play when they clash with other sports, they pick them.

Hurrache

RayCun wrote: »

And if you think athletics coaches put pressure on kids to compete, it is nothing compared to the pressure on kids in team sports, who are told that if they miss matches or training they're off the team.

I don't think that's a far comparison. Kids love to mess and play, and in a post above it was said that you need an extra person to stop them doing so for a track & field event. With team sports they get to 'play' with their mates and everything is less regimented. Pretty much every kid in my athletics club when I was a kid left before they got to their mid/late teens, nothing to do with parents. Most, including myself, done so to play a team sport before returning when much older.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

Did you ever think the kid made the decision?
I don't make the decision what matches my kids play when they clash with other sports, they pick them.

But they may pick the match knowing that if they don't pick the match this weekend, they won't be on the team next weekend. But the athletics coach isn't going to tell them they can't run in the Dublin championships because they didn't run in the league.

RayCun

Hurrache wrote: »

I don't think that's a far comparison. Kids love to mess and play, and in a post above it was said that you need an extra person to stop them doing so for a track & field event. With team sports they get to 'play' with their mates and everything is less regimented. Pretty much every kid in my athletics club when I was a kid left before they got to their mid/late teens, nothing to do with parents. Most, including myself, done so to play a team sport before returning when much older.

A lot of the kids who are in our club at 8, 10, 12... aren't there at 11, 13, 16, there's always a drop-off.
But the kids who are still in the club, at 14/15 - when they were 10/11, they were doing other sports and activities as well, and now they mostly just do athletics.

I don't think athletics is particularly regimented compared to other sports. Football training is more complicated than throwing a ball into a pack of kids and letting them chase it, after all. With any sport, if you have a coach trying to do something more technical with one kid, you want another coach to keep an eye on everyone else.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

But they may pick the match knowing that if they don't pick the match this weekend, they won't be on the team next weekend. But the athletics coach isn't going to tell them they can't run in the Dublin championships because they didn't run in the league.

It doesn't work that way under 10 down anyhow.

Also kids would usually play two different sports on a sat, athletics rules this out, as their meets are a full day for 3 mins of activity. Kids dont like missing more than one thing.

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

It doesn't work that way under 10 down anyhow.

Also kids would usually play two different sports on a sat, athletics rules this out, as their meets are a full day for 3 mins of activity. Kids dont like missing more than one thing.

There isn't a meet every weekend though, far from it. I agree with Ray, there is far less pressure in athletics, and the reason for that is the knowledge that we have a niche sport that is stripped of all the bells and whistles that attract kids to team sports - the group camaraderie, the lack of personal blame for failure, the scoring of points and goals, and the constant competition of games every weekend. Athletics is a lonely pursuit by comparison, and any athletics coach getting on to parents demanding attendance at events would be laughed out of it.

I've been a junior soccer coach, and the behaviour of 'some' parents is frequently deplorable. GAA has a worse reputation again. Nothing to do with the sport in itself: it's just that the GAA is top dog. People feel they can do as they please. But as for parents being involved in training, once the roles and duties are clearly defined, there shouldn't be a problem.

As I run through Tymon park and see little kids being coached in gaelic football and hurling, the impression I get is that is really regimented. Kids as young as 8 being yelled at by coaches in that incessant way - "do it, do it, chase back, close him down, back in position" - a constant haranguing that to my mind is totally inappropriate with kids that young.

SligoBrewer

davedanon wrote: »

There isn't a meet every weekend though, far from it. I agree with Ray, there is far less pressure in athletics, and the reason for that is the knowledge that we have a niche sport that is stripped of all the bells and whistles that attract kids to team sports - the group camaraderie, the lack of personal blame for failure, the scoring of points and goals, and the constant competition of games every weekend. Athletics is a lonely pursuit by comparison, and any athletics coach getting on to parents demanding attendance at events would be laughed out of it.

I've been a junior soccer coach, and the behaviour of 'some' parents is frequently deplorable. GAA has a worse reputation again. Nothing to do with the sport in itself: it's just that the GAA is top dog. People feel they can do as they please. But as for parents being involved in training, once the roles and duties are clearly defined, there shouldn't be a problem.

As I run through Tymon park and see little kids being coached in gaelic football and hurling, the impression I get is that is really regimented. Kids as young as 8 being yelled at by coaches in that incessant way - "do it, do it, chase back, close him down, back in position" - a constant haranguing that to my mind is totally inappropriate with kids that young.

I feel bad doing it when I'm coaching my 14/16 year olds in school at their team sports tbf. Kids don't like being shouted at.

RayCun

Cross country meets last a couple of hours. Kids have one race, and can leave straight afterwards.

Track meets go on all day, but the only reason for a kid to be there all day is if they are doing multiple events or getting through heats. Or they are unlucky enough to be the child of a coach...

rom

RayCun wrote: »

Can you imagine going on the soccer forum and telling people that you are going to wait until your kids are 12 before sending them to a club? After all, by then the pitches and goals won't seem so big, and they'll be tough enough for the crunching tackles...

Honestly I would think its more of a mental thing than a physical thing. If they are in a team sport there is a strong probability that they will end up winning a game or two now and then. Mentally this does wonders for them.

Take XC from a young child perspective. You mean that they will run lots of races and always be mid pack or towards the back. In young kids there is winning and losing.

My kids ask me about my races and did I win x big race etc when it could be big numbers in the race (not taking away from the point that I am average). If I came first in the local parkrun that would be a huge deal but top 100s in a big marathon would mean nothing to them.

I love the sport and want my kids to too. There is a big reason why kids in teens drop off more so than team sports. In a stage of their life where they are very self conscious there are less ups than downs.

Athletes in Dublin do have a big advantage when it comes to meets. Athletes who are from more rural areas would be on the road every weekend.

Just checked a successful athletics club at under age here. They have on their application form that if you are selected for a team you must compete. :rolleyes:

This is not a discussion on if team sports are better for kids or anything like that more that there are issues with athletics that need to be identified. IMHO there should be no individual medals in many events for kids especially XC, longer relays. Just have team medals. The better ones on the team are more likely to stick with the sport if they have people who share the same goal. The weaker members will have something to aspire to.

average_runner

davedanon wrote: »

There isn't a meet every weekend though, far from it. I agree with Ray, there is far less pressure in athletics, and the reason for that is the knowledge that we have a niche sport that is stripped of all the bells and whistles that attract kids to team sports - the group camaraderie, the lack of personal blame for failure, the scoring of points and goals, and the constant competition of games every weekend. Athletics is a lonely pursuit by comparison, and any athletics coach getting on to parents demanding attendance at events would be laughed out of it.

I've been a junior soccer coach, and the behaviour of 'some' parents is frequently deplorable. GAA has a worse reputation again. Nothing to do with the sport in itself: it's just that the GAA is top dog. People feel they can do as they please. But as for parents being involved in training, once the roles and duties are clearly defined, there shouldn't be a problem.

As I run through Tymon park and see little kids being coached in gaelic football and hurling, the impression I get is that is really regimented. Kids as young as 8 being yelled at by coaches in that incessant way - "do it, do it, chase back, close him down, back in position" - a constant haranguing that to my mind is totally inappropriate with kids that young.

Talking to parents last night, they admit it's a massive commitment for the athletics meet for their daughters. They are under 10. They will do it but alot of meets over the next 6 weeks. Luckily the daughters love their athletics along with their gaa.

As for the pressure thats very untrue for under 8 down especially in gaa as they dont record the scores in the games. Think its the same under 10.

There is obviously a problem but people rather knock down other sports than solve the problem.

davedanon

average_runner wrote: »

Talking to parents last night, they admit it's a massive commitment for the athletics meet for their daughters. They are under 10. They will do it but alot of meets over the next 6 weeks. Luckily the daughters love their athletics along with their gaa.

As for the pressure thats very untrue for under 8 down especially in gaa as they dont record the scores in the games. Think its the same under 10.

There is obviously a problem but people rather knock down other sports than solve the problem.

If you're referring to my post, then you're either being disingenuous, or lazy, or you didn't read it properly. I didn't run down any other sports. It's all part of the same syndrome. Shouty, angry parents and hectoring coaches. A junior game in any sport is a cacophony of shouting and roaring. I don't know what you do about it, but there's evidently something wrong when a grown adult abuses A) a player, or the referee. Both of which I experienced, along with being abused at great volume by a young fella's dad about 20 feet from the opposition team/manager/parents, because his kid had "ONLY GOT 8 MINUTES", of a 20 minute game. I made a point that every kid got at least a full half in every game, no exceptions. He had obviously been timing his kid's game time. After that I brought my Garmin to every game. Me and some of the parents agreed afterward that in general he was a bit of a psychopath.

After I gave up coaching, he took over the team.

ultrapercy

rom wrote: »

Honestly I would think its more of a mental thing than a physical thing. If they are in a team sport there is a strong probability that they will end up winning a game or two now and then. Mentally this does wonders for them.

Take XC from a young child perspective. You mean that they will run lots of races and always be mid pack or towards the back. In young kids there is winning and losing.

My kids ask me about my races and did I win x big race etc when it could be big numbers in the race (not taking away from the point that I am average). If I came first in the local parkrun that would be a huge deal but top 100s in a big marathon would mean nothing to them.

I love the sport and want my kids to too. There is a big reason why kids in teens drop off more so than team sports. In a stage of their life where they are very self conscious there are less ups than downs.

Athletes in Dublin do have a big advantage when it comes to meets. Athletes who are from more rural areas would be on the road every weekend.

Just checked a successful athletics club at under age here. They have on their application form that if you are selected for a team you must compete. :rolleyes:

This is not a discussion on if team sports are better for kids or anything like that more that there are issues with athletics that need to be identified. IMHO there should be no individual medals in many events for kids especially XC, longer relays. Just have team medals. The better ones on the team are more likely to stick with the sport if they have people who share the same goal. The weaker members will have something to aspire to.

A big problem in all sports and indeed society at large is adults projecting their own insecurities onto children. Childten are much more savy and resilient than often they are given credit for by their less mature elders. Children from a very young age realise that there are winners and losers in every game and are mostly fine with it, its adults who have most trouble with the fact.

average_runner

davedanon wrote: »

If you're referring to my post, then you're either being disingenuous, or lazy, or you didn't read it properly. I didn't run down any other sports. It's all part of the same syndrome. Shouty, angry parents and hectoring coaches. A junior game in any sport is a cacophony of shouting and roaring. I don't know what you do about it, but there's evidently something wrong when a grown adult abuses A) a player, or the referee. Both of which I experienced, along with being abused at great volume by a young fella's dad about 20 feet from the opposition team/manager/parents, because his kid had "ONLY GOT 8 MINUTES", of a 20 minute game. I made a point that every kid got at least a full half in every game, no exceptions. He had obviously been timing his kid's game time. After that I brought my Garmin to every game. Me and some of the parents agreed afterward that in general he was a bit of a psychopath.

After I gave up coaching, he took over the team.

I wasnt referring to any particular post but more so to the general theme of the last few years on here.

Hannibal_Smith

I'm at GAA matches with u9s every sat and whilst I hear cheering on, I've never heard any parent bawling at the kids. Even the coaches will congratulate another team if they kick ot pass well. It is absolutely not common place for 8 year old kids to get roared st from the sidelines. Unless they're not listening to the coach and if that's my kid I don't mind the coach shouting at him to get back into position..he's a coach not a cheer leader.

Our team won't kick you off if you miss a match, thankfully because ours was out for 6 weeks due to a fracture. But parents have their kids signed up for so many things something had to make a call. One woman I spoke to last week was pitch side for the gaelic football match and was out to santry after because the kid was running for run for brothers pearse. Unfortunately if all matches and meets happen on a sat/Sun morning things will collide.

walshb

People can confuse coaches instructing and coaching from the sidelines in a dignified and coaching manner with shouting and roaring...

RayCun

rom wrote: »

Just checked a successful athletics club at under age here. They have on their application form that if you are selected for a team you must compete. :rolleyes:

I don't know the club, but I'm pretty sure they're talking about relay teams there, and I would guess the issue they are concerned about is people saying they want to be on a team, getting selected for a team, and then not showing up for the competition.

This is not a discussion on if team sports are better for kids or anything like that more that there are issues with athletics that need to be identified. IMHO there should be no individual medals in many events for kids especially XC, longer relays. Just have team medals.

At county level XC, there are 12 individual medals, and medals for the top three club teams.

At national level, there are 12 individual medals, medals for the top three club teams, and medals for the scoring (top 6) members of the top 3 counties, and the top three provinces, so usually 20-30 people in each race get medals.

Tombo2001

RayCun wrote: »

A lot of the kids who are in our club at 8, 10, 12... aren't there at 11, 13, 16, there's always a drop-off.
But the kids who are still in the club, at 14/15 - when they were 10/11, they were doing other sports and activities as well, and now they mostly just do athletics.

I don't think athletics is particularly regimented compared to other sports. Football training is more complicated than throwing a ball into a pack of kids and letting them chase it, after all. With any sport, if you have a coach trying to do something more technical with one kid, you want another coach to keep an eye on everyone else.

I'd agree with that.

Training for say gaelic football and hurling needs to be quite regimented. Sure you can just 'let them play matches' and then the best players will get plenty of opportunity with ball in hand. And you'll have other players that in ten weeks of training might get ten opportunities to hit the ball out of their hand.

Even teaching the basic skills requires lots of drills, never mind the more complicated ones.

Tombo2001

ultrapercy wrote: »

A big problem in all sports and indeed society at large is adults projecting their own insecurities onto children. Childten are much more savy and resilient than often they are given credit for by their less mature elders. Children from a very young age realise that there are winners and losers in every game and are mostly fine with it, its adults who have most trouble with the fact.

I appreciate the point but I also feel there has been a tipping point whereby its widely recognised that
(i) shouting at kids (i.e. to perform on the pitch etc) does the kids themselves absolutely no good
(ii) that its bad practise from a coaching point of view;
(iii) that it is socially unacceptable;
(iv) mentors / coaches shouting or complaining to the referee/ officials is also socially unacceptable.

If a coach or parent is roaring their heads off at their own kid or other kids, it wont be long until they get a tap on the shoulder.

Its becoming a no-no, and very much the exception rather than the rule.

average_runner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I appreciate the point but I also feel there has been a tipping point whereby its widely recognised that
(i) shouting at kids (i.e. to perform on the pitch etc) does the kids themselves absolutely no good
(ii) that its bad practise from a coaching point of view;
(iii) that it is socially unacceptable;
(iv) mentors / coaches shouting or complaining to the referee/ officials is also socially unacceptable.

If a coach or parent is roaring their heads off at their own kid or other kids, it wont be long until they get a tap on the shoulder.

Its becoming a no-no, and very much the exception rather than the rule.

We enforce that rule at our matches. The refs are young girls learning their skills also. Its all about encouragement for both teams and ensuring the well play and handshake afterwards between them all.