Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560577#Comment_120560577

Clongriffin was due last October but has been pushed back.

Summer at the earliest was the last communication.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560993#Comment_120560993

At the moment the only infrastructure corridors that have been planned in any meaningful way are the 12 radial corridors.

The NTA have indicated that there will be orbital corridors following on from these, but beyond some indicative lines on a schematic map they’ve published no more detail yet.

I suspect that the orbital bus routes will be stuck in traffic for some significant time to come sadly.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551407#Comment_120551407

I didn't say to scrap the BusConnects corridors altogether, just to reprogram the planning process with a view to getting certain elements of the corridor completed earlier. The rest of the corridor works, including cycle route, should still happen but the fact is that ABP is a major source of delay for projects. Aspects which can deliver big benefits on their own should be considered for a planning process which doesn't involve ABP (i.e. Part 8) in order to get something delivered in the short to medium term.

The solutions to the pinchpoints have been designed as part of the CBC so transferring that into a Part 8 shouldn't be too difficult. Some such elements require limited civil works, often painting lines and rejigging traffic lights so can be implemented quickly once approved.

I think it also would have been very beneficial to do some controversial works (i.e. bus gates) outside of BusConnects so as not to have all the bad press associated with BusConnects. The way things has been done has given BusConnects a bad name, the only chance to turn that around is by getting a corridor done and pointing to the benefits which have come from it. The Clongriffin corridor is the easiest to deliver and should take priority over getting more corridors waiting an indefinite period of time in purgatory ABP for the sake of it.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560577#Comment_120560577

I know someone dealing with an objection which was lodged over 18 mths ago, and only recently was the site visit preformed. One of the excuses for the delay was the covid 5km restrictions!

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561241#Comment_120561241

That shows the fallacy of sending in more corridor applications now, the new application files probably won't even be opened for 6 months.

loyatemu

we love a "big plan" here in Ireland. 5 years on from the initial BC plan not a single priority measure has been implemented, some parts of the project will still be in planning in 2 or 3 years time. It's also being used as an excuse to delay cycle priority measures the likes of which other cities are introducing in the space of months.

Is there a case for looking at the plans again and concentrating efforts on the areas where the biggest delays are occurring, I suspect that most of the benefit of the corridors will come from a relatively small number of interventions at pinch points. Do those first! Is planning permission needed for a bus-gate, surely not?

The reorganisation of the routes network was predicated on the corridors freeing up capacity so a system that relies on consistent headway and reliable connections could work. As things stand, the new routes will all have been introduced while the corridors are still at least 5 years away, and it's damaging the reputation of the whole concept with the public.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560993#Comment_120560993

Good luck. Dublin Bus and its predecessors have always been obsessed with "An Lar". There are many journeys of a couple of km in Dublin which require two buses and a needless trip to the city centre.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120564273#Comment_120564273

That's not what the poster was asking about. There are a multitude of orbital bus routes in the pipeline, most of them due to start within the next 12 months, once the bus companies finally manage to recruit the staff to operate them.

What the poster was asking about was whether there were infrastructure corridors planned for all of these orbital bus routes to operate along.

Design work on them will only happen once the final plans 12 radial corridors are decided.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561430#Comment_120561430

I disagree. Better to get the plans finalised and the public to submit their views now, and then let ABP get through them as they can.

That doesn't preclude quick wins being implemented by the local authorities in the meantime, where planning permission isn't needed, such as bus lanes and bus gates, and I am pretty sure that the Minister has already requested that this be looked at.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120563802#Comment_120563802

It was never the plan that the infrastructure would be in place before the new network. The infrastructure was always going to be a 10 year project, a fact was made abundantly clear to me by an NTA planning engineer at one of the original revised network consultations back in 2018. That certainly was never communicated properly to the public at large in any of the publicity.

It was one of my primary objections to the original network plan when it was published, as it envisaged far more journeys to/from the city centre would require a change. It was blindingly obvious that without the infrastructure being in place, connections couldn't be guaranteed, and this could have a significant negative impact on journeys involving low frequency routes where connections were missed. Hence that plan was shelved, and we now have the current network plan that is being implemented.

But you're right, as I posted above, they should of course be looking at quick wins and implementing improvements where possible in the meantime.

bk

I think people here are being a bit naive when they talk about “quick wins”. There really aren’t going to be any quick wins. Folks seem to have forgotten that while the works at the Cat & Cage on the swords road was a relatively modest 100 meters, yet it took years of planning and cost millions to do!

Any “quick win” worth doing, would likely take years of planning anyway, since mostly anything worth doing is going to take a lot of work anyway and a planning application anyway.

Most of the “easy” work was already largely covered on the previous QBC schemes, the BusConnects infrastructure project is about covering the hard parts that were previously avoided.

We just need to roll up the sleeves and stick with it and get it done and yes it will probably take 10 years.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566450#Comment_120566450

The Cat & Cage involved a land grab from St. Pat's. That sort of measure absolutely requires planning permission and you're absolutely right, it would take a lot of planning.

While I'd agree that the scale of quick win options aren't great, they certainly could implement some of the planned bus gates and bus lanes without any planning permission. There is nothing to stop a bus gate at Mount Brown being implemented for example to get the G-Spine running faster. That doesn't need planning permission or major infrastructure works.

They could certainly start moves towards enacting legislation to start using red light / yellow box / bus lane cameras.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566450#Comment_120566450

The Cat & Cage works were considerable and would not fall into the category of "easy win". As LXFlyer pointed out, and I before, there are jobs which involve only repainting the road lines, a few signs and new traffic lights. These have already been designed, they are part of the corridor works. It would be very easy to split off from the corridor do a Part 8 instead.

Part 8 wouldn't take years of planning and absolutely could be quicker than going through ABP. The first BC corridor which went to ABP is still there, any new corridors submitted will likely sit unopened until resources are freed up to review it, which could take a while given the number of infrastructure projects ABP have with them right now.

I don't think it's true to say that most of the “easy” work was already largely covered on the previous QBC schemes. Most of the least controversial works have been done but there is still plenty which is "easy" from doing the work POV, it just requires grasping the nettle. Doing that on a case by case basis is likely easier at this stage as BC has united objectors across the city, a few Part 8s are less likely to draw such opposition.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120564727#Comment_120564727

I would be very surprised if it is possible to undertake works which are part of a live planning application without planning approval, even if the works otherwise wouldn't have required planning permission. The planning application and its documents are all based on doing the full scope of works together as part of an integrated scheme, splitting off works has to impact the environmental assessments, construction plan, etc. I'm sure this has come up before.

Trying to do things outside the existing planning applications would likely be a further and unnecessary complication.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557826#Comment_120557826

I live right beside this part of it and am very disappointed with the latest revisions. The deviation around the back of Parkview will be bus only which seemingly means that the outbound bus lane will have to cross the opposing traffic lane twice in order to access the new segment. Also the existing Greenhills road at this point is unfit for cars and pedestrians (only a footpath on one side of the road) and it's not clear if this will be improved. I couldn't find what I was looking for in the EIS in Pleanala.ie when I looked up the case.

The original spec here was 2 bus + 2 car + 2 bike + 2 footpaths on the deviation around the back of Parkview with severance of the existing Greenhills road in front of Parkview. This was perfect and bloody consultations have ruined it. If you ask the locals what they want they will f**k up the best laid plans.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576720#Comment_120576720

I used to live in Greenhills and I remember the flyers coming through the door telling us about the 2+2 lane setup you describe being built soon.

That was at least 15 years ago

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576720#Comment_120576720

The EIS is at the link I posted above. Just scroll down the page to the bottom.

The detailed road drawings are here - under Volume 1 and then General Arrangement Drawings.

https://tallaghtclondalkinscheme.ie/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2023/05/General-Arrangement-Drawings.pdf

AngryLips

In the recent news about College Green it was mentioned that they'd be in a position to remove buses from the Green by end of this year or some time next year. Presumably that isn't contingent on BusConnects? Why was G spine launched with a routing through the Green if the final vision was for no buses going through it?

noelfirl

Never mind...

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577980#Comment_120577980

The G Spine doesn’t go through College Green - it goes via the Quays and Winetavern Street.

As I’ve already posted, removing the other routes from College Green is contingent on the rest of the BusConnects network changes happening, as they involve changing the bus routes to link different southside and northside corridors than at present, and eliminating turns at O’Connell Bridge. This in turn means that College Green can be avoided without massive dogleg detours and over-clogging the Quays.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578711#Comment_120578711

Current routes through College Green:

9, 13, 14, 15/A/B/D, 16/D, 27, 49, 54A, 56A, 65/B, 68/A, 77A, 83/A, 122, 123, 140, 150, 151

.....a lot more than I thought. However, surely these routes can be diverted without having to roll out the new network?

A chunk of those already terminate on Pearse / Poolbeg street area. Others have clear diversion routes around SSG or the quays.

The only real awkward one I see is route 13...

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578930#Comment_120578930

I think you’ll find that if you are trying to maintain connectivity, avoid dogleg detours, keeping turns at O’Connell Bridge to a minimum, and keep streets from being overly clogged up, it’s a bit more difficult than you think.

The phasing of the new network rollout is done in a particular sequence that endeavours to deliver the above.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578978#Comment_120578978

But the majority of those routes can be diverted without additional OC bridge turns or dogleg detours. The new BC routes won't be completed until 2025, at earliest.

If they want to close College Green by early 2024, they'll have to change current routes. Big disconnect somewhere

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580113#Comment_120580113

I suspect that they are not going to close College Green completely by early 2024, given that the network changes won’t now be implemented until the first half of 2025 realistically. I’m not sure where you’re getting that date from?

Again, I think you’re probably oversimplifying the issue here.

Unless you have examined the impact of diverting the bus routes by looking at the number of buses each hour on every route and the existing numbers on each corridor, and the effect of diversions (which incidentally is why ABP forced DCC to postpone the implementation of College Green pedestrianisation in the first place), I don’t know how you can conclude it can be easily done.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580228#Comment_120580228

I'm not trying to oversimplify it and I never said it would be easily done.

One of the main reasons ABP forced DCC to postpone was DB objections. However, in the meantime Windtavern St has a counterflow bus lane and car restrictions in the city have been ramped up.

I believe it's possible to now close College Green without the entire new network needing to be implemented.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580482#Comment_120580482

Exactly. We are so used to make excuses that sometimes we make them for the purpose of trying cover our lack of ambition and focus to rather the end end result, not the lengthy processes.

p_haugh

So it was mentioned here before on what will happen in Dundrum in relation to all the new bus connects services being introduced in the area.

Well, the Dundrum Draft Local Area Plan was announced today. Some big changes to public transport infrastructure in the area is proposed, including the existing bus & luas interchange facility by Dundrum luas station. A bus gate is proposed outside Dundrum Library as well, I assume to facilitate the L35.

Furthermore, changes are proposed to Dundrum Cross to help with bus services (and pedestrians & cyclists too). The Balinteer Road arm of the junction will feature a bus gate, and in general cars movements will be restricted.

There is other changes proposed for various areas in Dundrum (i.e. Windy Harbor, Dundrum Bypass, Wyckham Way, etc.), these two are just the most relevant to Bus Connects.

The full report can be found here. The above changes are mentioned in chapter 4.6 (pages 50-51)

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/2023-06/DLAP-Draft%20Plan%20Document.pdf

cgcsb

The new road traffic act is being passed. It allows for the use of cameras in enforcing Road traffic rules. We'll have to wait and see if this means cameras enforcing bus lanes.

spacetweek

Astonishing it is 2023 and we only have this now. I remember them having this in Australia when I was living over there in 2003 ffs.

tom1ie

Quick question folks, myself and the missus will be braving the bus service tomorrow which will consist of using one leap card (hers) to get two busses within 90mins to get to the board gais theatre.

How does it work getting on the second bus to prove that both passengers have paid the 90 minute fare? Is it just automatically picked up off the card on the second bus when you tap?

Thanks for the help!