Dublin - BusConnects

Last Stop

SortCrude wrote: »

A single underground metro line could also run at lower frequency to start. It would also have the advantage of not requiring the insane levels of CPOs your proposed routes would have. And it would be a better investment in the long run.
Why is your preference a Luas rather than an underground Metro? Isn't that preference a little cheap and shortsighted?

A metro would probably have more CPO given the size of stations and the fact that Luas could run on street.
Can you point out where there would be insane levels of CPO?
My preference for Luas is that based on current demand, a Luas would have roughly 50% spare capacity and arguably be comfortable for the next 30 years. A metro would struggle to ever reach even half its capacity.

SortCrude

Last Stop wrote: »

A metro would probably have more CPO given the size of stations and the fact that Luas could run on street.

I disagree.

Last Stop wrote: »

Can you point out where there would be insane levels of CPO?

I wasn't cc'ed detailed maps for this proposed infrastructure re-haul that exists in your imagination.

Last Stop wrote: »

My preference for Luas is that based on current demand, a Luas would have roughly 50% spare capacity and arguably be comfortable for the next 30 years. A metro would struggle to ever reach even half its capacity.

Why is 30 years an acceptable time limit for capacity growth. I'd much rather 70 years and I don't like your cost cutting cheap alternative.

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

Can you point out where there would be insane levels of CPO?

The same person flogging a Rathfarnham Luas can't figure out where massive CPO would be required...

Last Stop

SortCrude wrote: »

I disagree.


I wasn't cc'ed detailed maps for this proposed infrastructure re-haul that exists in your imagination.


Why is 30 years an acceptable time limit for capacity growth. I'd much rather 70 years and I don't like your cost cutting cheap alternative.

On what basis do you disagree?

The Lucan line is widely available online
The Rathfarnham Line is shown in a thread just below this one
The UCD Line runs among Adelaide Rd, lesson st and the N11 to UCD.
The Clongriffin Line runs Parnell St - Fairview - Malahide Rd.

30 years is the standard assessment for infrastructure projects. Metrolink and Busconnects will be assessed in opening year 2027 and forecast year 2057 like all road and Luas projects have been too

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

The same person flogging a Rathfarnham Luas can't figure out where massive CPO would be required...

So please enlighten me?

Peregrine

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Does anyone know what time is the revised network redesign being published tomorrow?

No. If I had to guess, I'd say late in the morning or around lunchtime.

bk

I'd strongly agree that Luas is the cheap, cost cutting, option for public transport.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Luas, it is the best we have, but after just 15 years it is already running way over capacity and already needs upgrading to Metro! And we haven't even finished building the 10,000+ new apartments along the green line!

From watching the development of Luas, it is quiet clear that a street running, unsegregated tram, simply isn't good enough to meet the demands of a city of our size.

What we need is Metros. They really are the only serious, long term solution to our problems. Expensive yes, but at least they will last at least 100 years and not just 15 years!

What we badly need to focus on is getting the Metrolink built. It will prove to the people of Dublin that Metro's is the only solution and we will hopefully go onto building more Metro's (along with Dart Expansion and DU of course).

A real public transport network.

BusConnects is completely separate, no matter what else we do, either way we also badly need to improve the bus network throughout the whole city and maximise the use of buses and cycling to interact and support the core "rail" network.

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is about Busconnects.

It is not a thread for Luas, or potential Luas lines, or how to use central reservations on the few roads that are wide enough to have them.

Please confine discussion to Busconnects, its upcoming public consultations, and matters relating to the actual project.

There are plenty of threads for crayon wieldin posters.

Thank you.

Carawaystick

donvito99 wrote: »

The same person flogging a Rathfarnham Luas can't figure out where massive CPO would be required...

No CPO's would be required for Railway land acquisition...
the legal mechanism is a Railway order

Chiparus

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just a thought.

A bus is about 12 metres long and can carry about 70 passengers. A car is about 5 metres long and generally only carries the driver.

So, one bus occupies the road space of 2.5 cars, and carries 28 times as many people in the same road space. If the average speed of commuter traffic is 10 km per hour, a bus will pass you in about one minute, but the cars will take 28 minutes to pass.

Makes you think.

We need to get commuters out of cars and into buses. Maybe they should look at making the buses free and the parking very expensive as an experiment, with a possible congestion charge at the canals.

With no cars on the roads, buses could average two or three times their current speed, which would have the effect of having two or three times as many buses.

Just a thought.

The congestion charge in the port tunnel seems to be very effective.
Charging car 10 euro to cross the canals from 730-930 in the mornings could prevent the need for Bus connects.

cgcsb

Chiparus wrote: »

The congestion charge in the port tunnel seems to be very effective.
Charging car 10 euro to cross the canals from 730-930 in the mornings could prevent the need for Bus connects.

Experience from London shows the charge to be ineffective in the long term and the amount charged is a political football. It's a temporary measure. Permanently removing n street parking and replacing it with bike lanes and wider footpaths is permanent. Slap a tax on work place parking.

machaseh

Anti car measures should only be done in combination with an expansion of public transportation infrastructure and biking infrastructure. Otherwise it's only going to get people angry and that will do no good to our cause of improving public transportation in this city.

I also believe that busconnects corridors should be constructed in such a way that these corridors could relatively easily be converted into LUAS in the not so distant future (say 15-25 years).

Where will the new detailed transit maps of busconnects be published?

Peregrine

machaseh wrote: »

Anti car measures should only be done in combination with an expansion of public transportation infrastructure and biking infrastructure. Otherwise it's only going to get people angry and that will do no good to our cause of improving public transportation in this city.

So in combination with BusConnects?

Chiparus

cgcsb wrote: »

Experience from London shows the charge to be ineffective in the long term and the amount charged is a political football. It's a temporary measure. Permanently removing n street parking and replacing it with bike lanes and wider footpaths is permanent. Slap a tax on work place parking.

Do you have a link to that?

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2019/02/26/london-congestion-charge-what-worked-what-didnt-what-next/

Sam Russell

Bus connects publish revised plans today.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/1022/1084854-bus-connects-dublin/

Zebra3

machaseh wrote: »

Anti car measures should only be done in combination with an expansion of public transportation infrastructure and biking infrastructure. Otherwise it's only going to get people angry and that will do no good to our cause of improving public transportation in this city.

I also believe that busconnects corridors should be constructed in such a way that these corridors could relatively easily be converted into LUAS in the not so distant future (say 15-25 years).

Where will the new detailed transit maps of busconnects be published?

The people who you say will get angry are just those that want to drive their pollution box around wherever they want, right?

LeinsterDub

machaseh wrote: »

Anti car measures should only be done in combination with an expansion of public transportation infrastructure and biking infrastructure. Otherwise it's only going to get people angry and that will do no good to our cause of improving public transportation in this city.

For example a 2 billion investment in bus and other 2 billion for dart. This argument is always anti car measures are fine.... In 20 years. Removing private cars in the city centre would have a instant and massive affect on public transport

machaseh

Zebra3 wrote: »

The people who you say will get angry are just those that want to drive their pollution box around wherever they want, right?

Most people will be more than happy to take high quality public transportation rather than their polluting metal box if the pt option is quick, convenient and comfortable enough. Of course there will always be a minority that you will never get out of the car, but that's on them. They can sit in traffic while the new BusConnect busses zoom by.

machaseh

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bus connects publish revised plans today.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/1022/1084854-bus-connects-dublin/

Great to see that the Howth Road bus corridor will be maintained in the updated plans. Buses such as the 29a, 31 with all its letters, 32 etc. are quite important for the area. From a lot of this route, the DART stations are still a fair bit of walking distance away.

thomasj

here we go!

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign/

im liking Blanchardstowns changes! (pdf format)
https://busconnects.ie/media/1624/blanchardstown-accordian-leaflet-260919-fa-web.pdf

machaseh

I am very much liking the W4 Blanch-Tallaght route, but why is there no service between Blanch and the Airport??! Even if it would run only hourly. Various of the new routes could be extended to the airport (preferably that W4 route so it also gives tallaght a good connection to the airport, 2 times per hour should be more than plenty).

Hurrache

Cross posting from the C&T forum, but I can see parts of D15, notably Hollystown, through which the shuttle from Broombridge Luas to the north west of Dublin 15 ran no longer appears to serve the area, leaving it with no service at all.

machaseh

Further thoughts: Clongriffin - Still no direct bus to the airport. Quite sad. Couldnt the 280 local bus route run clongriffin - R139 - Airport - Swords - Swords bus. park instead? And then make a separate local route from clongriffin to dcu.

devnull

machaseh wrote: »

Further thoughts: Clongriffin - Still no direct bus to the airport. Quite sad. Couldnt the 280 local bus route run clongriffin - R139 - Airport - Swords - Swords bus. park instead? And then make a separate local route from clongriffin to dcu.

Dublin Coach have been granted a license for a commercial route covering the journey.

machaseh

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Coach have been granted a license for a commercial route covering the journey.

That's better than nothing, but why not a public bus. The 280 route could easily take a direct route to the Airport from Clongriffin, and from there continue on to swords and swords business park. Yes it will add a lot of time to the clongriffin - swords journey, but currently there is literally 0 buses on that route (very annoying when I used to live in clongriffin, as the road is also way too dangerous to bike on), so a slower bus with an airport detour is better than nothing.

devnull

machaseh wrote: »

That's better than nothing, but why not a public bus. The 280 route could easily take a direct route to the Airport from Clongriffin, and from there continue on to swords and swords business park. Yes it will add a lot of time to the clongriffin - swords journey, but currently there is literally 0 buses on that route (very annoying when I used to live in clongriffin, as the road is also way too dangerous to bike on), so a slower bus with an airport detour is better than nothing.

Dublin Coach route is:
Clongriffin - Clare Hall - Clonshaugh Business Park - Dublin Airport

Since a license has been granted to a commercial operator, then the NTA for such a route which is similar, would have questions to answer in relation to state aid and state resources being used against a private enterprise being considered unfair competition unless the route was quite different.

I agree there is a need for a bus service though, so lets hope that Dublin Coach get that route up and running soon as they were granted the license a good few months ago.

CatInABox

Disappointed in the H spine, it's essentially the same as it is now, would have like to have seen them do something with the city centre end of it.

Also disappointed with the timeline, 2021 before it starts, 2023 before it's all in place.

machaseh

CatInABox wrote: »

Disappointed in the H spine, it's essentially the same as it is now, would have like to have seen them do something with the city centre end of it.

Also disappointed with the timeline, 2021 before it starts, 2023 before it's all in place.

Yes they could connect the H-spine routes to some of the letterless routes.

For example, the proposed 16 bus (parnell - tallaght) and 94 (parnell - ballymun). Both of these would run even more frequently than these H ' spine' routes (which is a bit strange because weren't the 'spine' routes supposed to be the most frequent ones but ok).

Joker2019

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Coach route is:
Clongriffin - Clare Hall - Clonshaugh Business Park - Dublin Airport

Since a license has been granted to a commercial operator, then the NTA for such a route which is similar, would have questions to answer in relation to state aid and state resources being used against a private enterprise being considered unfair competition unless the route was quite different.

I agree there is a need for a bus service though, so lets hope that Dublin Coach get that route up and running soon as they were granted the license a good few months ago.

Can a commercial route be replaced by a PSO service? It would seem to me it would be better if it was ran as a PSO service with either DB or GAI. I don't think there should be commercial services operating alongside DB and GAI services with similar services in terms of distance and style of operations bar a few exceptions such as the likes of the Swords/Fingal Express or Aircoach which operate a service which is different to an ordinary DB service.

There are some services out there such as the likes of the Finnegan's of Bray operated 143/144 which operate services similar in terms of distance and stops to DB and GAI operated but use different types of buses and a completely different fare structures to DB/GAI operated city services.

devnull

Joker2019 wrote: »

Can a commercial route be replaced by a PSO service? It would seem to me it would be better if it was ran as a PSO service with either DB or GAI.

No, to do so would fall foul of competition and state aid rules, since effectively you'd be taking a private enterprise out of business in order to throw state money at a similar route which if not stopped at local level would result in a claim about state aid under EU Law.

Also if you have this kind of rule there is no incentive to innovate and innovation is something that you really need to keep alive in the sector else a lot of the commercial routes we have today would never have existed if they could just be taken away from them when the state suddenly had an interest in a route it didn't previously.

I don't think there should be commercial services operating alongside DB and GAI services with similar services in terms of distance and style of operations bar a few exceptions such as the likes of the Swords/Fingal Express or Aircoach which operate a service which is different to an ordinary DB service.

Generally commercial services won't get a license if there is already a PSO route that is similar.