Dublin - BusConnects

Qrt

CatInABox wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1069906896793100288

January is a long time away, hopefully they don't regret giving cranks time and space before getting their own message out there.

Then again, December is a pretty poor month to be holding a public consultation, it's cold and windy out. Then again.... again.... January is also a pretty poor month to be holding a public consultation.

I think it’s pretty easy to say that there is nowhere near as much fuss about this than there was with the route redesign. The redesign was and is a difficult sell, the CRC project is a clear advantage to anybody I’ve asked about it.

marno21

Anne Graham & Hugh Cregan are in front of the Oireachtas Transport Committee next Wednesday. While I don't have high hopes for the level of debate there may be some new information available at the end of it.

monument

I'm reviewing the details of the route in terms of cycling but one thing that keeps coming to mind is that the designs aren't half as good for bus priority as they should be.

For example:

• bus stops way too close together (this is really surprising when fixing it was said to be a feature of the project)
• few enough examples of bus lane priority right up to the junctions especially where the inside lane is known to get congested with crossing traffic (like at the former N4 outbound where it meets the South Circular)
• bus lanes of just 3m when two general traffic lanes in the same direction beside them being 3.4m (you could even cut 0.1m of each of the lanes to make the bus lane 3.2)
• lots of unnecessary mixing with cycling (ie where there's space or State-owned land for bus stop bypasses or land been CPOed anyway and an extra 2 or so metres for a short distance would not be much)
• having the cycling so poor in many places that people will just stick to the bus lane (the Blanch route is the worst overall)

And in other places the designers seem ok with putting people who cycle in danger just to get a slight bit of bus priority.

On cycling alone some dreadful stuff, but what's worse is the pedestrian environment and urban realm (especially around Smithfield and Stoneybatter).

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

I[*]having the cycling so poor in many places that people will just stick to the bus lane (the Blanch route is the worst overall)
[/LIST]

The Blanch route is quite good I would have thought. From the City Centre you have full 2 way segregated path starting with the liffey cycle route, a new 2 way path on Queen Street, a 'quietway' along grangegorman road then through the Grangegorman campus onto a 2 way segregated cycle way on Prussia St, up old cabra road, over a new bike bridge and completely separate up to the Navan Road.

Qrt

cgcsb wrote: »

The Blanch route is quite good I would have thought. From the City Centre you have full 2 way segregated path starting with the liffey cycle route, a new 2 way path on Queen Street, a 'quietway' along grangegorman road then through the Grangegorman campus onto a 2 way segregated cycle way on Prussia St, up old cabra road, over a new bike bridge and completely separate up to the Navan Road.

Does this one have the infamous junction oversight syndrome?

Bray Head

monument wrote: »

• bus stops way too close together (this is really surprising when fixing it was said to be a feature of the project)

This is (sadly) a big problem with Bus Connects in general, specifically, that it doesn't plan for a modest reduction in bus stop frequency (even 20%).

Bus stops are too common in Dublin leading to longer dwell times. Greater frequency of bus stops is also more likely to lead to bunching, which will be a problem if you are trying to run 5-min services on a given spine.

I can see that removal of stops was politically judged too controversial given how much else they are looking to do.

cgcsb

So early info on the Rathfarnham CBC which is one of the most difficult designs:

2 way traffic to be maintained for cars along the entire route, including through Rathmines, with an almost complete loss of parking and loading areas. Additionally there'll be quite a convoluted detour for cyclists to avoid Rathmines village as follows:

From the Rathgar Rd/Grosvenor Rd junction, cyclists divert onto Charleville rd and Wynnefield Rd, through the (to be demolished) public toilets to Leinster Sq, Louis Lane and Through school grounds and onto Ardee Rd, through the sports grounds and turn left through back yards at the end of Blackberry lane and coming out onto Grove Road through the wall just west of Grove Park, a new boardwalk on the canal will move the cycleway back in an easterly direction and a new bridge will bring it over towards Martin St/Hayterbury st where it will continue northwards as a quietway.

In my view this solution could be a good one in terms of segregation and will provide a good option for the nervous bike owner. However the indirectness of the route and the avoidance of Rathmines village, a popular start/end point for bike journeys will result in many cyclists using the bus lane through Rathmines. It will also be an expensive solution with CPOs and building a new boardwalk and bridge. I would prefer making Rathmines one way for cars and use the space to bring cyclists through. Interestingly the plan also proposes to not have any bus lanes north of Wexford st on this route instead there'll be a basic road side cycleway from Wexford St to Dame St and 2 general traffic lanes. The hope is that other measures like College Green, bus only Parliament St, no right turn from Dame St to George's st for cars etc. will be enough traffic calming to ensure journey times.

I remain unconvinced so long as the Drury St and Brown Thomas car parks remain operational and there's no further efforts at pedestrianising or putting in bike only streets in the area between Grafton st and George's st.

riddlinrussell

Bray Head wrote: »

This is (sadly) a big problem with Bus Connects in general, specifically, that it doesn't plan for a modest reduction in bus stop frequency (even 20%).

Bus stops are too common in Dublin leading to longer dwell times. Greater frequency of bus stops is also more likely to lead to bunching, which will be a problem if you are trying to run 5-min services on a given spine.

I can see that removal of stops was politically judged too controversial given how much else they are looking to do.

I don't think thats too unreasonable at present, unless busconnects were to include BRT style adjustments (Raised platform stops etc) I can see the sense in not reducing the number of stops yet to minimise pushback and risk killing the corridors before they are built. Once done they can just start moving stops one at a time to where they work best and quietly removing the ones that aren't needed.

CatInABox

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I don't think thats too unreasonable at present, unless busconnects were to include BRT style adjustments (Raised platform stops etc) I can see the sense in not reducing the number of stops yet to minimise pushback and risk killing the corridors before they are built. Once done they can just start moving stops one at a time to where they work best and quietly removing the ones that aren't needed.

Yeah, I think that they'll move some stops in order to create the interchange stops, and then once everything is operational, they'll come along and say that they now need to rationalise the stops.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

The Blanch route is quite good I would have thought. From the City Centre you have full 2 way segregated path starting with the liffey cycle route, a new 2 way path on Queen Street, a 'quietway' along grangegorman road then through the Grangegorman campus onto a 2 way segregated cycle way on Prussia St, up old cabra road, over a new bike bridge and completely separate up to the Navan Road.

The two-way path on Queen Street is rubbish — the shared footpaths, the over complicated junctions, the width, the lack of buffer and goes nowhere at its south side.

There’s no Quietway details on Grangegorman Lower.

The Grangegorman Development body has proven themselves to be rubbish at cycling (10km/h cycling “speed limit”, shared paths with no dedicated cycle paths on campus, cyclists dismount signs because they didn’t bother installing drop kerbs on a new path, limited opening hours of gates etc).

The redevelopment of the Park Shopping centre still is a big question mark.

Again rubbish two-way cycle paths up Prussia St and up Old Cabra Road when single directional paths up this section with decent bus stop bypasses would have been better.

More rubbish on the Naven Road with a distinct lack of bus stop bypasses even beside state-owned land or other large green areas.

Gives up in Castleknock etc

Bray Head

That route through Rathmines is daft. It's completely convoluted, about 20% as long by distance and actually provides the nervous cyclist with more conflict with vehicular traffic than less. I wouldn't make the diversion myself.

They should bite the bullet and make Rathmines one-way only for all but buses and put in a segregated two-way cycleway. This must be one of the busiest routes for bicycles in the country already.

This proposal would be hugely costly and will still see buses tootling along at 15km/h through Rathmines as cyclists huff and puff in the bus lane. Buses would still be slowed down by interaction with cars at junctions. This needs a bit of bravery on the part of the NTA.

cferrie

Wow, I really hope that those drawings for Rathmines are of one of the options that the design team have rejected as unworkable. It's completely daft. They have ignored several changes of level along the route and bringing a commuting cycle route through the (small) forecourt of a large primary school is just bonkers. At 8.30am it's not even possible to walk through there, never mind cycle. The route along the back of the houses on Grove Park and Blackberry Lane will be a magnet for antisocial behaviour.

No one will ever use this route.

The only way to solve the Rathmines route is to remove cars and put in bus gates. IrishCycle.com makes a convincing case for it http://irishcycle.com/2018/09/02/rathmines-would-thrive-with-bus-gates-limiting-thru-car-access/

cgcsb

This is the route that'll be out for public consultation in Jan as far as I know. I agree it's an extreme engineering solution, that misses many key design criteria and has a high cost for something could be solved by a one way system.

cferrie

This is what it will mean for my cycling commute through Rathmines (yellow is existing route, red is BusConnects diversion)

CatInABox

cferrie wrote: »

This is what it will mean for my cycling commute through Rathmines (yellow is existing route, red is BusConnects diversion)

I really can't imagine that that plan is going to fly, that's ridiculous.

RayCun

they should really bite the bullet and make Rathmines one way into town for cars, and Ranelagh road one way out (or vice versa)

can you imagine the outrage though :rolleyes:

cferrie

Cllrs Dermot Lacey & Patrick Costello both had motions before the South East Area Committee yesterday calling for a bus gate option to be considered which would restrict through traffic for private cars and allow two lanes for buses and a dedicated cycle track. Not as far-fetched as you might think.

LXFlyer

RayCun wrote: »

they should really bite the bullet and make Rathmines one way into town for cars, and Ranelagh road one way out (or vice versa)

can you imagine the outrage though :rolleyes:

And where exactly would all the diverted outbound traffic off Rathmines then go?

I might be pointing out the obvious here but the four routes, Ranelagh, Rathmines/Rathgar/Terenure, Harold’s Cross/Terenure/Rathfarnham and Harold’s Cross/KCR are all chocked full of traffic as it is as are all of the cross-routes.

I’ve had my doubts all along about the difference any measures in this area will have on average bus speeds and I’ve yet to see anything to change that.

RayCun

LXFlyer wrote: »

And where exactly would all the diverted outbound traffic off Rathmines then go?

a one-way system around Rathmines Road Lower, the canal, Ranelagh Road, and Charleston Road

cgcsb

In my view the north bound cars should be sent on that diversion on a new road and a 2 way cycle track should go through Rathmines, slowin down car traffic considerably, and making cycling and taking the bus very fast indeed.

cferrie

The whole point of the investment in BusConnects is to reduce the reliance on the private car. Prioritising road space for transport modes that can transport the most people in the most efficient manner is the only way to cut down on congestion.

LXFlyer wrote: »

And where exactly would all the diverted outbound traffic off Rathmines then go?

I might be pointing out the obvious here but the four routes, Ranelagh, Rathmines/Rathgar/Terenure, Harold’s Cross/Terenure/Rathfarnham and Harold’s Cross/KCR are all chocked full of traffic as it is as are all of the cross-routes.

I’ve had my doubts all along about the difference any measures in this area will have on average bus speeds and I’ve yet to see anything to change that.

RayCun

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’ve had my doubts all along about the difference any measures in this area will have on average bus speeds and I’ve yet to see anything to change that.

at the moment, Rathmines has one lane of traffic in each direction, so buses are held up by cars
Get rid of the car parking spaces and loading bays, and have a working bus lane in each direction and you will improve bus speeds

cferrie

You'll have to get rid of the taxis in the bus lane too, but that's a whole other day's discussion!

LXFlyer

cferrie wrote: »

The whole point of the investment in BusConnects is to reduce the reliance on the private car. Prioritising road space for transport modes that can transport the most people in the most efficient manner is the only way to cut down on congestion.

I’m fully aware of the claims, but I remain unconvinced that the stated targets in terms of journey time cuts in that area are in any way deliverable.

That’s before you deal with the reality that Dublin Bus are currently increasing frequency on many cross-city routes, which the other part of this plan proposes to remove!

The reality is that outside of the canals, turning routes into one way roads is going to be exceptionally difficult to deliver. It’s going to attract massive opposition.

While as a bus user I always favour bus priority measures, I’m far from convinced that the south central area has the road capacity to cope with turning these routes into one way routes.

Much of the traffic is not necessarily going inside the canal - it’s veering off those routes and those east-west roads are chock full as it is.

LXFlyer

RayCun wrote: »

at the moment, Rathmines has one lane of traffic in each direction, so buses are held up by cars
Get rid of the car parking spaces and loading bays, and have a working bus lane in each direction and you will improve bus speeds

I doubt that between the Circle K garage and the swimming pool (if not Military Rd without demolition) that’s physically possible.

CatInABox

LXFlyer wrote: »

While as a bus user I always favour bus priority measures, I’m far from convinced that the south central area has the toad capacity to cope with turning these routes into one way routes.

That's the best typo I've seen all day, thanks LXFlyer, that gave me a good laugh.

LXFlyer

RayCun wrote: »

a one-way system around Rathmines Road Lower, the canal, Ranelagh Road, and Charleston Road

How familiar are you with peak traffic levels in that area?

All of those roads are currently full of traffic.

cferrie

You'd be surprised what can be acheived there http://irishcycle.com/2017/08/03/what-to-do-with-a-problem-like-cycling-in-rathmines/

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

That's the best typo I've seen all day, thanks LXFlyer, that gave me a good laugh.

You’re welcome lol.

RayCun

LXFlyer wrote: »

How familiar are you with peak traffic levels in that area?

All of those roads are currently full of traffic.

The object of the exercise is to make journey times faster for buses, and increase the provision of cycling facilities.
Not to make things better - or even keep them the same - for private cars. If it takes cars 10 minutes longer to get through that area, but buses get through 10 minutes faster, that's a net win.