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Dublin - BusConnects

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    #2342
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Another strawman. I never claimed anything about the road standards
    You asked for links to show the road has demand over 10,000. The fact it is being build as a dual carriageway suggests this. Do you have any proof that this is not the case.
    I didn't make a blanket request for links I asked you for links to the facts and figures you so often of. Since you seem to misunderstand what I want you to provide is a link which will show either the current daily usage of one of these roads
    You literally quoted my post and said “links please”. Current AADT figures can be found here
    https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6
    I don't deny averaging out the usage over 24 hours. What's the problem with it? I did the same for the bus.

    Why though? The biggest factor is rush hour (you’re aware of this concept) and this drives the demand.
    You could have 101,000 people use a road over 24 hours but if 100,000 use it during rush hour then you design for 100,000.


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    #2343
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Because we don't have a infinite amount of money. And as you so cleared illustrated project with higher priority are being skipped because you can buy more votes with 190 million here and 200 their. I don't have a link for that it's my opinion which unlike facts and figures don't require referencing. I can't seem to find any details of this terrible safety record on Google

    Where did I illustrate that? I would appreciate if you didn’t put words in my mouth.
    Ahhh so your opinion is that we should build one project over another? I believe I got slated for that approach and asked to provide facts and figures. Funny that.
    The design reports for all the roads are available online. These have details of the roads accident history (not just deaths but serious injuries)


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    #2344
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Y
    https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6



    Finally! Thanks you. So now we can move on to let's say 45000 (this is a guess happy to take your figure on this) journeys per day for just under a billion versus half a million for just over double it.


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    #2345
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Where did I illustrate that? I would appreciate if you didn’t put words in my mouth.
    Ahhh so your opinion is that we should build one project over another? I believe I got slated for that approach and asked to provide facts and figures. Funny that.
    The design reports for all the roads are available online. These have details of the roads accident history (not just deaths but serious injuries)

    Look. I'll attempt to build a bridge here. Your an extremely knowledgeable poster who seems to have lots of facts and figures on hand. This is great, however not all of us have such knowledge or the time to be that knowledgeable. When others and I ask you for a link or a reference it's not to dispute your facts or figures but to establish a base of known truth and accepted facts which we can all agree with.

    For example I disagree 1 billion on a road for circa 45,000 journeys represents value when compared to half a million journeys for a little over double.


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    #2346
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Finally! Thanks you. So now we can move on to let's say 45000 (this is a guess happy to take your figure on this) ourneys per day for just under a billion versus half a million for just over double it.

    You’re now completely contradicting the point you made earlier to justify the higher cost per km by using a single metric (journeys) to compare projects.
    All of the roads projects have a positive cost benefit ratio. If you have an issue with the criteria used in that assessment, I suggest you take it up with TII or the Dept. Of Transport.

    I’d also like to add that the Adare bypass has been cleverly used as the route to Foynes meaning it gets EU funding, reducing the cost to the state.


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    #2347
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You’ve suggested that the inter-urban roads are serving only rural areas because they pass through them.
    There are plenty of people saying we shouldn’t be investing in motorways and bemoaning the costs.

    I'm not saying that!

    What I'm saying is that we massively overfocused on the intercity motorway network, building way over-engineered roads, at the expense of a greater need to invest in public transport infrastructure. And we continue to do so.

    Imagine if rather then spending 12 billion on motorways over the past 15 years. We had instead spent 6 billion on Motorways and 6 billion building Metro North and Dart Underground instead, all complete by now and instead talking about spending the next 6b to complete the motorway network. I think we would be in far better shape now.


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    #2348
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Look. I'll attempt to build a bridge here. Your an extremely knowledgeable poster who seems to have lots of facts and figures on hand. This is great, however not all of us have such knowledge or the time to be that knowledgeable. When others and I ask you for a link or a reference it's not to dispute your facts or figures but to establish a base of known truth and accepted facts which we can all agree with.

    For example I disagree 1 billion on a road for circa 45,000 journeys represents value when compared to half a million journeys for a little over double.

    While your complements of my knowledge are appreciated, your attempt to build a bridge only after you were backed into a corner has not gone unnoticed.

    I cannot agree with the rationale behind your request for links and references. All of the links I posted are easily found by a simple google search. If you have enough time to post on boards, you have enough time to do that.

    The fact that you then tried to manipulate the figures provided to influence your argument suggests little interest in establishing a base.

    I think everyone here shares your frustration about the quality of all transport in Dublin and in particular public transport. The solution to that is to invest in public transport projects. This shouldn’t turn into a debate about Dublin vs the rest of Ireland, the real debate should be about prioritising infrastructure over tax cuts.


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    #2349
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    bk wrote: »
    I'm not saying that!

    What I'm saying is that we massively overfocused on the intercity motorway network, building way over-engineered roads, at the expense of a greater need to invest in public transport infrastructure. And we continue to do so.

    Imagine if rather then spending 12 billion on motorways over the past 15 years. We had instead spent 6 billion on Motorways and 6 billion building Metro North and Dart Underground instead, all complete by now and instead talking about spending the next 6b to complete the motorway network. I think we would be in far better shape now.

    I think you’re seriously underestimating the impact of the motorway network (which is arguably still incomplete). Road deaths have dropped from over 400 in 2001 to below 150 in 2018. Yes there are other factors but the motorway network is one of the key drivers of this drop.

    It’s also worth pointing out that it’s difficult to decide which roads shouldn’t have been build after the fact. The M9 was arguably the least justified of the inter-urbans and has figures above the M7 and M8 on sections.

    Then you have to consider that 2 projects (M50 and M3) cost €1bn each! That’s 1/3 of your revised budget gone. While PT should have been prioritised, the need for both these schemes would arguably still have been present.


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    #2350
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    .

    I cannot agree with the rationale behind your request for links and references. All of the links I posted are easily found by a simple google search. If you have enough time to post on boards, you have enough time to do that.

    They aren't simply found on Google and the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If you've enough time to post numerous facts and figures you've enough time to add a quick reference. You don't have to do it all the time but why do you make a song and dance out of it when asked.


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    #2351
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You’re now completely contradicting the point you made earlier to justify the higher cost per km by using a single metric (journeys) to compare projects.

    I've never said anything about cost per km


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    #2352
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    They aren't simply found on Google and the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If you've enough time to post numerous facts and figures you've enough time to add a quick reference. You don't have to do it all the time but why do you make a song and dance out of it when asked.

    Literally all of the links I provided today were found in the top 5 google searches.

    I am the only one being asked to provide links. Other users have even asked me to provide more than one link because they didn’t like what the first one said.

    If you do not believe the figures are right check it out for yourself instead of making a big song and dance about it


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    #2353
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I've never said anything about cost per km
    Ehhhhh
    Why are you talking about cost per km of course it's cheaper to build on green fields. My point was the cost versus the number of people who will benefit. The cost versus the environmental impact, the cost versus increased car dependency


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    #2354
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Ehhhhh

    Ehhh I suggest you re-read that. It doesn't say what you think it does


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    #2355
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Literally all of the links I provided today were found in the top 5 google searches.

    I am the only one being asked to provide links. Other users have even asked me to provide more than one link because they didn’t like what the first one said.

    If you do not believe the figures are right check it out for yourself instead of making a big song and dance about it

    Because you knew the keywords to search for,
    I've tried in the past to find your figures and was unable to.


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    #2356
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Ehhh I suggest you re-read that. It doesn't say what you think it does

    You’re gong to have to explain this one to me?
    I pointed out that Busconnects is more expensive per km that the roads (as I understood you requested me to do)
    You then asked why I was talking about cost per km and not other metrics.
    You then tried to say Busconnects was better than road projects based on a single metric (journey numbers).
    I then explained you were contradicting yourself in reference to your claim about cost per km.
    You then somehow claimed that you never said anything about cost per km.

    What am I missing here?


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    #2357
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You’re gong to have to explain this one to me?
    I pointed out that Busconnects is more expensive per km that the roads (as I understood you requested me to do)
    You then asked why I was talking about cost per km and not other metrics.
    You then tried to say Busconnects was better than road projects based on a single metric (journey numbers).
    I then explained you were contradicting yourself in reference to your claim about cost per km.
    You then somehow claimed that you never said anything about cost per km.

    What am I missing here?

    Because I never said bus connects was cheaper per km
    I always agreed it was.


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    #2358
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Because I never said bus connects was cheaper per km
    I always agreed it was.

    Not what I’m saying.
    Cost per km is a single metic, so is journeys. You can’t argue that we shouldn’t be assessing various projects on cost (a single metric) and then turn around and assess then on journeys (a single metric). That’s complete hypocrisy.


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    #2359
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Because you knew the keywords to search for,
    I've tried in the past to find your figures and was unable to.

    Which one of the links I provided today would you not have been able to find?

    I have no problem with someone saying; where did you get the figure, I couldn’t seem to find it. I do have issue with someone suggesting that I plucked the most basic figure (single carriageway capacity) out of thin air when they were too lazy to search for it.


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    #2360
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Not what I’m saying.
    Cost per km is a single metic, so is journeys. You can’t argue that we shouldn’t be assessing various projects on cost (a single metric) and then turn around and assess then on journeys (a single metric). That’s complete hypocrisy.

    No it's not. That a nonsense comment. Projects have numberous metrics some more important than other. I happen to think that the cost per km is irrelevant for BusConnects. We should be spending limiting money to attempt benefit the most people.

    Of course cost per km can be a useful mertic is some cases. When for example one road costs 100 million per km and serves 1 million people and a other is 1 million per km and serves roughly the same amount of people. Now of course even in this case an other metic might come into play such as national interest.


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    #2361
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,632 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Good lord.


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    #2362
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Which one of the links I provided today would you not have been able to find?

    I have no problem with someone saying; where did you get the figure, I couldn’t seem to find it. I do have issue with someone suggesting that I plucked the most basic figure (single carriageway capacity) out of thin air when they were too lazy to search for it.

    No one asked you for single carriageway capacity. Your statement about 2+1's being unsafe again I Googled that and can't find your source. I also searched for traffic in Ireland and N5 usage and didn't find that NTA site you eventually provided


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    #2363
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No it's not. That a nonsense comment. Projects have numberous metrics some more important than other. I happen to think that the cost per km is irrelevant for BusConnects. We should be spending limiting money to attempt benefit the most people.

    Of course cost per km can be a useful mertic is some cases. When for example one road costs 100 million per km and serves 1 million people and a other is 1 million per km and serves roughly the same amount of people. Now of course even in this case an other metic might come into play such as national interest.

    You’re actually agreeing with what I’m saying. Projects have numerous metrics. Cost per km being one and journeys being another.

    You comparing Busconnects and the 3 roads on journey numbers. I compared them on cost per km. You disagreed with me comparing them on cost per km as a single metric but them tried to compare them on your own single metric of number of journeys.

    Do you not see the contradiction in that?
    If you don’t think we should be assessing them on simply cost per km, then don’t assess the, on simply journey numbers.

    All 4 projects have their merits (the 3 roads ones arguably more merit given they’ve been through all the hoops). To get back to your original post, until Busconnects has a completed cost benefit analysis people have every right to question the cost regardless of how many other projects which have completed that CBA process have been approved funding.


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    #2364
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No one asked you for single carriageway capacity. Your statement about 2+1's being unsafe again I Googled that and can't find your source. I also searched for traffic in Ireland and N5 usage and didn't find that NTA site you eventually provided

    You questioned where I got an AADT of 10,000 from. I pointed out that because they are proposed as dual carriageway roads, they obviously exceed the capacity of a single carriageway road which is around the 10,000 mark.


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    #2365
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You’re actually agreeing with what I’m saying. Projects have numerous metrics. Cost per km being one and journeys being another.

    You comparing Busconnects and the 3 roads on journey numbers. I compared them on cost per km. You disagreed with me comparing them on cost per km as a single metric but them tried to compare them on your own single metric of number of journeys.

    Do you not see the contradiction in that?
    If you don’t think we should be assessing them on simply cost per km, then don’t assess the, on simply journey numbers.

    All 4 projects have their merits (the 3 roads ones arguably more merit given they’ve been through all the hoops). To get back to your original post, until Busconnects has a completed cost benefit analysis people have every right to question the cost regardless of how many other projects which have completed that CBA process have been approved funding.

    Great welcome to 20 posts ago where we could have had this discussion after you simply posted that link showing the road usage but instead you've posted a other half dozen 'facts' that you expect me to magically find on Google.


    I'm out.


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    #2366
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Great welcome to 20 posts ago where we could have had this discussion after you simply posted that link showing the road usage but instead you've posted a other half dozen 'facts' that you expect me to magically find on Google.


    I'm out.

    Your argument about journey numbers was after this. Christ on a bike.


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    #2367
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Your argument about journey numbers was after this. Christ on a bike.

    I hope you’re both out.
    I’m asking you to take a break - this thread has gone a trifle aggressive.


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    #2368
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Literally all of the links I provided today were found in the top 5 google searches.

    I am the only one being asked to provide links. Other users have even asked me to provide more than one link because they didn’t like what the first one said.

    If you do not believe the figures are right check it out for yourself instead of making a big song and dance about it

    Mod: If you make an assertion, you must back it up with a source. It is not right to expect other posters to do your work for you. Quoting figures without context is not on.


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    #2369
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Dark times indeed when we have to rely on Dublin City Council and FF for some sense on public transport

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/council-rejects-taoiseach-s-proposal-for-electric-cars-in-bus-lanes-1.4070771
    However, a spokesman for the local authority’s environment and transport department said it did not believe privately owned EVs should be allowed to use bus lanes, adding that it would be “opposed to any changes in regulations to allow this to happen”.

    “The bus lanes are currently at capacity and the current legal presence of small public service vehicles is causing delays and disruptions to bus services, adding any more vehicles in the bus lanes would not facilitate public transport and bus operations,” the spokesman added.

    Fianna Fáil has also branded the Taoiseach’s comments - made in a radio interview with TodayFM - as unhelpful.

    John Lahart, Fianna Fáil’s Dublin spokesman, said the Taoiseach’s proposal to examine this is “surprising” because the Government has shown “commitment to BusConnects; to reducing congestion in Dublin and to proposing greater use of public transport”.

    “The idea of filling up our bus lanes into the city with cars just defies logic. There is no mention of cycling or e-cycling in the Government’s climate action plan and they have put all their eggs in the basket of e-cars,” he said. “I have no idea why the Taoiseach would propose the use of bus lanes by e-cars.”


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    #2370
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    sharper wrote: »
    Dark times indeed when we have to rely on Dublin City Council and FF for some sense on public transport

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/council-rejects-taoiseach-s-proposal-for-electric-cars-in-bus-lanes-1.4070771
    Fianna Fáil are the ones who have been calling for the government to introduce this. Their environment spokesperson Timmy Dooley has been going around calling for EVs in bus lanes since 2016. Now they oppose it because of the 90% negative reaction FG got.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-electric-cars-use-bus-lanes-says-td-tmft6dbdq

    https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1190749505882341384?s=20

    https://www.fiannafail.ie/government-must-be-more-ambitious-in-efforts-to-promote-electric-cars-dooley/
    https://www.fiannafail.ie/taoiseachs-comments-on-making-bus-lanes-accessible-to-electric-cars-unhelpful-lahart/


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    #2371
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Fianna Fáil are the ones who have been calling for the government to introduce this. Their environment spokesperson Timmy Dooley has been going around calling for EVs in bus lanes since 2016. Now they oppose it because of the 90% negative reaction FG got.

    They've also been opposing BusConnects seemingly just on the basis it's easy to attack and it's a great way to win support. Who really cares about transport, elections need winning.

    The government response to electric cars in bus lanes though should have been "Absolutely not, what a ridiculous idea" and given the silly season antics we see with transport planning I can easily see them having actually done it so they could brag about green credentials and moving us all into the future and such. Again, who cares about transport elections need winning and governments love positive international press.

    And of course FF also selection Deirdre Conroy who loves trees when a small amount of them might be cut down to add a bus lane but doesn't love them so much when car access is limited instead.


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