Dublin - BusConnects

Dyr

LXFlyer wrote: »

Not quite. Far fewer people will be using the driver’s machine as it will be the equivalent of the 1-3 stages fare.

Everyone else will use the right hand validator.

BTW is there anything from the NTA confirming this?

L1011

If we're keeping the stage system that is effectively invisible to users a lot of people won't know if they're going 3 or less to begin with.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

BTW is there anything from the NTA confirming this?

The various fare determination reports for the past few years and the BusConnects plan both indicate that there will be a 90 minute multi-trip and multi-mode fare, and that there will also be a short distance fare so as not to unfairly penalise those who currently pay the 1-3 stage fare.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

If we're keeping the stage system that is effectively invisible to users a lot of people won't know if they're going 3 or less to begin with.

I think most people will have a fair idea if they’re only taking a very short trip.

LeinsterDub

There has been some comment about the cost BusConnects and if it represents value or not in the past 2 weeks the government has announced nearly a billion for rural roads.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There has been some comment about the cost BusConnects and if it represents value or not in the past 2 weeks the government has announced nearly a billion for rural roads.

What rural roads? You mean the 3 dual carriageways which would suggest an AADT of over 10,000?

The debate as to whether Busconnects is value for money is continuing to grow as the price remains the same and there is less bus lanes proposed and less change to the other big drivers of delays in the current system.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

What rural roads? You mean the 3 dual carriageways which would suggest an AADT of over 10,000?

The debate as to whether Busconnects is value for money is continuing to grow as the price remains the same and there is less bus lanes proposed and less change to the other big drivers of delays in the current system.

10,000 compared to 500,000 +. Money spent of lowering our carbon emissions compared to money spent raising it. Money spent on increasing car dependecy compared to money spent to decrease it. No updates costings have been released so I don't know how you can claim its price remains unchanged.

sharper

Bambi wrote: »

NTA want to CPO a sizeable chunk of the city

If you think the BusConnects CPO is a sizeable chunk of the city you're never going to be happy with any transport improvement scheme.

AngryLips

Bambi wrote: »

They'll still have driver interactions? If that's the case they may as well throw their hat at it, NTA want to CPO a sizeable chunk of the city but not address the biggest delay on bus journeys that is entirely within their control.

Well if you only have two fare types and two ticket readers then you won't have driver interaction because the person tagging on at the driver's side will automatically be deducted the shorter fare.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

10,000 compared to 500,000 +. Money spent of lowering our carbon emissions compared to money spent raising it. Money spent on increasing car dependecy compared to money spent to decrease it. No updates costings have been released so I don't know how you can claim its price remains unchanged.

10,000 is hardly a rural road though? Where are you getting 500,000 from?

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

10,000 is hardly a rural road though? Where are you getting 500,000 from?

Quid pro quo www.thejournal.ie/public-transport-figures-2018-4423861-Jan2019
It's currently 320k. And bus connects is expected to to lead to a 50% increase but I'm happy to accept 320k as a base
Where are you getting 10,000 from?


So 10000 is 5,000 in each direction. Which is 208 cars per hour. Or 2 or 3 buses. That's certainly worth several hundred million

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Quid pro quo www.thejournal.ie/public-transport-figures-2018-4423861-Jan2019
It's currently 320k. And bus connects is expected to to lead to a 50% increase but I'm happy to accept 320k as a base
Where are you getting 10,000 from?


So 10000 is 5,000 in each direction. Which is 208 cars per hour. Or 2 or 3 buses. That's certainly worth several hundred million

Where does it say that Busconnects will increase it by 50%. If it increases numbers by 10% it will be pushing full capacity!

10,000 is the minimum threshold for dual carriageways. Each of the roads you’ve pointed out exceeds this hence the cost. On a per km basis, Busconnects is more expensive and when you consider on some parts there is little changes it gets even more expensive.

The roads you’ve mentioned have gone through full planning and cost benefit analysis. Busconnects has done neither of the above.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

Where does it say that Busconnects will increase it by 50%. If it increases numbers by 10% it will be pushing full capacity!

10,000 is the minimum threshold for dual carriageways. Each of the roads you’ve pointed out exceeds this hence the cost. On a per km basis, Busconnects is more expensive and when you consider on some parts there is little changes it gets even more expensive.

The roads you’ve mentioned have gone through full planning and cost benefit analysis. Busconnects has done neither of the above.

Links please. I refuse to have a conversation with you when all your figures are pulled out of thin air

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Links please. I refuse to have a conversation with you when all your figures are pulled out of thin air

I await your links

CatInABox

Good news everyone!

FF have decided to add Deirdre Conroy onto the ticket in Dublin Rathdown. As one of the biggest anti-BusConnects campaigners around, I hope she loses her deposit.


https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1190014083984179206

Carawaystick

I don't see any bus connection between DB/GAI bus routes and BÉ routes. Nothing on the Derry road, or connecting to the 101 or the local route in Balbriggan

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

I await your links

I gave you one.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I gave you one.

To support your claim that Busconnects will increase passenger numbers by 50%? I don’t think so

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

To support your claim that Busconnects will increase passenger numbers by 50%? I don’t think so

We are still discussing the daily usage. We'll move on to the second set of debated figures when we've settled the first set

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We are still discussing the daily usage. We'll move on to the second set of debated figures when we've settled the first set

So no source?

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

So no source?

https://busconnects.ie/news/busconnects-can-increase-bus-passenger-numbers-by-50-nta/

Your turn again

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://busconnects.ie/news/busconnects-can-increase-bus-passenger-numbers-by-50-nta/

Your turn again

All of the proposed roads have demand above the capacity of a single carriageway road which according to this https://www.tiipublications.ie/library/DN-GEO-03031-06.pdf has a capacity of 11,000
To clarify AADT is not evenly divided by 24 hours a day as you have tried to do.

Now let’s look at costs
N5
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/34566-contract-signed-for-241-million-n5-road-from-westport-to-turlough/amp
Length: 20km
Cost: €240m
Cost per km: €12m

N21
https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/490169/council-welcomes-government-s-green-light-for-new-450m-county-limerick-road.html
Length: 31km
Cost: €450m
Cost per km: €14.5m

N22
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/work-to-start-within-weeks-on-280-million-macroom-bypass-says-minister-1.4057019%3fmode=amp
Length: 22km
Cost: €280m
Cost per km: €13m

Busconnects
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/busconnects-compensation-gardens-4339627-Nov2018/%3famp=1

Clongriffin
Length: 10km (1 way) 5km (2 way)
Cost: €100-€150m
Cost per km (2 way): €20-€30m

Blanchardstown
Length: 8km (1 way) 4km (2 way)
Cost: €150-€170m
Cost per km (2 way): €37.5-€42.5m

Swords
Length: 12km (1 way) 6km (2 way)
Cost: €100-€150m
Cost per km (2 way): €16-€25m

Lucan
Length: 10km (1 way) 5km (2 way)
Cost: €80-€120m
Cost per km (2 way): €16-€24m

bk

I suppose the issue is that we have already spent 12 billion on motorways through rural areas over the last 20 years and only about 1.5 billion on public transport infrastructure (mostly Luas) in the last 20 years.

There is a very clear bad imbalance there.

No one is saying that we shouldn't be investing in the motorways. But we should have been spending WAY more on public transport infrastructure over the past 20 years and the motorway investments could have been spread out over a longer time period.

Last Stop

bk wrote: »

I suppose the issue is that we have already spent 12 billion on motorways through rural areas over the last 20 years and only about 1.5 billion on public transport infrastructure (mostly Luas) in the last 20 years.

There is a very clear bad imbalance there.

No one is saying that we shouldn't be investing in the motorways. But we should have been spending WAY more on public transport infrastructure over the past 20 years and the motorway investments could have been spread out over a longer time period.

You’ve suggested that the inter-urban roads are serving only rural areas because they pass through them.
There are plenty of people saying we shouldn’t be investing in motorways and bemoaning the costs.

Completely agree we should be investing more in public transport but that should not be at the expense of necessary roads. Just because we have underinvested in PT in the past 20 years and invested a reasonable chunk of money in roads does not mean that we should now stop building roads. We should invest more in PT

LeinsterDub

You've still non given me a link that shows either the current or expected usage of any of these roads. So what if single carriage roads have the capacity shown. You've not shown these roads aren't a white elephant or simply pork barrel politics the likes of which Irish politicians are well known for

Last Stop wrote: »

Now let’s look at costs
N5
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/34566-contract-signed-for-241-million-n5-road-from-westport-to-turlough/amp
Length: 20km
Cost: €240m
Cost per km: €12m

N21
https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/490169/council-welcomes-government-s-green-light-for-new-450m-county-limerick-road.html
Length: 31km
Cost: €450m
Cost per km: €14.5m

N22
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/work-to-start-within-weeks-on-280-million-macroom-bypass-says-minister-1.4057019%3fmode=amp
Length: 22km
Cost: €280m
Cost per km: €13m

Busconnects
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/busconnects-compensation-gardens-4339627-Nov2018/%3famp=1

Clongriffin
Length: 10km (1 way) 5km (2 way)
Cost: €100-€150m
Cost per km (2 way): €20-€30m

Blanchardstown
Length: 8km (1 way) 4km (2 way)
Cost: €150-€170m
Cost per km (2 way): €37.5-€42.5m

Swords
Length: 12km (1 way) 6km (2 way)
Cost: €100-€150m
Cost per km (2 way): €16-€25m

Lucan
Length: 10km (1 way) 5km (2 way)
Cost: €80-€120m
Cost per km (2 way): €16-€24m

Wall of figures proving a point I didn't make nor contest.

Why are you talking about cost per km of course it's cheaper to build on green fields. My point was the cost versus the number of people who will benefit. The cost versus the environmental impact, the cost versus increased car dependency

Last Stop wrote: »

All of the proposed roads have demand above the capacity of a single carriageway road which according to this https://www.tiipublications.ie/library/DN-GEO-03031-06.pdf has a capacity of 11,000
To clarify AADT is not evenly divided by 24 hours a day as you have tried to
.

I'm aware of the concept of rush hour thanks

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

You’ve suggested that the inter-urban roads are serving only rural areas because they pass through them.
There are plenty of people saying we shouldn’t be investing in motorways and bemoaning the costs.

Completely agree we should be investing more in public transport but that should not be at the expense of necessary roads. Just because we have underinvested in PT in the past 20 years and invested a reasonable chunk of money in roads does not mean that we should now stop building roads. We should invest more in PT

Perhaps if god forbid we put more than buttons into PT some of these roads wouldn't be necessary? Perhaps we should have an order of priority of these necessary roads such as Cork - Limerick instead of the entirely over engineering roads where a 2-1 would.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You've still non given me a link that shows either the current or expected usage of any of these roads. So what if single carriage roads have the capacity shown. You've not shown these roads aren't a white elephant or simply pork barrel politics the likes of which Irish politicians are well known for

The roads are designed to TII standards.
Do you have proof that they are not?
The standards specify the road cross section based on predicted demand.

Wall of figures proving a point I didn't make nor contest.

Why are you talking about cost per km of course it's cheaper to build on green fields. My point was the cost versus the number of people who will benefit. The cost versus the environmental impact, the cost versus increased car dependency

Your blanket request for links included my statement that Busconnects costs more per km. Again the roads have been through a cost benefit analysis process. One of the main drivers for building the roads is safety, which you’ve neglected to mention

I'm aware of the concept of rush hour thanks

Which would explain why you suggested that the roads would cater for 208 cars per hour (which is conveniently 5000/24 per direction)

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Perhaps if god forbid we put more than buttons into PT some of these roads wouldn't be necessary? Perhaps we should have an order of priority of these necessary roads such as Cork - Limerick instead of the entirely over engineering roads where a 2-1 would.

How does spending on a 2bn PT project in Dublin affect the requirement for 3 road projects on the west coast?
There is an order of priority. The M20 cost is 1bn on its own which influences its place on the priority list.
Please provide a link to support your statement that the roads are over engineered and a 2+1 (which has been removed for the standards based on the terrible safety record on the likes of the N24) would be sufficient?

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

The roads are designed to TII standards.
Do you have proof that they are not?
The standards specify the road cross section based on predicted demand.




Your blanket request for links included my statement that Busconnects costs more per km. Again the roads have been through a cost benefit analysis process. One of the main drivers for building the roads is safety, which you’ve neglected to mention



Which would explain why you suggested that the roads would cater for 208 cars per hour (which is conveniently 5000/24 per direction)

Another strawman. I never claimed anything about the road standards
I didn't make a blanket request for links I asked you for links to the facts and figures you so often of. Since you seem to misunderstand what I want you to provide is a link which will show either the current daily usage of one of these roads

I don't deny averaging out the usage over 24 hours. What's the problem with it? I did the same for the bus.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

How does spending on a 2bn PT project in Dublin affect the requirement for 3 road projects on the west coast?
There is an order of priority. The M20 cost is 1bn on its own which influences its place on the priority list.
Please provide a link to support your statement that the roads are over engineered and a 2+1 (which has been removed for the standards based on the terrible safety record on the likes of the N24) would be sufficient?

Because we don't have a infinite amount of money. And as you so cleared illustrated project with higher priority are being skipped because you can buy more votes with 190 million here and 200 their. I don't have a link for that it's my opinion which unlike facts and figures don't require referencing. I can't seem to find any details of this terrible safety record on Google