Dublin - BusConnects

Sam Russell

Last Stop wrote: »

How can they overtake if the other lanes are full?

They cannot, so they wait.

This point can be addressed quite easily if buses are given priority and cars must give way to them. I see a lot of car drivers who force their way past buses indicating to pull out.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

They cannot, so they wait.

This point can be addressed quite easily if buses are given priority and cars must give way to them. I see a lot of car drivers who force their way past buses indicating to pull out.

So if there is a line of traffic and a bus stop in the middle, the second bus indicates to pull out and the car lets him out, the second bus simply joins the queue of car traffic?

Sam Russell

Last Stop wrote: »

So if there is a line of traffic and a bus stop in the middle, the second bus indicates to pull out and the car lets him out, the second bus simply joins the queue of car traffic?

This is taking silliness to a new low level.

If the cars are stationary, then the 2nd bus waits in line. On the other hand, if the traffic is moving, the the 2nd bus indicates to pull out and the cars must give way. It is not rocket science, it is bus driving. Simples.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

This is taking silliness to a new low level.

If the cars are stationary, then the 2nd bus waits in line. On the other hand, if the traffic is moving, the the 2nd bus indicates to pull out and the cars must give way. It is not rocket science, it is bus driving. Simples.

And on the CBC corridors during morning peak the cars are stationary... hence the need for the CBCs. If there was no traffic, there wouldn’t be an issue.

JohnC.

What happened to this thread being about BusConnects rather than the same ****e over and over and over?

MJohnston

Last Stop wrote: »

If there was no traffic, there wouldn’t be an issue.

Glad to see you've finally come around on the need to remove cars from our roads!

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

Glad to see you've finally come around on the need to remove cars from our roads!

As much as you’ve taken that quote completely out of context, I’ll play along.
Yes you can remove cars when there is sufficient public transport capacity to do so!!
You can argue all you want about it being a chicken and egg situation but it isn’t. If all public transport is full, you’ll simply make traffic queues longer and have more people using bus lanes etc. because of frustration. Not arguing that’s right but with no enforcement it will continue.

The south west corridor report (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/South_East_Corridor_Study.pdf) targets reducing car modal share to 40% plus capturing all growth between now and 2035.
This requires - 1600 trips south of Greystones
- 1700 trips south of Bray
Busconnects - 700 trips south of Greystones
- 1260 trips south of Bray

And it’s a similar scenario on the west corridor ( https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/West_Corridor_Study.pdf). 32% car modal share.
Requires - 1800 trips west of Celbridge
- 3000 trips at Leixlip
Busconnects - 630 trips west of Celbridge
- 1680 trips at Leixlip

Spanish Eyes

Good luck to anyone trying to get on board at the N4/proposed stops at Chapelizod bypass, buses are jammers at Palmerston inbound and all the way outbound. However I suppose increased frequency will help, maybe!

Regarding the proposed stops leading to bunching, surely a two or three bus length yellow box to the immediate right, monitored by camera would allow buses to overtake a stationary one?

MJohnston

Last Stop wrote: »

You can argue all you want about it being a chicken and egg situation but it isn’t.

I see your lack of interest or ability in reading posts hasn't changed, because I clearly said the idea that it's a chicken and the egg scenario is nonsense. There's only one workable approach, and that's to remove cars to increase public transport capacity, quality, frequency, and reliability.

The only alternative is sticking your head in the sand or somewhere else.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

I see your lack of interest or ability in reading posts hasn't changed, because I clearly said the idea that it's a chicken and the egg scenario is nonsense. There's only one workable approach, and that's to remove cars to increase public transport capacity, quality, frequency, and reliability.

The only alternative is sticking your head in the sand or somewhere else.

And I could say likewise about you. I’ve just pointed out that Busconnects can’t even handle 50% modal share.
It’s all well and good saying ban cars but where do all the car drivers go? I’ve asked you this plenty of times now and the best we’ve come up with is buy more buses.
We now know that even with more buses, we’re not even going to meet half our target figures before we exceed CBC capacity!!

MJohnston

Last Stop wrote: »

And I could say likewise about you. I’ve just pointed out that Busconnects can’t even handle 50% modal share.
It’s all well and good saying ban cars but where do all the car drivers go? I’ve asked you this plenty of times now and the best we’ve come up with is buy more buses.
We now know that even with more buses, we’re not even going to meet half our target figures before we exceed CBC capacity!!

Buddy, you're basing all your calculations on CARS STILL BEING ON THE ROAD. What does QBC capacity look like when selfish arseholes aren't clogging them up like immovable turds in an old sewage pipe?

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

Buddy, you're basing all your calculations on CARS STILL BEING ON THE ROAD. What does QBC capacity look like when selfish arseholes aren't clogging them up like immovable turds in an old sewage pipe?

Still 30 buses per hour buddy. Buses still have to stop at each stop if requested to do so. You could have 3 lanes of buses and you’d still have this problem. How does a bus get from lane 3 to a stop when requested to do so?

Don’t let YOU not needing to drive affect your opinion. I don’t need to drive but understand why a large proportion of people do need to. We need to put in place realistic alternatives and then we can start looking at banning cars. If you have a bus or other mode with space on it you have no excuse, currently we don’t have ANY spare public transport capacity across all modes!!

MJohnston

And we can't add capacity because there are cars clogging up the roads. Round and round we go on your idiotic merry go round. Give me any other solution that can be implemented within 2 years or less? Give me any other solution that can be implemented within FIVE years or less?

The car bans need to start ASAP on the Quays, and then we can work outwards from there. We can't wait for BusConnects to start this either.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

And we can't add capacity because there are cars clogging up the roads. Round and round we go on your idiotic merry go round. Give me any other solution that can be implemented within 2 years or less? Give me any other solution that can be implemented within FIVE years or less?

The car bans need to start ASAP on the Quays, and then we can work outwards from there. We can't wait for BusConnects to start this either.

We can’t add capacity on bus corridors because
1) we need to buy more buses
2) the corridors coming into the city will exceed capacity and grind to a halt
There is potential to add more capacity to heavy rail in 2 years but that’s off-topic.

I’ve already told you that there is no quick fix. Banning cars does nothing!! Even calling it a solution is wrong.
Please tell, as I ask for the umpteenth time, if you ban cars in the morning where do those that currently drive go?

MJohnston

No answer to my question about other short term solutions? You're dodging like a politician.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

No answer to my question about other short term solutions? You're dodging like a politician.

I’ve told you... there is no quick fix. Minimum lead in time 2 years. Your turn to answer the question...

MJohnston

What happens in 2 years to solve anything?

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

What happens in 2 years to solve anything?

Additional rail stock comes online. And you’ve accused me of not reading posts and dodging questions

MJohnston

Additional rail stock? That's it? Even by Irish Rail's own estimates, that'll have a tiny impact. Along existing railway lines.

I definitely agree that if we get additional DARTs along the Bray line, we should ban cars from the parallel roads,

Last Stop

You’ve now brought this way off topic and still have answered the question.

To bookend this debate, the bottom line is that Busconnects does not have the capacity to reduce the number of cars on the roads and even if it did, banning cars would have no impact on the capacity of the CBCs

SortCrude

Last Stop wrote: »

the bottom line is that Busconnects does not have the capacity to reduce the number of cars on the roads

An improved bus network will lead to more people opting to commute via bus. How is that not blindingly obvious?

Chiparus

SortCrude wrote: »

An improved bus network will lead to more people opting to commute via bus. How is that not blindingly obvious?

People who live on Luas lines , still drive to work.
Bus connects will make commuting by car faster as the cars will not have to share the lane with buses.

SortCrude

Chiparus wrote: »

People who live on Luas lines , still drive to work.

The breakdown for Dublin commuters in 2016 was:

• 44.6% - Car
• 13.6% - Bus
• 7.9% - Train, DART or Luas

If BusConnects increases bus usage by a couple of percentage points, it'll be a huge success. There still be people commuting by car.

Chiparus wrote: »

Bus connects will make commuting by car faster as the cars will not have to share the lane with buses.

Yes I suppose so. There'd also be less cars on the road.

Last Stop

SortCrude wrote: »

An improved bus network will lead to more people opting to commute via bus. How is that not blindingly obvious?

There’s 14 proposed core routes into the city (as G and H end in he city centre)
Let’s say the average has 30 buses per hour during peak. That’s a total of 29,400.

Currently Dublin Bus carries 35,000 during morning peak. Let’s say the breakdown of that is 70% radial on the spines, 20% local/orbital and 10% peak only. So the spines take 80% of this which is 28,000. Therefore the new routes will have a spare capacity of 1,400 on day one or 100 people per spine.

When you take into consideration those who will shift from different modes such as walking + cycling due to the improved network, the simply isn’t capacity to reduce the number of cars and that’s on day one.

If you assume no modal shift and a growth factor of 2%, the corridors will be at full capacity in 3 years... a full 4 years before Busconnects is due to finish.
How is that not blindingly obvious?

SortCrude

Last Stop wrote: »

When you take into consideration those who will shift from different modes such as walking + cycling due to the improved network, the simply isn’t capacity to reduce the number of cars and that’s on day one.

That's hilarious. You'll accept people switching from cycling or walking, but not from driving. Don't forget BusConnects will also improve cycling infrastructure.

Last Stop wrote: »

Currently Dublin Bus carries 35,000 during morning peak. Let’s say the breakdown of that is 70% radial on the spines, 20% local/orbital and 10% peak only. So the spines take 80% of this which is 28,000. Therefore the new routes will have a spare capacity of 1,400 on day one or 100 people per spine.
If you assume no modal shift and a growth factor of 2%, the corridors will be at full capacity in 3 years... a full 4 years before Busconnects is due to finish.

You're not thinking of this in the right way.
If Dublin bus needed to be able to carry 70,000 people during morning peak, the solution would be to ............. double the bus fleet.
Current demand is linked to the quality of the network. Improve the quality of the network and you'll get a situation where more buses need to be purchased to deal with the increase in demand.

Last Stop

SortCrude wrote: »

That's hilarious. You'll accept people switching from cycling or walking, but not from driving. Don't forget BusConnects will also improve cycling infrastructure.

I’m just giving you an idea of the issues. Even if all 100 people moved from cars, the % shift is minimal!
We’re now back to justifying BUSconnects by saying it will improve cycle infrastructure.

You're not thinking of this in the right way.
If Dublin bus needed to be able to carry 70,000 people during morning peak, the solution would be to ............. double the bus fleet.
Current demand is linked to the quality of the network. Improve the quality of the network and you'll get a situation where more buses need to be purchased to deal with the increase in demand.

How many times do I have to say it, the infrastructure can’t handle more buses. I’ve said an average of 30 buses per hour, that’s the maximum capacity. To get an average of 30, a number of corridors are exceeding capacity on day one. These are likely to be the ones with the most growth.

MJohnston

And they'll have more capacity when there aren't seas of cars blocking up the QBCs. Even a single point of interaction with private traffic can seriously diminish the capacity of a bus route. Most spinal routes pass through the city centre where interactions are at their worst.

SortCrude

Last Stop wrote: »

I’ve said an average of 30 buses per hour, that’s the maximum capacity. To get an average of 30, a number of corridors are exceeding capacity on day one. These are likely to be the ones with the most growth.

A very high frequency bus service is greater than 60 buses per hour. Can you provide a source for this 30 bus/hr maximum capacity?

Last Stop

SortCrude wrote: »

A very high frequency bus service is greater than 60 buses per hour. Can you provide a source for this 30 bus/hr maximum capacity?

You’re joking right?
How in gods name can a QBC handle 60 buses per hour? A driverless segregated metro would struggle with anything over 40 per hour. Can you provide a source?
If you read my previous posts I’ve already provided my source but for clarity here it is again, the NTA core bus network report https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Core_Bus_Network_Report.pdf

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

And they'll have more capacity when there aren't seas of cars blocking up the QBCs. Even a single point of interaction with private traffic can seriously diminish the capacity of a bus route. Most spinal routes pass through the city centre where interactions are at their worst.

How does that allow more than 30 buses per hour? The Core Bus Network report envisages continuous bus lanes