Dublin - BusConnects

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

It’s only around 4km from Harcourt Luas a long Adelaide Rd, Lesson St to UCD. Running it elevated in the median from Donnybrook Church (designed for future upgrade to metro) would achieve decent journey times.

At €40m a km (€160m total) it would be similar price to Busconnects plans and presumably be a lot more publicly acceptable.

Here’s my favourite part though; it would strengthen the case for upgrading the green line south of Charlemont to Metro. A bridge over the canal at Harcourt Terrace would mean Metro to Luas within 300m.

Similar on the Malahide road; I’d like to see it tie in with Luas Cross City at Parnell and take the one way loop. This would require a delta at Trinity to allow trams turn back onto Westmoreland.

If you ran Lucan (upgrade of line G) and Rathfarnham (straight from Christchurch to the dodder bridge before following the river until Templogue) Luas lines through the north side of college green and tied them into the one way loop, you would potentially have one of the best transport systems in the world with 5 tram lines and a metro all linked together in close proximity to the city centre! This would be almost identical to the Chicago Loop. One can dream eh :rolleyes:

Would it make more sense for a Malahide Road luas to continue down Amiens St to link with Connolly and the red line? Or it could continue south, crossing the river towards Pearse St and College Green, and then into the proposed line f to Lucan. This would form a second cross city route mirroring the red line.

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

You'd be adding more trams onto the same line in the centre, new routes need new capacity.

Naturally yes but that central section isn’t at max capacity yet with the biggest issue being college green and this idea actually reduces that issue by turning some trams back north at Trinity. Add in complementary measures such as those proposed under Busconnects (no right turn over O’Connell bridge) and you increase the capacity.
Long term there may be need for additional tracks but in the short to medium term (30 years) there should be enough to facilitate the lines

donvito99 wrote: »

Would it make more sense for a Malahide Road luas to continue down Amiens St to link with Connolly and the red line? Or it could continue south, crossing the river towards Pearse St and College Green, and then into the proposed line f to Lucan. This would form a second cross city route mirroring the red line.

The issue with that is it effectively copies the DART. By sending it through Summerhill etc., you increase the catchment area.

Qrt

Last Stop wrote: »

The issue with that is it effectively copies the DART. By sending it through Summerhill etc., you increase the catchment area.

I can't see a tram ever going through Summerhill. We can't even have public seating in this city without someone peddling the "anti-social behaviour" line, nevermind a tram through an area of the city recognised as a no-go area by many Dubliners (even though they're wrong).

Qrt

I've been looking at the proposed map again, and I didn't really realise how badly served the Citywest area will be. The Luas into town is grand, but it'll soon be getting very very packed with the immense number of residential schemes to be completed within the next five years or so. The W8 will serve many estates at just a 30-min frequency, some of these estates being 15/20 min walk from the Luas. Alternatively they could get the D2 (present day 27) but that's a fair bit away too, plus it does the loop around Brookfield. The W8 between Citywest and The Square needs a fair increase in frequency tbh.

BonnieSituation

Qrt wrote: »

I can't see a tram ever going through Summerhill. We can't even have public seating in this city without someone peddling the "anti-social behaviour" line, nevermind a tram through an area of the city recognised as a no-go area by many Dubliners (even though they're wrong).

Smithfield and Benburb St was no-go once as well.

Footfall and through traffic are the real enemies of anti-social behaviour.

sharper

Qrt wrote: »

I've been looking at the proposed map again, and I didn't really realise how badly served the Citywest area will be. The Luas into town is grand, but it'll soon be getting very very packed with the immense number of residential schemes to be completed within the next five years or so.

For better or worse as part of BusConnects it seems to be an assumption that if options other than the bus exists people should use that instead. You'll also see the same anywhere where the train runs as well.

Whether those options have any actual capacity existing or planned seems to be in the category of someone else's problem.

Sam Russell

Mod: I've moved the posts on refurbing buses to a new thread as it is off topic here.

New thread here.

CatInABox

Not often that I think that the Irish Georgian Society have made a good point, but they've hit the nail on the head here (if a little verbosely, I guess Georgian Society gotta Georgian Society)

“The society notes that the NTA calls for participants in the consultation to suggest alternative solutions or options for consideration,” its submission said.

“Given this, the society respectfully requests that the NTA give consideration to reducing measures designed to facilitate access to the city centre by unsustainable modes of transport (ie private cars) before considering undermining the integrity of the historic environment through the removal of historic fabric and street trees.

“For example, it is unclear why the removal of original fabric from within the curtilage of protected structures or the removal of existing street trees would even be countenanced at locations where there is sufficient space to provide on-street car parking bays.”

See here.

salmocab

CatInABox wrote: »

Not often that I think that the Irish Georgian Society have made a good point, but they've hit the nail on the head here (if a little verbosely, I guess Georgian Society gotta Georgian Society)



See here.

There is a medium term issue with us needing better PT before we can really start forcing people out of cars. We are effectively stuck with a chicken and egg problem. I’m all for cutting some on street parking but some businesses are reliant on it. Without a realistic alternative for thousands of commuters it would be a very hard sell and probably political suicide to do much more than losing a few spaces here and there. Unfortunately I think we need connects and metro before we can really go at private cars in the city properly.

Dats me

salmocab wrote: »

There is a medium term issue with us needing better PT before we can really start forcing people out of cars. We are effectively stuck with a chicken and egg problem. I’m all for cutting some on street parking but some businesses are reliant on it. Without a realistic alternative for thousands of commuters it would be a very hard sell and probably political suicide to do much more than losing a few spaces here and there. Unfortunately I think we need connects and metro before we can really go at private cars in the city properly.

In fairness though all routes have a stated aim of maintaining a general traffic lane in each direction along the route. So that could be cut down to a single traffic lane that switches direction (inbound in the morning and outbound in the evening).

salmocab

Dats me wrote: »

In fairness though all routes have a stated aim of maintaining a general traffic lane in each direction along the route. So that could be cut down to a single traffic lane that switches direction (inbound in the morning and outbound in the evening).

Certainly could be a start, they need to find some low hanging fruit to get started and start making some savings on travel times but getting people out of cars means giving them a useable alternative. Currently there isn’t one, yes individuals could decide to use the bus instead but the rush hour buses are already fairly busy there isn’t room for thousands more users.
Fwiw I don’t see bus connects being fully implemented, I don’t think anyone has the political will to take people’s gardens for the greater good once the protests kick off. Hopefully I’m wrong.

Qrt

salmocab wrote: »

Certainly could be a start, they need to find some low hanging fruit to get started and start making some savings on travel times but getting people out of cars means giving them a useable alternative. Currently there isn’t one, yes individuals could decide to use the bus instead but the rush hour buses are already fairly busy there isn’t room for thousands more users.
Fwiw I don’t see bus connects being fully implemented, I don’t think anyone has the political will to take people’s gardens for the greater good once the protests kick off. Hopefully I’m wrong.

Anyone who might be subjected to CPOs has already been notified. If large scale protests haven’t happened by now, I don’t think they ever will.

Idbatterim

They aren’t taking the front garden. They are taking a small unused portion of it in most cases. Unless they are losing the ability to park in their garden , stuff their complaints ...

Idbatterim

salmocab wrote: »

There is a medium term issue with us needing better PT before we can really start forcing people out of cars. We are effectively stuck with a chicken and egg problem. I’m all for cutting some on street parking but some businesses are reliant on it. Without a realistic alternative for thousands of commuters it would be a very hard sell and probably political suicide to do much more than losing a few spaces here and there. Unfortunately I think we need connects and metro before we can really go at private cars in the city properly.

We also need dart underground. It’s laughable. You can’t solve these problems without taking decisions that our politicians aren’t prepared to take. Irish solution to an Irish problem...

salmocab

I think the protests are coming, a few politicians will jump on board.

salmocab

Idbatterim wrote: »

We also need dart underground. It’s laughable. You can’t solve these problems without taking decisions that our politicians aren’t prepared to take. Irish solution to an Irish problem...

This is it, nobody is willing to do anything. They are happy to chuck the deck chairs off the titanic but not commit to anything close to enough. Metrolink was snipped for political gain and I fear bus connects will go the same way.

Idbatterim

salmocab wrote: »

This is it, nobody is willing to do anything. They are happy to chuck the deck chairs off the titanic but not commit to anything close to enough. Metrolink was snipped for political gain and I fear bus connects will go the same way.

I don’t see why they are such cowards. You’ll lose a few votes , you’ll win a lot more. Honestly they constantly want to pander to a minority here. If they didn’t want to make any decisions or improve things , why are they in politics ?

salmocab

Idbatterim wrote: »

I don’t see why they are such cowards. You’ll lose a few votes , you’ll win a lot more. Honestly they constantly want to pander to a minority here. If they didn’t want to make any decisions or improve things , why are they in politics ?

They are cowards because we as a people are great at protesting against what we don’t want and don’t push for what we do want. We end up listening to the noisy minority. Coupled with the local nature of our politics we end up with the like of Ryan pandering to his constituents instead of his party beliefs.

hmmm

salmocab wrote: »

I think the protests are coming, a few politicians will jump on board.

It's harder now after the Green party gains at the elections - I think it'll encourage parties at a national level to be braver and to be more in favour of PT in general. Local politicians will still pander to NIMBY minorities, but perhaps not with as much vigour. The votes of a handful of rich people who don't like PT through their area are not worth as much as perhaps politicians might have thought they were.

sharper

salmocab wrote: »

I think the protests are coming, a few politicians will jump on board.

There have been protests against the infrastructure part (google "Community not corridor") but they're mostly ineffectual because the changes are often fairly minor and/or the protesters lack a reasonable alternative past "Not here!"

The network redesign will be a tougher sell especially for areas that lose their direct connection to the city centre.

salmocab

sharper wrote: »

There have been protests against the infrastructure part (google "Community not corridor") but they're mostly ineffectual because the changes are often fairly minor and/or the protesters lack a reasonable alternative past "Not here!"

The network redesign will be a tougher sell especially for areas that lose their direct connection to the city centre.

Oh I’ve seen the protests, I just think there will be a lot coming down the road once things start to actually happen (I really hope I’m wrong btw). For protests it doesn’t really matter what they are protesting whether it’s save the trees or my garden these are the ones that get attention.

spacetweek

salmocab wrote: »

Oh I’ve seen the protests, I just think there will be a lot coming down the road once things start to actually happen (I really hope I’m wrong btw). For protests it doesn’t really matter what they are protesting whether it’s save the trees or my garden these are the ones that get attention.

I really hope we don't end up with water protest-style street blockades.
Water meters and bus corridors are both things you can protest from your house.
Other stuff requires going into town to Leinster House so lazy people don't bother.

OldMrBrennan83

Hopefully these protests can have the same influence as the ones for the water charges. This whole thing is a mess.

Spanish Eyes

Ironic that many of those complaining live near the city in the leafy suburbs, whereas those who would benefit live further down the line and would be delighted to shave a bit off their weary journey.

Always the leafy suburbs who complain, when traffic really doesn't impact them much, as they are so close to the city anyway.

Zebra3

Idbatterim wrote: »

I don’t see why they are such cowards. You’ll lose a few votes , you’ll win a lot more. Honestly they constantly want to pander to a minority here. If they didn’t want to make any decisions or improve things , why are they in politics ?

Because to them it’s a fun game which gives them the buzz of power and the chance to line their own pockets.

donvito99

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Hopefully these protests can have the same influence as the ones for the water charges. This whole thing is a mess.

I'll bite.

What's the mess as you see it with Busconnects?

OldMrBrennan83

donvito99 wrote: »

I'll bite.

What's the mess as you see it with Busconnects?

To be honest, I've posted about it a lot before so there's no point in rehashing it all. But from both a moral level and a personal level it's awful.

I know that's a sin to say here if you worship at the altar of Jarret (or whatever his name is, can remember) but sometimes "buses > *" isn't the straight answer to everything.

L1011

Moral level??

matrim

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ironic that many of those complaining live near the city in the leafy suburbs, whereas those who would benefit live further down the line and would be delighted to shave a bit off their weary journey.

Always the leafy suburbs who complain, when traffic really doesn't impact them much, as they are so close to the city anyway.

To be fair these changes effect people in the areas closer to the city more. The people further out get more benefits without the changes to their area.

OldMrBrennan83

L1011 wrote: »

Moral level??

Stealing land that people have purchased and forcing them onto buses because they can no longer park their vehicle. A driveway they paid for by choice.