Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer · 13-05-2019 10:17pm

bk wrote: »

Where did you get this from?

The Network Redesign never suggested this! As I mentioned above, the core routes were always going to get increased frequency!

From the Network Redesign report under the "Big Ideas" section (i.e. key goals):

There you go in black and white.

The orbitals are coming from the 10% extra buses that the NTA has bought and probably more to come in future, to be used on the orbital routes and local routes, to free up capacity for the core corridor routes, which was always the plan.

Quite simply - a colleague counted the total number of buses that would serve the city centre under the plan and compared it with the existing service levels.

You can quote all the bumph that you want at me, but the bottom line is that the number of buses under the 2018 network redesign serving the city centre over the course of the day was reduced as compared with the existing service levels at that point.

cgcsb · 14-05-2019 11:54am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

How does that one work? Will employees only pay BIK on a parking space that is designated just for them? What about workplaces that have general pool of parking spaces for employees but they're not designated to any one employee? Would they have to pay BIK whether they drive or not?

It would take legislation. Basically the employer who offers the benefit will have to regulate it, i.e. assign a space to a person (if they want) and they'll be taxed accordingly.

LeinsterDub · 14-05-2019 12:10pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Quite simply - a colleague counted the total number of buses that would serve the city centre under the plan and compared it with the existing service levels.

You can quote all the bumph that you want at me, but the bottom line is that the number of buses under the 2018 network redesign serving the city centre over the course of the day was reduced as compared with the existing service levels at that point.

Does this argument boil down to what to consider the city centre? I know one of the key goals on BusConnects is to reduced the number of buses crossing the city and as such the number of buses on the likes of OCS and College green is being lowered. However if you factor in the orbitals and the frequencies and expand the cite centre beyond a 1950's lens you've more services into the city.

cgcsb · 14-05-2019 12:22pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Doe this argument boil down to what to consider the city centre? I know one of the key goals on BusConnects is to reduced the number of buses crossing the city and as such the number of buses on the likes of OCS and College green is being lowered. However if you factor in the orbitals and the frequencies and expand the cite centre beyond a 1950's lens you've more services into the city.

At present if I want to take PT from, say Stoneybatter to Harcourt St, I have to go via college green, post bus connects I can travel there more directly, and won't need to go near college green. Instead I'll use buses that go through christchurch This is the case for lot's of journeys which currently don't need to go near College Green, but the commuter is forced to, due to a lack of routes crossing the city along other axis.

LXFlyer · 14-05-2019 2:28pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Doe this argument boil down to what to consider the city centre? I know one of the key goals on BusConnects is to reduced the number of buses crossing the city and as such the number of buses on the likes of OCS and College green is being lowered. However if you factor in the orbitals and the frequencies and expand the cite centre beyond a 1950's lens you've more services into the city.

The calculations would of course include the proposed routes that would go direct from the Quays to George’s St (like the 7 and 14) and the 22 also, and indeed the O ring. It was not OCB centric if that’s what you mean.

When my colleague added all of these services up, and compared it with the then timetabled services there was a net reduction in the greater city centre area.

That was used to deliver the additional orbital network, all of which included the current fleet expansion buses as well.

Hence it will be interesting to see what the revised plan produces in terms of capacity compared with the current service provision. It’s going to be challenging without further expanding the fleet beyond the original assumptions.

marno21 · 15-05-2019 7:39pm

The NTA have tendered for engineering consultancy services for the EIA & TIA preparations as part of the BusConnects programme.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=147006

CatInABox · 15-05-2019 7:40pm

marno21 wrote: »

The NTA have tendered for engineering consultancy services for the EIA & TIA preparations as part of the BusConnects programme.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=147006

Moving forward, ever so slowly.

bk · 15-05-2019 9:33pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Quite simply - a colleague counted the total number of buses that would serve the city centre under the plan and compared it with the existing service levels.

How could your "colleague" count total numbers of buses serving the city center!

No detailed schedules have been published yet! The BusConnects plan only gave generalised frequencies for routes. You can't really tell total numbers of buses needed from that!

Looking at the frequency route table, there really aren't that many orbital routes and with the exception, of the O route, they aren't that particularly frequent either. I don't see any reason why that frequency couldn't be handled by the recent 10% increase in buses.

I really don't expect that the core routes would end up with any less buses. There might be some messing around with quieter local and radial routes, but not the cores. And of course, who is to say the the NTA won't decide to increase the fleet by another 5 or 10% over the next two years as this is implemented.

Spanish Eyes · 15-05-2019 9:40pm

Bk and Lx need to get a room now.

Sorry but it’s coloured by your debate within a debate.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2019 6:49am

bk wrote: »

How could your "colleague" count total numbers of buses serving the city center!

No detailed schedules have been published yet! The BusConnects plan only gave generalised frequencies for routes. You can't really tell total numbers of buses needed from that!

Looking at the frequency route table, there really aren't that many orbital routes and with the exception, of the O route, they aren't that particularly frequent either. I don't see any reason why that frequency couldn't be handled by the recent 10% increase in buses.

I really don't expect that the core routes would end up with any less buses. There might be some messing around with quieter local and radial routes, but not the cores. And of course, who is to say the the NTA won't decide to increase the fleet by another 5 or 10% over the next two years as this is implemented.

Of course you can calculate the numbers of departures based on the frequency guides - unless you are saying that they were not actually what they’re planning for. It might be out by one or two departures but it was very clearly calculated by the team using the augmented fleet under my understanding.

If you’re saying that the detailed information provided alongside the plan isn’t worth relying on then that kind of makes the thing worthless.

Look you have your own views, and I have mine, but the devil is always in the detail and I will always focus on that as it is what has bedevilled our public transport for years and let it down. If that detail isn’t worth relying on then how can it ever be held up to scrutiny?

All of the comments that I’ve made have been on the basis of analysing the numbers published in the report, which is all we have to go on. If doing that is “absolute rubbish” in your view, well so be it, but that then begs the question as to whether we should ever query the plan at all?

I’ll stand by the comment that based on the frequency guides provided in the plan in 2018, and comparing them with the existing services, there were cuts in services to/from the city centre overall.

bk · 16-05-2019 10:25am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bk and Lx need to get a room now.

Sorry but it’s coloured by your debate within a debate.

Apologies to all, I won't say anymore on this subtopic.

cgcsb · 27-05-2019 3:09pm

I seen the trial hybrid bus over the weekend. Got to thinking about how we should have cleaner technology. Obviously fully electric double decker buses are probably too big an ask for current battery technology.

So perhaps a variation on the trolleybus concept could be considered? lets say if all of the busconnects spines had overhead wires and the parts where they branch off from the spines they could use battery/diesel power.

Air quality will become a real issue at our present rate of inaction so decarbonising public transport could be a big win, obviously this means more money, but it could be a gradual change with fleet renewal.

Interestingly I emailed all the LE candidates recently and asked them their views on several topics, pretty much all of them agreed with a diesel ban, but played it down, some saying they don't see any votes in it.

loyatemu · 27-05-2019 3:29pm

given the NIMBY furore already happening over BusConnects, I don't think adding "unsightly" overhead wires to the mix would help. Just getting more people out of their cars and onto public transport (or better, onto bikes) will have a significant effect on emissions and pollution; AIUI the Euro6 standard is already very stringent compared to emissions from cars, and hybrid buses will be better again.

cgcsb · 27-05-2019 3:39pm

loyatemu wrote: »

given the NIMBY furore already happening over BusConnects, I don't think adding "unsightly" overhead wires to the mix would help. Just getting more people out of their cars and onto public transport (or better, onto bikes) will have a significant effect on emissions and pollution; AIUI the Euro6 standard is already very stringent compared to emissions from cars, and hybrid buses will be better again.

A lot of opposition I see on social media claims that the diesel buses are bad. Never mind that even a diesel bus would only emit about 100th the NOX of a standard diesel car per passenger. There are some thinly veiled 'environmentalist' arguments pointing to less trees and more diesel buses. By the time the current CBCs are done batteries probably will have replaced the trolleybus concept. I have to say I'm a fan of them where they exist though. :cool:

bk · 27-05-2019 4:01pm

The NTA have just put out a tender for 600 Hybrid double deckers. They also said that they believe full BEV double deckers will be commercially available 5 years from now. So the plan seems to be HEV for now and full BEV when it becomes available.

Makes sense to me, I don't think there would be much point in spending a massive amount of money on overhead cables when BEV is so close. Hell it probably would take 5 years to plan, get the planning permission and actually install overhead cables.

I agree, I did enjoy taking trolleybuses in Poland. 20 years ago it would have been a great idea. Technology I feel is about to make them redundant, at least where they aren't already.

Which BTW will bring up interesting conversations about any new Luas lines.

cgcsb · 27-05-2019 4:15pm

bk wrote: »

The NTA have just put out a tender for 600 Hybrid double deckers. They also said that they believe full BEV double deckers will be commercially available 5 years from now. So the plan seems to be HEV for now and full BEV when it becomes available.

Makes sense to me, I don't think there would be much point in spending a massive amount of money on overhead cables when BEV is so close. Hell it probably would take 5 years to plan, get the planning permission and actually install overhead cables.

I agree, I did enjoy taking trolleybuses in Poland. 20 years ago it would have been a great idea. Technology I feel is about to make them redundant, at least where they aren't already.

Which BTW will bring up interesting conversations about any new Luas lines.

I think the D spine on the Malahide Road and the E spine on the Stillorgan road are already past due for upgrade to luas. I would put these ahead of any more spurs off existing lines, the prospect of battery operated trams is an interesting one. Although considering the luas operates some of the worlds longest, and thus heaviest trams, we're probably a long way off from that now. By the time batteries become that energy dense we'll probably have competitively priced electric planes in the aviation market.

bk · 27-05-2019 4:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the D spine on the Malahide Road and the E spine on the Stillorgan road are already past due for upgrade to luas. I would put these ahead of any more spurs off existing lines, the prospect of battery operated trams is an interesting one. Although considering the luas operates some of the worlds longest, and thus heaviest trams, we're probably a long way off from that now. By the time batteries become that energy dense we'll probably have competitively priced electric planes in the aviation market.

Well the NTA/IR have just put out a tender for trains that will run by battery, so they would be even heavier then the trams....

It will be interesting to see how it works out.

Sam Russell · 27-05-2019 8:00pm

I remember there was a proposal for a Rapid Bus Transit for Sydney Parade to Sandyford.

First bus rapid-transit route for Dublin would link Sydney Parade and Sandyford
Sat, Oct 9, 2010, 01:00

DUBLIN’S FIRST bus rapid-transit route is being planned to link the Dart station at Sydney Parade with Sandyford Business Estate, running via St Vincent’s University Hospital, the RTÉ campus at Montrose and University College Dublin in Belfield.

The proposed “Blue Line”, which could be built at a cost of €33 million – a small fraction of the estimated €5 billion price-tag for Metro North – would offer “a high quality, high-frequency, high-capacity public transport service featuring all the benefits of a fixed-rail tram system”.

See full article here.

It never happened. It used tram-like buses.

Qrt · 27-05-2019 9:21pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the D spine on the Malahide Road and the E spine on the Stillorgan road are already past due for upgrade to luas. I would put these ahead of any more spurs off existing lines, the prospect of battery operated trams is an interesting one. Although considering the luas operates some of the worlds longest, and thus heaviest trams, we're probably a long way off from that now. By the time batteries become that energy dense we'll probably have competitively priced electric planes in the aviation market.

I'd love to see some of the spines converted to LRT at some stage in my lifetime. I often wonder if it would be like what the Red Line sees along the Blackhorse-Bluebell section, or if it'd be like where the current bus lanes are positioned. If so, I can see a tram being fairly slow. Obviously this is all very hypothetical and far into the future, but an interesting thought nonetheless.

I genuinely cannot wait for the hybrid buses though, I assume they'll shut off when stopped similar to what (I think) the ones in London do. It'll make the city such a nicer place to be.

Heartbreak Hank · 28-05-2019 8:55am

Will they be significantly quieter? I have a bus stop outside my house on a concrete road (with patched panel:mad:) and I can't tell if the huge spike in noise is from diesel engine, an old bus engine, road noise, or the hopping of the "repaired" panel.

My long term sanity is hoping that a change to hybrid will bring the noise down.

cgcsb · 28-05-2019 9:45am

Qrt wrote: »

I'd love to see some of the spines converted to LRT at some stage in my lifetime. I often wonder if it would be like what the Red Line sees along the Blackhorse-Bluebell section, or if it'd be like where the current bus lanes are positioned. If so, I can see a tram being fairly slow. Obviously this is all very hypothetical and far into the future, but an interesting thought nonetheless.

In the case of the Stillorgan Road and the Malahide road, there's scope to use the central reserve and one of the car lanes while keeping 2 bus lanes and and 2 cycle lanes for much of the route, at points buses will have to share with trams. the buses would be less frequent though given the higher frequency trams.

Qrt wrote: »

I genuinely cannot wait for the hybrid buses though, I assume they'll shut off when stopped similar to what (I think) the ones in London do. It'll make the city such a nicer place to be.

I'd imagine they take off and come to a stop on electric power, only using the engine when building up some speed. I'll still be wearing my pollution mask while cycling though for the time being.

There needs to be a total diesel ban inside the canals.

Neworder79 · 28-05-2019 10:27am

cgcsb wrote: »

There needs to be a total diesel ban inside the canals.

I don't know why there hasn't been more focus on the health and air quality aspect. I find myself holding my breath at times walking to work and don't like walking kids to school the fumes are so strong on calm days with congested traffic idling on narrow streets. Metallic taste lingers in your throat.

Aside from waiting on new electric technology, major cities like Sydney had clean air bus campaigns moving fleet to LNG as far back as the mid 90s.

cgcsb · 28-05-2019 10:31am

Neworder79 wrote: »

I don't know why there hasn't been more focus on the health and air quality aspect. I find myself holding my breath at times walking to work and don't like walking kids to school the fumes are so strong on calm days with congested traffic idling on narrow streets. Metallic taste lingers in your throat.

Aside from waiting on new electric technology, major cities like Sydney had clean air bus campaigns moving fleet to LNG as far back as the mid 90s.

We have less of a problem with air quality here than, say, the UK for several reasons:

1. It's windy af
2. We never built motorways through our City Centres like the UK did
3. Our diesel bus fleet is one of the most modern and has low NOX emissions
4. We have a HGV ban
5. We don't have those black taxi things, which should really be illegal everywhere.

Neworder79 · 28-05-2019 10:41am

I've noticed a major deterioration in the years since Diesel switch, which was evident in the last city air quality report. But agree with your points, Dublins scale/weather make it less of an issues than denser cities, and down more to private cars use more than bus network.

CatInABox · 28-05-2019 4:20pm

An interview with Anne Graham was in the Sunday Independent. She's struck me as very competent any time I've seen or heard her talk.

See here.

devnull · 28-05-2019 7:05pm

CatInABox wrote: »

An interview with Anne Graham was in the Sunday Independent. She's struck me as very competent any time I've seen or heard her talk.

See here.

She has a Masters in Transport Engineering, another one in Business Administration, Bachelor in Civil Engineering and Diploma in Environmental Engineering and held a position as a Director of Public Transport Services before becoming CEO of the NTA, which I'd say stand her in very good stead.

CatInABox · 28-05-2019 9:01pm

devnull wrote: »

She has a Masters in Transport Engineering, another one in Business Administration, Bachelor in Civil Engineering and Diploma in Environmental Engineering and held a position as a Director of Public Transport Services before becoming CEO of the NTA, which I'd say stand her in very good stead.

Yeah, that definitely comes across anytime I've seen her be lobbied by politician. I'm not sure how she doesn't roll her eyes whenever a politician asks her "can we not avoid all this bus corridor stuff by putting in a few priority lights?".

Qrt · 28-05-2019 9:17pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, that definitely comes across anytime I've seen her be lobbied by politician. I'm not sure how she doesn't roll her eyes whenever a politician asks her "can we not avoid all this bus corridor stuff by putting in a few priority lights?".

Isn’t there lights like that already in Rathmines? They’re off of course, I’m sure it’s because they were useless. They still have them in use on the Tallaght Bypass approach to J11 mind, I think they’re deadly. I can’t wait til they’re more common.

Last Stop · 28-05-2019 11:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the D spine on the Malahide Road and the E spine on the Stillorgan road are already past due for upgrade to luas. I would put these ahead of any more spurs off existing lines, the prospect of battery operated trams is an interesting one. Although considering the luas operates some of the worlds longest, and thus heaviest trams, we're probably a long way off from that now. By the time batteries become that energy dense we'll probably have competitively priced electric planes in the aviation market.

It’s only around 4km from Harcourt Luas a long Adelaide Rd, Lesson St to UCD. Running it elevated in the median from Donnybrook Church (designed for future upgrade to metro) would achieve decent journey times.

At €40m a km (€160m total) it would be similar price to Busconnects plans and presumably be a lot more publicly acceptable.

Here’s my favourite part though; it would strengthen the case for upgrading the green line south of Charlemont to Metro. A bridge over the canal at Harcourt Terrace would mean Metro to Luas within 300m.

Similar on the Malahide road; I’d like to see it tie in with Luas Cross City at Parnell and take the one way loop. This would require a delta at Trinity to allow trams turn back onto Westmoreland.

If you ran Lucan (upgrade of line G) and Rathfarnham (straight from Christchurch to the dodder bridge before following the river until Templogue) Luas lines through the north side of college green and tied them into the one way loop, you would potentially have one of the best transport systems in the world with 5 tram lines and a metro all linked together in close proximity to the city centre! This would be almost identical to the Chicago Loop. One can dream eh :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 29-05-2019 10:27am

Last Stop wrote: »

It’s only around 4km from Harcourt Luas a long Adelaide Rd, Lesson St to UCD. Running it elevated in the median from Donnybrook Church (designed for future upgrade to metro) would achieve decent journey times.

At €40m a km (€160m total) it would be similar price to Busconnects plans and presumably be a lot more publicly acceptable.

Here’s my favourite part though; it would strengthen the case for upgrading the green line south of Charlemont to Metro. A bridge over the canal at Harcourt Terrace would mean Metro to Luas within 300m.

Similar on the Malahide road; I’d like to see it tie in with Luas Cross City at Parnell and take the one way loop. This would require a delta at Trinity to allow trams turn back onto Westmoreland.

If you ran Lucan (upgrade of line G) and Rathfarnham (straight from Christchurch to the dodder bridge before following the river until Templogue) Luas lines through the north side of college green and tied them into the one way loop, you would potentially have one of the best transport systems in the world with 5 tram lines and a metro all linked together in close proximity to the city centre! This would be almost identical to the Chicago Loop. One can dream eh :rolleyes:

You'd be adding more trams onto the same line in the centre, new routes need new capacity.

Dublin - BusConnects

Comments