Dublin - BusConnects

Amirani

Last Stop wrote: »

Between Harold’s Cross and Terenure is the challenge but like I said a 1 way traffic system could work.

It wouldn't, there's not enough space.

How would you propose to fit a 2 way tram and 1 lane of traffic here for example? https://goo.gl/maps/cR1vedStsYVK2cGo6

Kellyconor1982

Last Stop wrote: »

The only metro I can see in Dublin is the one from Swords to Sandyford and eventually Bray. No other corridor has sufficient demand to justify the costs. A Luas to Knocklyon would cater for the demand on that corridor and be a reasonable price (not cheap but not metro expensive).
The majority of the route from Christchurch has 3 lanes minimum so a well thought out one way system where necessary would work. This would leave the Rathmines and Kimmage corridors free. Compare that to Busconnects and they are closing both the Rathmines and Kimmage corridors in at least one direction. This will cause havoc in the city and the proposed buses simply do not have the capacity to meet demand.


If we say that the buses have a frequency of 5 minutes (extremely high for buses) that’s 12 buses per hour in a corridor. A bus holds 100 people max, so that’s 1200 people per corridor per hour. Even taking the close proximity of the Kimmage and Rathfarmham corridors, that’s still only 2400 people during the peak hour.
Compare that to a Luas with trams every 4 minutes so 15 trams(reasonable frequency) and you have 300 people per tram = 4,500 people with scope for increasing the frequency to every 3 minutes (6,000 people).

For anyone who says that buses can travel at less than 5 minute headways, I don’t doubt they can but their reliability decreases significantly with the added complication of onboard payments and no guaranteed stopping pattern it’s extremely unlikely to work well. Take some of the core routes now at 10 minute frequency’s such as the 145 or the 46a which have relatively continuous bus lanes and they are constantly bunching together.

I’m not trying to be Mr. Bad Guy raining on everyone who supports the project because I genuinely want better public transport for Dublin but I just cannot see the benefits of Busconnects over an increased tram network. Dublin is the perfect size for trams and the Luas has shown that people like them so why not?

I do believe an sw metro line would have sufficient demand especially by the 2040s when it is the earliest period it might come on stream - if I was being generous maybe the late 2030s.

The city's population is expanding rapidly. The south inner city and rathmines/harold's cross are busy locations. The outlying areas of Knocklyon, Ballycullen and Tallaght have huge populations of the exact type of people who currently use their cars, but who are likely to use a metro. I would propose the sw metro going up to old bawn to tap in to this part of Tallaght where less people benefit from the Luas currently. Rathfarnham is a big area and again offers a big population who would use the Metro.

I do believe a lot of this line may need to be underground though.

salmocab

The suggested route to Knocklyon isn’t long enough, it needs to go to Tallaght to get the numbers up. Tallaght also makes a good destination with plenty of industry which counterbalances the inbound traffic.
There is no way a luas is being built to sw Dublin. Numbers wise it’s probably that right solution but there just isn’t a practical route.

Qrt

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

I would propose the sw metro going up to old bawn to tap in to this part of Tallaght where less people benefit from the Luas currently.

Not disagreeing with the idea of a southwestern metro going towards the Tallaght direction, but Old Bawn is probably one of the areas best served by the Luas. It's only across the bridge...

I've always been an advocate for any metro to follow the N81.

Kellyconor1982

Qrt wrote: »

Not disagreeing with the idea of a southwestern metro going towards the Tallaght direction, but Old Bawn is probably one of the areas best served by the Luas. It's only across the bridge...

I've always been an advocate for any metro to follow the N81.

You could be right about old bawn. My thinking is Tallaght is essentially a small city and I think a Luas is not enough for it.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we leave Luas and Metro to their appropriate thread, please.

Qrt

Kellyconor1982 wrote: »

You could be right about old bawn. My thinking is Tallaght is essentially a small city and I think a Luas is not enough for it.

Definitely, and that's why I find the proposed A2 route is so vital. The quickest way to get from Tallaght to the City Centre is through Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure and Templeogue. The A2 is basically the 65 but on steroids (or speed, or any sort of stimulating drug). It'll do wonders for the area.

Every 10 mins vs every 2 hours, ‘tis a bit of an improvement.

CatInABox

Inchicore residents met with the NTA to see the updated plans for their area. For context, these are the group that engaged with the NTA, trying to get them to change the Core Corridor plan to save the trees by reducing car access.

This is their reaction to the new plans:

https://twitter.com/lnortonsocial/status/1148682942207713280

Peregrine

https://twitter.com/lnortonsocial/status/1148683945535574017?s=20

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1148665441075826688?s=20

Qrt

Peregrine wrote: »

https://twitter.com/lnortonsocial/status/1148683945535574017?s=20

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1148665441075826688?s=20

Very promising. You can tell how much more grounded and logical the residents of some areas are more than others.

Thrashssacre

Qrt wrote: »

Very promising. You can tell how much more grounded and logical the residents of some areas are more than others.

Why do I have a feeling from the amount of positivity here that the actual transportation improvements of the plan has been absolutely butchered....

CatInABox

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling from the amount of positivity here that the actual transportation improvements of the plan has been absolutely butchered....

Not sure how you can take that from what's been reported. If they're restricting car access to a one way system, then they've kept the two bus lanes. That's the main transport provision along that road dealt with, and the tweets make mention of improved cycling access, so I can't imagine that they've butchered that either.

bk

It will be fun to see if another residents group is now formed to complain about the street becoming one way.

After all that is what happened up in Santry. Residents there were complaining about the new one way system and objecting to it. The NTA seemingly there are now planning to keep it two way, but instead take peoples gardens!

I hope I'm wrong.

Perhaps this might show the way forward in future. Put forward two plans and let residents decide:

Santry: Two way and gardens taken or one way and no garden take?
Inchicore: Two way and take trees or one way and keep trees?

Perhaps a good divide and conquer strategy. Leave residents fight over two different options, rather then leaving them think do nothing is an option.

alentejo

Wait till the pro car lobby get wind of this.

Pete_Cavan

I'd say that there are a lot of solutions out there for most communities that address most (but not all) of their concerns without undermining the transport elements of the plan. The key is to actively engage with the NTA.

dublinman1990

The tender for the 600 new hybrid buses by the NTA has been released online since yesterday.

Press release

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/nta-commences-procurement-process-for-600-hybrid-buses/

Tender notice

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=147642&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

CatInABox

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The tender for the 600 new hybrid buses by the NTA has been released online since yesterday.

Press release

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/nta-commences-procurement-process-for-600-hybrid-buses/

Tender notice

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=147642&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

That tender is closed, so I presume that means the NTA have received all the responses and are now sifting through them.

marno21

NTA have appointed JMP Consulting as Infrastructure Director for the project

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=131258&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=2&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

specialbyte

Big plans in Phibsborough as part of the Core Bus Corridors. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-multimillion-euro-cycle-path-in-north-dublin-included-in-busconnects-plans-1.3970140

cgcsb

closing the NCR to build a tunnel will be quite the interesting outcome of a public consultation

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

closing the NCR to build a tunnel will be quite the interesting outcome of a public consultation

Doubt that it'd ever be fully closed, but restrictions would definitely be needed. Of course, even closing part of the NCR on a rolling basis would cause a lot of hassle.

It'd be worth it though.


Unrelated, but one of the things that really annoyed me about the reaction to the BusConnects plans was the default assumption that the consultation was useless. So many people are astonished that the NTA has actually listened and improved the plans based on feedback, despite the fact that the NTA literally came out and said that these plans were only a draft and changes would be made based on feedback.

CatInABox

More details leaking out about the Core Corridors, this time it's Stoneybatter. They plan to put a bus gate on Prussia St, diverting southbound traffic down the NCR, Infirmary Road, down the quays, and back up BlackHall Place/Manor St.

It's quite funny seeing how anti-everything the Irish Times is. With the previous plans, it was "BusConnects plan will mean Stoneybatter becomes a motorway", now it's "Drivers face 3km diversion". No mention of the benefits of the plan at all, or the environmental/air quality impact of not doing it, or the fact that there's very limited ways in which these improvements can be made.

Dublin motorists face 3km diversion under city bus plan

Dats me

CatInABox wrote: »

More details leaking out about the Core Corridors, this time it's Stoneybatter. They plan to put a bus gate on Prussia St, diverting southbound traffic down the NCR, Infirmary Road, down the quays, and back up BlackHall Place/Manor St.

It's quite funny seeing how anti-everything the Irish Times is. With the previous plans, it was "BusConnects plan will mean Stoneybatter becomes a motorway", now it's "Drivers face 3km diversion". No mention of the benefits of the plan at all, or the environmental/air quality impact of not doing it, or the fact that there's very limited ways in which these improvements can be made.

Dublin motorists face 3km diversion under city bus plan

Funnily enough they seem to.have written two articles, one with a positive framing, one with negative. Both by Olivia Kelly.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/green-plaza-for-stoneybatter-in-busconnects-redesign-1.3971219?mode=amp


This one is the best update so far. BusConnects always promised public realm improvements at a later date which is a lot of what we were getting so far. Here they've shown they're willing to go to the root of the problem with a Bus Gate. It's going to important to be emailing our councilors at the next public consultation to say that we support traffic reduction measures like this.

Qrt

Between this and Inchicore, I’m actually shocked at how these plans are panning out. Actual public real upgrades? In Dublin? Flabbergasted.

I’ll be interested to see how the other contentious areas are dealt with, places like Shankill or Kimmage.

Qrt

Just spotted this too. https://www.q102.ie/news/stoneybatter-traffic-plan-criticised/

Jaysus, will the councillors ever be happy? Side note, I think a massive improvement in the bus service through priority measures can be classed as a “mitigating factor”

CatInABox

The plans that were presented to groups in Phibsborough are on this website, the link is "Bus Connects Presentation to Phizzfest and Community Delegation 7/11/2019" (no idea why they went with an american date format).

See here.

Things that I've noted in it:

They plan to widen the existing bridge over the canal to provide more space for pedestrians, which makes sense in that there's going to be a lot more people crossing there with the Metrolink station there.

The cycle/pedestrian underpass at the library has a span of 15 metres! I had thought that it would be pretty narrow to ease construction/not have the NCR closed for ages, but a 15 metre span makes that a lot harder. Still worth it though.

All in all, the plans look great, in my opinion!

Heartbreak Hank

Pity they can't do anything about the shopping center - am I right in saying that they were proposing incorporating a redevelopment with Dalymount but Tesco wouldn't buy in a the whole thing was scrapped?



The rest of the area will look great with the proposals and to have such a monstrosity on one of the best connected points in the city will be a shame.

cgcsb

The NCR should really be bus only between Mr Tubbs and Spar, with the road narrowed to 1 bus lane and 1 cycle lane each way.

CatInABox

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Pity they can't do anything about the shopping center - am I right in saying that they were proposing incorporating a redevelopment with Dalymount but Tesco wouldn't buy in a the whole thing was scrapped?



The rest of the area will look great with the proposals and to have such a monstrosity on one of the best connected points in the city will be a shame.

In fairness to Tesco, the redevelopment plans would have removed the ability to restock their store, which, as you can imagine, would have been a "minor" inconvenience.

It does look terrible though. It'd be better off they knocked everything and started from scratch, rather than just trying to put a pretty facade on it like the current plans. Waiting until metrolink is open would actually improve the chances of a proper redevelopment, property prices in the area will increase massively.

abcabc123123

The Stoneybatter plan doesn't go far enough; commuter traffic should be restricted and rerouted in both directions to allow for proper cycling infra - the current iteration doesn't provide this.

Still, the NTA proposing traffic restrictions in even 1 direction marks progress.