Dublin - BusConnects

Last Stop

Please have a read of the GDA strategy reports before asking questions that have already been answered
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/West_Corridor_Study.pdf

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/South_East_Corridor_Study.pdf

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/North_West_Corridor_Study.pdf

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

Please have a read of the GDA strategy reports before asking questions that have already been answered
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/West_Corridor_Study.pdf

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/South_East_Corridor_Study.pdf

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/North_West_Corridor_Study.pdf

None of these validate your 2 billion. The closest being Luas b1 which was priced in 2006. 13 years ago. The most recently finished project LCC was nearly 50% more expensive and that's without factoring construction inflation which has sky rocketed

monument

gjim wrote: »

Bus lanes carry more people than general traffic lanes (containing cars) and therefore provide an increase in the capacity of the road space to carry commuters.

Same with cycle lanes.

Forcing people out of their cars by dedicating more road space to buses and safe cycleways will increase the overall capacity of the system.

So no, I don't understand your point here.

This is so key. The claims that BusConnects overall won't result in a car use reduction, just don't stand up.

CatInABox

MJohnston wrote: »

Buddy, hate to tell you this, but whining on a message board isn't really all that much different from sitting idly by.

Yup. Love coming on here and chatting with people about the various projects, but I'm under no illusions about how effective we all at effecting change.

I come on here for the craic really. Hard to find these days though.

CatInABox

I hadn't realised that the NTA were putting all the Community Forums presentations up online.

There's a good few there that I didn't see before, but perhaps I just missed them.

See here.

Sam Russell

I saw a Dublin Bus in green livery branded 'Busconnects'.

Is this the only one or are there more of them? It was in Leinster St/Lincoln Place - did not notice the route number..

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I saw a Dublin Bus in green livery branded 'Busconnects'.

Is this the only one or are there more of them? It was in Leinster St/Lincoln Place - did not notice the route number..

It’s one of the nine hybrids that are on trial with Dublin Bus.

All operating on the 25 group of routes.

LeinsterDub

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s one of the nine hybrids that are on trial with Dublin Bus.

All operating on the 25 group of routes.

Isn't the trial finished these are in normal service now

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Isn't the trial finished these are in normal service now

You are thinking of the demo buses they had before.

This trial is to assess the buses operating in normal service.

There are three different types of bus, with three of each type, and the next fleet purchase (not for delivery until late next year) will be based on this.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

You are thinking of the demo buses they had before.

This trial is to assess the buses operating in normal service.

There are three different types of bus, with three of each type, and the next fleet purchase (not for delivery until late next year) will be based on this.

Good to know.

AndrewJRenko

Deirdre's making up fairy stories again;

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1180464758774009857

Qrt

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Deirdre's making up fairy stories again;

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1180464758774009857

Capel Street isn’t in any of the plans...Christ.

Skatedude

monument wrote: »

This is so key. The claims that BusConnects overall won't result in a car use reduction, just don't stand up.

It can reduce car usage, but the whole plan is fundamentally flawed as it is being done backwards.
Dublin has a HUGE manufacturing industry that runs 24/7 as well as many shift workers in other industries, But public transport primarily runs only part time to suit mon to fri workers.

So many people still need to get to work when public transport isn't running, so need car, or if lucky a bike if they live close enough to work.

Step 1, make public transport available to all or as close as possible before deciding to take peoples driveways off them and cutting up neighbourhoods.

They can add a thousand extra buses tomorrow, but I'll still need my car for work and every job i've had over the last 30 years and so do so many others.

CatInABox

Skatedude wrote: »

Step 1, make public transport available to all or as close as possible before deciding to take peoples driveways off them and cutting up neighbourhoods.

They can add a thousand extra buses tomorrow, but I'll still need my car for work and every job i've had over the last 30 years and so do so many others.

They couldn't add a thousand extra buses tomorrow, as there's no room on our roads. They'd simply get sucked into the same traffic problems that we already have, and it would actually decrease usage because journey times would get longer, not shorter.

donvito99

Skatedude wrote: »

It can reduce car usage, but the whole plan is fundamentally flawed as it is being done backwards.
Dublin has a HUGE manufacturing industry that runs 24/7 as well as many shift workers in other industries, But public transport primarily runs only part time to suit mon to fri workers.

So many people still need to get to work when public transport isn't running, so need car, or if lucky a bike if they live close enough to work.

Step 1, make public transport available to all or as close as possible before deciding to take peoples driveways off them and cutting up neighbourhoods.

They can add a thousand extra buses tomorrow, but I'll still need my car for work and every job i've had over the last 30 years and so do so many others.

I don't understand this point. In your scenario, shift workers need to commute when public transport isn't running i.e. in the early hours when there is no traffic. So let them drive.

The point of the BusConnects road proposals is to offer a much more reliable and fast journey to bus passengers (and a safe route for cyclists) when the roads are clogged at rush hour.

LXFlyer

Skatedude wrote: »

It can reduce car usage, but the whole plan is fundamentally flawed as it is being done backwards.
Dublin has a HUGE manufacturing industry that runs 24/7 as well as many shift workers in other industries, But public transport primarily runs only part time to suit mon to fri workers.

So many people still need to get to work when public transport isn't running, so need car, or if lucky a bike if they live close enough to work.

Step 1, make public transport available to all or as close as possible before deciding to take peoples driveways off them and cutting up neighbourhoods.

They can add a thousand extra buses tomorrow, but I'll still need my car for work and every job i've had over the last 30 years and so do so many others.

There’s always going to be journeys for which public transport will find it very hard to deliver realistic options, especially for orbital journeys. Such journeys are far more individually unique than journeys into the general city centre area, with unique origin and destination points.

Providing frequent public transport along the main orbital routes and linking suburbs towns (as BusConnects network redesign does) goes someway towards delivering better options, but each time you require people to change bus routes the attractiveness of public transport is reduced while compared with a single car journey.

Also for many people in large business parks, where premises can be over 1km from the nearest bus stop, public transport is always going to be a less attractive option, and that’s assuming that there is a direct bus, which won’t be the case for many people.

Public transport and investment in transport infrastructure will always be catered towards the major traffic flows and that’s what we are seeing now.

Any 24 hour routes will be on major radial routes initially, but that requires additional drivers, something the two city bus companies are rather short of
right now.

Also, it is fair to say that weekend frequencies have dramatically increased in recent times and weekend operating hours on many routes extended with much earlier starts. It’s not as Mon-Fri centric as you suggest any more.

machaseh

LXFlyer wrote: »

Also, it is fair to say that weekend frequencies have dramatically increased in recent times and weekend operating hours on many routes extended with much earlier starts. It’s not as Mon-Fri centric as you suggest any more.

Yes but still, when I used to live in clongriffin the first Sunday bus was at 8 AM. That was just about in time for me to make it to work at 9 AM (docklands). And believe me, the first bus of the day was always FULL. Even at the terminus in Clongriffin, there was already a big group of people waiting for the bus, and it would be pretty full closer to town. I have heard from people living in other areas that the first sunday bus would sometimes be too full to get on.

In my opinion Sunday and Bank Holiday services should be operating on Saturday timetables (except nitelink obviously). Also makes everything simpler for everybody, then you only have weekday and saturday timetables, no more separate Sunday/bank holiday timetables.

I now start work at 8 AM, and on Bank Holidays neither the luas nor the 155 bus would get me in work in time. I simply tell my employer that sorry I am always going to be late on a bank holiday as I am dependent on public transportation, as I am medically unable to drive. That is a disgrace in a capital city.

LXFlyer

machaseh wrote: »

Yes but still, when I used to live in clongriffin the first Sunday bus was at 8 AM. That was just about in time for me to make it to work at 9 AM (docklands). And believe me, the first bus of the day was always FULL. Even at the terminus in Clongriffin, there was already a big group of people waiting for the bus, and it would be pretty full closer to town. I have heard from people living in other areas that the first sunday bus would sometimes be too full to get on.

In my opinion Sunday and Bank Holiday services should be operating on Saturday timetables (except nitelink obviously). Also makes everything simpler for everybody, then you only have weekday and saturday timetables, no more separate Sunday/bank holiday timetables.

I now start work at 8 AM, and on Bank Holidays neither the luas nor the 155 bus would get me in work in time. I simply tell my employer that sorry I am always going to be late on a bank holiday as I am dependent on public transportation, as I am medically unable to drive. That is a disgrace in a capital city.

A Saturday timetable on a Sunday or indeed a bank holiday would be massive overkill. The demand isn’t there for that level of frequency through the day.

What is needed are additional early morning departures.

machaseh

LXFlyer wrote: »

A Saturday timetable on a Sunday or indeed a bank holiday would be massive overkill. The demand isn’t there for that level of frequency through the day.

What is needed are additional early morning departures.

On the contrary, it would reduce car traffic and increase public transport ridership on the Sunday. Supply induces demand. People who have the option to drive will not even think of taking the bus on sunday, as it goes only once per hour in many outlying areas of the city. People who do not have the option to drive will either not make the journey or do it at a more convenient time (for example I physically cannot get into work at 8 am on a bank holiday so I will request my shift be changed). Some might take a taxi if there is no other option.

In many areas, there is only 1 bus per hour on the sunday. Think buses like the 27B, 54A, etc. In my opinion every single bus line that runs twice an hour on the saturday should also have this bare minimum frequency on the sunday. And indeed, earlier departure times starting from 7 AM.

tom1ie

The problem with getting a bus into the city centre on a Sunday isn’t just frequency, (but that is a problem) with a family of 2 adults and two kids, to go from Rathfarnham to central bank will cost (3+3+1.30+1.30)x2 =17.20.
I’m an infrequent user so I wouldn’t have a leap card.
How many hours parking can I get in the city centre for 17.20?
Drury street car park offer all day parking for €10 on a Sunday, plus you don’t have to wait on an infrequent bus service, plus you don’t have to walk to the bus.
It’s a no brainer unfortunately.

machaseh

tom1ie wrote: »

The problem with getting a bus into the city centre on a Sunday isn’t just frequency, (but that is a problem) with a family of 2 adults and two kids, to go from Rathfarnham to central bank will cost (3+3+1.30+1.30)x2 =17.20.
I’m an infrequent user so I wouldn’t have a leap card.
How many hours parking can I get in the city centre for 17.20?
Drury street car park offer all day parking for €10 on a Sunday, plus you don’t have to wait on an infrequent bus service, plus you don’t have to walk to the bus.
It’s a no brainer unfortunately.

The main public wouldn't be large families with kids traveling to the city center, but rather the plethora of people who have to work on sundays and bank holidays. I have a reasonably good job but I still have to work most Irish bank holidays as my clients do not have bank holidays on that day.

Also the bus should be free of charge for kids. You can get a leap card at any corner store for a 5er, so you not having a leap card is your problem and not a system problem.

LXFlyer

machaseh wrote: »

On the contrary, it would reduce car traffic and increase public transport ridership on the Sunday. Supply induces demand. People who have the option to drive will not even think of taking the bus on sunday, as it goes only once per hour in many outlying areas of the city. People who do not have the option to drive will either not make the journey or do it at a more convenient time (for example I physically cannot get into work at 8 am on a bank holiday so I will request my shift be changed). Some might take a taxi if there is no other option.

In many areas, there is only 1 bus per hour on the sunday. Think buses like the 27B, 54A, etc. In my opinion every single bus line that runs twice an hour on the saturday should also have this bare minimum frequency on the sunday. And indeed, earlier departure times starting from 7 AM.

Focusing on lower frequency routes isn’t going to be that productive let’s be honest.

The key is getting the frequency on the main corridor routes. Routes like the 54a overlap with more frequent routes for most of their journey and would be carrying fresh air around with a higher frequency on Sundays. The 27b has in the main a higher frequency that once an hour on Sundays.

The main routes on each QBC already have a frequency close to that on Saturdays during the key 12:00-18:00 period. Outside of that it’s fair to say that loadings aren’t massive even with the recent frequency increases.

I’d except from that comment the first buses of the day - they do need to be earlier on Sundays with a city centre arrival on all QBCs of pre-08:00.

I would offer a special service on bank holidays with buses arriving pre-07:00 on each QBC but expecting that on every route is totally unrealistic.

loyatemu

Free public transport on a Sunday would be an interesting experiment. I understand on weekdays there isn't a lot of spare capacity, but I think there is on Sundays, and a combination of cost and low-frequency makes it uncompetitive with the car for families.

LXFlyer

tom1ie wrote: »

The problem with getting a bus into the city centre on a Sunday isn’t just frequency, (but that is a problem) with a family of 2 adults and two kids, to go from Rathfarnham to central bank will cost (3+3+1.30+1.30)x2 =17.20.
I’m an infrequent user so I wouldn’t have a leap card.
How many hours parking can I get in the city centre for 17.20?
Drury street car park offer all day parking for €10 on a Sunday, plus you don’t have to wait on an infrequent bus service, plus you don’t have to walk to the bus.
It’s a no brainer unfortunately.

That’s what having LEAP cards with a pay-as-you-go epurse is for?

The 15b and 16 have both got significant Sunday service increases in the last year - it isn’t a problem anymore.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

Free public transport on a Sunday would be an interesting experiment. I understand on weekdays there isn't a lot of spare capacity, but I think there is on Sundays, and a combination of cost and low-frequency makes it uncompetitive with the car for families.

Have you checked the bus timetables before making the low frequency in Sundays comment? What route are you referring to?

Every QBC now has a significantly higher level of service between 12:00 and 18:00 on Sundays following service expansion in the past year.

Sure, certain low frequency routes may not, but every QBC has at least one if not two routes that have a higher frequency than previously.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

The problem with getting a bus into the city centre on a Sunday isn’t just frequency, (but that is a problem) with a family of 2 adults and two kids, to go from Rathfarnham to central bank will cost (3+3+1.30+1.30)x2 =17.20.
I’m an infrequent user so I wouldn’t have a leap card.
How many hours parking can I get in the city centre for 17.20?
Drury street car park offer all day parking for €10 on a Sunday, plus you don’t have to wait on an infrequent bus service, plus you don’t have to walk to the bus.
It’s a no brainer unfortunately.

I don't see that €10 euro offer on their website . Is it still any option? Cheapest is 16.00 for 7 to 7. Plus you've to sit in traffic to get there , plus you can't have a pint or 2. Getting the bus is a no brainier

loyatemu

LXFlyer wrote: »

Have you checked the bus timetables before making the low frequency in Sundays comment? What route are you referring to?

Every QBC now has a significantly higher level of service between 12:00 and 18:00 on Sundays following service expansion in the past year.

Sure, certain low frequency routes may not, but every QBC has at least one if not two routes that have a higher frequency than previously.

I was mostly thinking of the Dart to Greystones which is less than one an hour on a Sunday. Just checked the 84 and it's also less than hourly and the 84X doesn't run at weekends. Frequency may be OK if you live on a QBC, but not so much if you're further out.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

I was mostly thinking of the Dart to Greystones which is less than one an hour on a Sunday. Just checked the 84 and it's also less than hourly and the 84X doesn't run at weekends. Frequency may be OK if you live on a QBC, but not so much if you're further out.

You do have the 184 though as well, which has a significantly improved Sunday service, every 30 mins which means three buses an hour.

Sunday capacity between Bray and the city has also increased with the 155.

loyatemu

LXFlyer wrote: »

You do have the 184 though as well, which has a significantly improved Sunday service, every 30 mins which means three buses an hour.

Sunday capacity between Bray and the city has also increased with the 155.

not much use if you're in Kilcoole. Look I know some routes have OK frequency on a Sunday, my point was more related to calls for free public transport from some groups and politicians. Sundays would be a good place to trial something like that. Could also be tied into car-free days in the City Centre.

downtheroad

loyatemu wrote: »

Free public transport on a Sunday would be an interesting experiment. I understand on weekdays there isn't a lot of spare capacity, but I think there is on Sundays, and a combination of cost and low-frequency makes it uncompetitive with the car for families.

I lived in Sydney for a few years and their Leap equivalent, Opal, was $2.50 for unlimited public transport on Sundays. That included buses, trains and ferries. Used to get some great day trips done for less than the price of a coffee. A similar venture in Dublin would be very welcome.