Dublin - BusConnects

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

Revised Network Redesign will be published on the 22nd.

Core Bus Corridors phase 2 consultation will be after Christmas. Maybe January.

Park & ride design team setting up in two months.

machaseh

loyatemu wrote: »

there's also the problem of bunching - 3 buses show up, then a huge gap. This is very inefficient and reduces the overall capacity of the system.

Bus bunching happens because the buses in Dublin don't have an actual schedule. I mean, yes there is a schedule when it leaves the terminus, but anything beyond that is just a free for all.

In my country the Netherlands, this doesn't happen (except if there is heavy snow or other incidents of course), because buses run on a schedule throughout their entire route. If the bus arrives at a stop early, it is going to have to wait for a couple of minutes until it's back on schedule. Of course this is only done in locations where waiting doesn't hold up traffic.

cgcsb

machaseh wrote: »

Bus bunching happens because the buses in Dublin don't have an actual schedule. I mean, yes there is a schedule when it leaves the terminus, but anything beyond that is just a free for all.

In my country the Netherlands, this doesn't happen (except if there is heavy snow or other incidents of course), because buses run on a schedule throughout their entire route. If the bus arrives at a stop early, it is going to have to wait for a couple of minutes until it's back on schedule. Of course this is only done in locations where waiting doesn't hold up traffic.

Bunching is caused by buses being held up in road traffic
Separation from road traffic where possible will reduce this

Peregrine

Rathfarnham community forum presentation:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tZxeyCQjYC2tSsNcZ5L_3lmbSBSMzCcK/view?usp=drivesdk

Edit: Sorry, should be available to view now.

CatInABox

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that having prevailed upon the NTA to save the trees and gardens along the Rathfarnham route, Councillor Deirdre Conroy is now complaining about the impacts on drivers.

https://twitter.com/DeirdreConroyIE/status/1185140694471589888

Absolutely shocked. It's almost as if it was never about the trees or the gardens.

salmocab

machaseh wrote: »

Bus bunching happens because the buses in Dublin don't have an actual schedule. I mean, yes there is a schedule when it leaves the terminus, but anything beyond that is just a free for all.

In my country the Netherlands, this doesn't happen (except if there is heavy snow or other incidents of course), because buses run on a schedule throughout their entire route. If the bus arrives at a stop early, it is going to have to wait for a couple of minutes until it's back on schedule. Of course this is only done in locations where waiting doesn't hold up traffic.

I doubt much of the bunching is caused by buses going too fast which is what your talking about, it’s mostly getting caught up and going slow.

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

Core Bus Corridors phase 2 consultation will be after Christmas. Maybe January.

Park & ride design team setting up in two months.

They now say later this year.

"It is important to note that there will be another round of public consultation later this year where the information included in this presentation will be further developed and designed. It is anticipated that the formal planning application to An Bord Pleanála will be made during the middle of 2020."

In the email from the earlier community forums, it says November. So definitely pushed back. Probably December or January.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Bunching is caused by buses being held up in road traffic
Separation from road traffic where possible will reduce this

Bunching is caused by taffic slowing the first bus, so it starts running late. This causes it to pick up extra passengers, so it takes longer to pick up and drop passengers, and having to stop at every stop. This causes more delays. The following bus the has fewer passengers because many got on the bus in front, so the later bus catches up.

This is additive, so buses bunch.

Qrt

nta: ok bus lanes in rathgar the trees might have to go unless you tell us not to

rathgar: save the trees!!

nta: ok the road is gonna be one way so we can save the trees

rathgar: nooooo don’t stop out unfettered vehicular access it’s so sexy aha

Stark

"Is there not some TARDIS technology or something you can use to make the road wider while keeping the trees, the gardens and the two way roads?"

CatInABox

Stark wrote: »

"Is there not some TARDIS technology or something you can use to make the road wider while keeping the trees, the gardens and the two way roads?"

What's worse is the one guy on twitter who basically rubbishes every transport project we can think of, and constantly pushes Hyperloops and Self driving cars. "Dublin doesn't need any of this stuff, we need a 21st century solution".

He's swallowed all of the kool aid that Elon Musk could provide.

Peregrine

CatInABox wrote: »

What's worse is the one guy on twitter who basically rubbishes every transport project we can think of, and constantly pushes Hyperloops and Self driving cars. "Dublin doesn't need any of this stuff, we need a 21st century solution".

He's swallowed all of the kool aid that Elon Musk could provide.

He was at one of the community forum meetings that I was at.

There were a lot of people calling buses obsolete and outdated the other night. They've been brainwashed by the other crowd telling them a metro will make all their problems go away. It stopped after someone mentioned that we'd have to put up a load of 6 storey apartments alongside it to increase the density.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bunching is caused by taffic slowing the first bus, so it starts running late. This causes it to pick up extra passengers, so it takes longer to pick up and drop passengers, and having to stop at every stop. This causes more delays. The following bus the has fewer passengers because many got on the bus in front, so the later bus catches up.

This is additive, so buses bunch.

Does that not increase or at least remain the same under Busconnects?
Yes the CBCs will help close to the city but unless you have bus lanes all the way along the routes, then the same problem exists?
If a spine is made up of 3 routes, and each route runs at 10 minute frequencies they combine to give a 3 minute frequency along the spine. If one bus route is delayed near the start you still have all the problems you mentioned above regarding passengers boarding the first bus (as it’s at 10 minute frequencies) and if that bus is delayed by 3 minutes, two buses will arrive at the spine together?
Yes on some spines there is bus lanes the full length of all routes but you still cannot accurately predict which stop passengers will board at and how many. This means you can’t accurately predict journey times which means that you can’t combine bus routes into a spine because there is too many variables?

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

Does that not increase or at least remain the same under Busconnects?
Yes the CBCs will help close to the city but unless you have bus lanes all the way along the routes, then the same problem exists?
If a spine is made up of 3 routes, and each route runs at 10 minute frequencies they combine to give a 3 minute frequency along the spine. If one bus route is delayed near the start you still have all the problems you mentioned above regarding passengers boarding the first bus (as it’s at 10 minute frequencies) and if that bus is delayed by 3 minutes, two buses will arrive at the spine together?
Yes on some spines there is bus lanes the full length of all routes but you still cannot accurately predict which stop passengers will board at and how many. This means you can’t accurately predict journey times which means that you can’t combine bus routes into a spine because there is too many variables?

You're completely under valuing the effect on the bus lanes and bus priority. With simpler routes its easier to fix or prevent bunching as you can tell the bus behind to ease off. While you can do that now it's much more difficult as you've dozen of routes on the one road

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

Does that not increase or at least remain the same under Busconnects?
Yes the CBCs will help close to the city but unless you have bus lanes all the way along the routes, then the same problem exists?
If a spine is made up of 3 routes, and each route runs at 10 minute frequencies they combine to give a 3 minute frequency along the spine. If one bus route is delayed near the start you still have all the problems you mentioned above regarding passengers boarding the first bus (as it’s at 10 minute frequencies) and if that bus is delayed by 3 minutes, two buses will arrive at the spine together?
Yes on some spines there is bus lanes the full length of all routes but you still cannot accurately predict which stop passengers will board at and how many. This means you can’t accurately predict journey times which means that you can’t combine bus routes into a spine because there is too many variables?

Continuous bus lanes will improve the bus service in all respects. Unlike the Luas, buses can overtake one another and will prove much more reliable in the City Centre with dedicated lanes.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You're completely under valuing the effect on the bus lanes and bus priority. With simpler routes its easier to fix or prevent bunching as you can tell the bus behind to ease off. While you can do that now it's much more difficult as you've dozen of routes on the one road

So 1 bus route being delayed delays all routes on the spine?

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

So 1 bus route being delayed delays all routes on the spine?

No. But 1 delay to a Luas shuts the entirety of the system down.

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

Continuous bus lanes will improve the bus service in all respects. Unlike the Luas, buses can overtake one another and will prove much more reliable in the City Centre with dedicated lanes.

I understand that and have said that, it doesn’t solve the issues further out.
You are seriously suggesting that buses are more reliable than Luas because they can overtake each other?? You’ve completely ignored all the issues I’ve pointed out

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

I understand that and have said that, it doesn’t solve the issues further out.
You are seriously suggesting that buses are more reliable than Luas because they can overtake each other?? You’ve completely ignored all the issues I’ve pointed out

I haven't ignored the issues you've pointed out. Be it Luas or a CBC, any non-heavy rail service is going to experience 'bunching'. You make it out to be some sort of project-stopping problem. It most certainly is not and is the hallmark of a frequent service, the benefits of which far outweigh bunching.

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

No. But 1 delay to a Luas shuts the entirety of the system down.

No! 1 broken down Luas shuts a section of the line down. A delayed Luas does have knock on effects but with
- increasing segregation the further you get from the city centre
- off board ticketing
- fixed stopping pattern
The risk of a Luas getting delayed is significantly less

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

The risk of a Luas getting delayed is significantly less

Have you used the bus service and Luas service in Dublin?

I have never had to walk away from a Bus stop, I get on one of a number of buses (I'm on a spine) and it brings me home reliably to withing +/- 10mins.

When I have tried to get a Luas:

1. I cannot get on one in the mornings
2. I have had to walk to the Bus a half dozen times in the last year as the service has been suspended for technical, operational, protest, traffic issues.

The bus is flexible, frequent and door to door for the vast majority of people in the city.

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

Have you used the bus service and Luas service in Dublin?

I have never had to walk away from a Bus stop, I get on one of a number of buses (I'm on a spine) and it brings me home reliably to withing +/- 10mins.

When I have tried to get a Luas:

1. I cannot get on one in the mornings
2. I have had to walk to the Bus a half dozen times in the last year as the service has been suspended for technical, operational, protest, traffic issues.

The bus is flexible, frequent and door to door for the vast majority of people in the city.

You’ve now completely moved the goalposts.
The question I asked was does Busconnects reduce bunching and the answer is no!
Aren’t you lucky to live on a spine though? If you live further out then you don’t have the luxury of multiple routes

You’ve then compounded your argument by saying that Luas is worse than Bus because
1. it’s over subscribed
2. 6 breakdowns in 360 days (1% of the time)

cgcsb

Last Stop wrote: »

Does that not increase or at least remain the same under Busconnects?
Yes the CBCs will help close to the city but unless you have bus lanes all the way along the routes, then the same problem exists?
If a spine is made up of 3 routes, and each route runs at 10 minute frequencies they combine to give a 3 minute frequency along the spine. If one bus route is delayed near the start you still have all the problems you mentioned above regarding passengers boarding the first bus (as it’s at 10 minute frequencies) and if that bus is delayed by 3 minutes, two buses will arrive at the spine together?
Yes on some spines there is bus lanes the full length of all routes but you still cannot accurately predict which stop passengers will board at and how many. This means you can’t accurately predict journey times which means that you can’t combine bus routes into a spine because there is too many variables?

The vast majority of delays occur on sections of road that will form part of the 16 proposed corridors. Most of the rest of delays occur on orbital roads, not including them now was a mistake in my view, the O bus will be very unreliable with the present infrastructure.

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

The vast majority of delays occur on sections of road that will form part of the 16 proposed corridors. Most of the rest of delays occur on orbital roads, not including them now was a mistake in my view, the O bus will be very unreliable with the present infrastructure.

Yes I understand the benefits of the CBCs and agree they will reduce a large chunk of the delays but with such high frequencies no delays can be allowed.
I completely agree regarding the O corridor and also the W4 route using the M50. Which brings another question, isn’t the whole philosophy of the redesigned routes that interchange is encouraged? The O route is pivotal to this. If reliability cannot be guaranteed on this route the benefits of the revised network are greatly diminished

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

You’ve now completely moved the goalposts.
The question I asked was does Busconnects reduce bunching and the answer is no!
Aren’t you lucky to live on a spine though? If you live further out then you don’t have the luxury of multiple routes

It absolutely reduces bunching despite the increase in frequency and you've yet yo demonstrate otherwise. The proof is in the pudding on existing corridors like the N11 where, despite masses of buses, it works.

You’ve then compounded your argument by saying that Luas is worse than Bus because
1. it’s over subscribed
2. 6 breakdowns in 360 days (1% of the time)

If the Luas didn't cost €60m quid per km, it wouldn't be an issue.

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

It absolutely reduces bunching despite the increase in frequency and you've yet yo demonstrate otherwise. The proof is in the pudding on existing corridors like the N11 where, despite masses of buses, it works.



If the Luas didn't cost €60m quid per km, it wouldn't be an issue.

AGAIN such high frequencies mean that any delays even outside the CBCs will lead to bunching. The N11 buses are prone to bunching!!

Can you provide a source for €60m per km? Are you now saying we should use buses not because it’s the best system but because it’s cheaper than Luas?

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

AGAIN such high frequencies mean that any delays even outside the CBCs will lead to bunching. The N11 buses are prone to bunching!!

You are making this out to be some sort of critical issue. It isn't. The timetables on that route are uniformly maintained.

an you provide a source for €60m per km? Are you now saying we should use buses not because it’s the best system but because it’s cheaper than Luas?

LCC cost as near as makes no difference that per km, and that is with half of construction taking place on an old railway alignment.

I am obviously not saying that. Why are you proposing Luas, because it is cheaper than Metro? Luas is inferior to Metro

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

You are making this out to be some sort of critical issue. It isn't. The timetables on that route are uniformly maintained.



LCC cost as near as makes no difference that per km, and that is with half of construction taking place on an old railway alignment.

I am obviously not saying that. Why are you proposing Luas, because it is cheaper than Metro? Luas is inferior to Metro

If buses get delayed outside the sprines, it decreases the reliability of the spines. How can the timetable be uniformly maintained if there’s delays? That’s a contradiction.

Luas Cross City cost €55m per km! That’s a 10% difference. Arguing that half it was via an old railway alignment can be counteracted by the argument that it also crossed college green and required a new bridge over the Liffey!

I’m proposing luas because the corridors I’ve proposed for Luas do not have the demand to justify metro! They do have the demand to justify Luas and in order to serve this demand by bus requires 2 and sometimes even 3 corridors instead!

Sam Russell

Last Stop wrote: »

If buses get delayed outside the sprines, it decreases the reliability of the spines. How can the timetable be uniformly maintained if there’s delays? That’s a contradiction.

Well if individual buses get delayed, it does not really matter because what is important is nor whether the 08:21 bus arrives at 8:21 or is 5 minutes late. What matters to most passengers is that when they arrive at the stop, the next bus arrives within the projected interval of 10 min, say. Now if the spine root has multiple routes, all with intervals of better than ten minutes, the next bus will be along quickly enough. [I'm thinking of the 46A, 145, and possibly the 39A].

Plus, when buses do bunch, the following bus can leapfrog the one in front and travel quicker as a result, so imporoving the travel time.

The actual schedule does not matter, it is the waiting time and the speed of travel, and how crowded the bus gets.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well if individual buses get delayed, it does not really matter because what is important is nor whether the 08:21 bus arrives at 8:21 or is 5 minutes late. What matters to most passengers is that when they arrive at the stop, the next bus arrives within the projected interval of 10 min, say. Now if the spine root has multiple routes, all with intervals of better than ten minutes, the next bus will be along quickly enough. [I'm thinking of the 46A, 145, and possibly the 39A].

Plus, when buses do bunch, the following bus can leapfrog the one in front and travel quicker as a result, so imporoving the travel time.

The actual schedule does not matter, it is the waiting time and the speed of travel, and how crowded the bus gets.

But say you aimed to get the 8:11 bus and you just missed it. You think fine there’s one in 10 minutes. By the time the delayed 8:21 bus gets there you’ve been waiting 15 minutes! This bus will be busier than usual because it has all the normal 8:21 people and half the 8:31 people.

When it gets to the spine it’s missed it’s slot and there is now a 6 minute gap between buses and then 3 arrive within 3 minutes. The buses ahead become full and people get frustrated. So now with 8:21 just 1 minute ahead of a bus on a spine, these are likely to bunch (8:21 stops at a stop, the one behind doesn’t). Then it gets to the next stop and both buses stop to let passengers off. The bus behind can’t pull in to the stop because the bus in front is there meaning it can’t use the middle doors... more delays.
As it gets close to the city centre, the buses can’t leapfrog each other as people are getting on and off at each stop. If they did leapfrog each other it would be the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
The you have the issue of return journeys. If the 8:21 bus is 5 minutes late, either the driver has to cut him break short or the return leg runs late.

2 of the 3 issues you mentioned in the final sentence (wait time and crowding) are directly linked to buses bunching. While there are benefits to Busconnects and it will improve things, if buses continue to bunch the benefits will be outweighed.