Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

There's nothing in the project that really jumps out as unreasonable from a planning perspective. So long as they've done the work in terms of environment impact, etc, then it should go through, probably with conditions though.

More likely, however, is a string of court cases fighting the CPOs. For those affected, if they want to save their garden, then they might see a court case as essentially "free". Win and save the garden, therefore worth the expense, or lose the case and their garden, but get paid off anyway.

I actually suspect that the potential closure of extended sections of certain arteries (one way or both) to general traffic will be a major obstacle.

It’s far easier to do this in the city centre, but when it’s in the suburbs the effects are far greater. Some of the proposed closures are fairly major routes, which will have serious knock-on effects on the routes that the traffic is diverted onto and potentially create new “rat runs”. That I think will lead to a significant amount of objections.

Sam Russell

One aspect of this that is not mentioned - parking.

If DCC was able to reduce on-street parking in the city centre, either by increasing the charges couples with enforcement, that could tip the balance towards PT use.

If BIK were extended to include all-day parking for workers, this might also tip the balance.

Reducing car use increases the speed of buses, which in turn improves the attraction of PT. Speed,frequency, and reliability are the forces that drive the use of PT. [Cost also has an effect].

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s a bit rich then to be telling people what’s best for them to be honest, when you don’t personally use the service in question.

Large numbers of people use the bus service along that section and blindly telling them it’s better to walk a further 8 minutes is somewhat patronising being honest about it.

It does seem to me that most posters here really don’t understand the issues facing the area and seem happy to post broad generalisations about it which don’t deal with the specific issues it faces.

You don't have to live there or use the service to know that
a)the current set up doesn't work at peak times and
b)8 minutes walk for a good service is more than acceptable
people walk for well over 2km or even 3km to access luas, DART and Swords Express at present because they are more reliable services.

blanch152

LXFlyer wrote: »

I actually suspect that the potential closure of extended sections of certain arteries (one way or both) to general traffic will be a major obstacle.

It’s far easier to do this in the city centre, but when it’s in the suburbs the effects are far greater. Some of the proposed closures are fairly major routes, which will have serious knock-on effects on the routes that the traffic is diverted onto and potentially create new “rat runs”. That I think will lead to a significant amount of objections.

A good point. The closure of Old Cabra Road and Prussia Street will have significant knock-on effects for Blackhorse Avenue, Aughrim Street and Oxmantown Road.

Heartbreak Hank

Sam Russell wrote: »

One aspect of this that is not mentioned - parking.

If DCC was able to reduce on-street parking in the city centre, either by increasing the charges couples with enforcement, that could tip the balance towards PT use.

If BIK were extended to include all-day parking for workers, this might also tip the balance.

Reducing car use increases the speed of buses, which in turn improves the attraction of PT. Speed,frequency, and reliability are the forces that drive the use of PT. [Cost also has an effect].

They might introduce a congestion charge at the same time. Based on the projected journey times, the argument of no public transport alternative to driving wouldn't hold up.


No mention of park and rides that I saw. Surely they would be of benefit.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

You don't have to live there or use the service to know that
a)the current set up doesn't work at peak times and
b)8 minutes walk for a good service is more than acceptable
people walk for well over 2km or even 3km to access luas, DART and Swords Express at present because they are more reliable services.

With respect it does tend to help to have an understanding of traffic flows, busy stops, pinch points etc. before telling people that road closures (for example) are a great idea without any knowledge of what the knock-on effects will be.

That’s one of the reasons I take trips across the bus network most weeks during the evening peak to see for myself what the problems are rather than pontificating and telling people what’s best for them without any actual knowledge of the on the ground problems

Removing bus services from what are key corridors is a major change. We will have to see what Jarrett Walker proposes and the reaction to that.

A look at terenure off peak or via satellite imagery isn't going to show how disastrous it is for journey times on the 15.

Even before the crash I can remember it being so bad that at peak times you were stuck on the Templeogue Road for over 35 minutes alone, inching to the first set of two traffic lights by two cars every second green light.

There were plans last decade to turn the network of roads leading into terenure one way and nothing ever came of it. I doubt anything will come from it now.

pc7

I just see this being blocked the whole way. A friend who will be getting a bus lane outside their house, they aren't losing any of their garden, just the grass verge that leads onto the road is complaining. I said but you have parking still in your front garden, yes for 2 cars, but when we have visitors they park on the verge! You can't win.

citizen6

I could see a compromise whereby there's a continuous bus lane inbound via KCR and Harold's Cross, and outbound via Rathmines and Terenure. Or vice versa. The routes would come together at Templeogue Bridge.

Not sure how this would work in practice but it seems more realistic politically. Anyone travelling via Templeogue Bridge get benefits in both directions, while those living closer to town at least benefit in one direction.

Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines all have significant amounts of travellers disembarking on inbound 15s (whether for work, school, college or shopping). I've seen similar in the opposite direction too.

A 1200-2000metre walk between the inbound/outbound route would be useless.

citizen6

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines all have significant amounts of travellers disembarking on inbound 15s (whether for work, school, college or shopping). I've seen similar in the opposite direction too.

A 1200-2000metre walk between the inbound/outbound route would be useless.

And there would still be busses serving those places in both directions. But passengers coming from further out, and heading for town, could choose a new service that used the bus lane in both directions.

I'm not saying it's a great option. But it's better than nothing, if the current proposals are not achievable.

citizen6

citizen6 wrote: »

And there would still be busses serving those places in both directions. But passengers coming from further out, and heading for town, could choose a new service that used the bus lane in both directions.

I'm not saying it's a great option. But it's better than nothing, if the current proposals are not achievable.

So you want to increase the amount of routes by 50%?

Keep existing routes and add busconnects routes on top?

That's a terrible idea.

citizen6

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you want to increase the amount of routes by 50%?

Keep existing routes and add busconnects routes on top?

That's a terrible idea.

You would reduce service on some existing routes as appropriate, and add new ones that took advantage of whatever bus lanes actually get built. There used to be a 15X that skipped many of the stops after Templeogue. There would be a demand for something similar that took the quickest route to or from town.

Anyone whose destination is Rathgar as you say, can continue to use the 15. Their journey would be quicker in one direction, and possibly worse (reduced frequency) in the other. But I think you overestimate the number of people going from Rathfarnham to Rathgar etc.

LXFlyer

Connections such as the above may well be what Jarrett Walker proposes - again I suspect that the implications of that haven’t sunk in with the general public yet.

citizen6

citizen6 wrote: »

You would reduce service on some existing routes as appropriate, and add new ones that took advantage of whatever bus lanes actually get built. There used to be a 15X that skipped many of the stops after Templeogue. There would be a demand for something similar that took the quickest route to or from town.

Anyone whose destination is Rathgar as you say, can continue to use the 15. Their journey would be quicker in one direction, and possibly worse (reduced frequency) in the other. But I think you overestimate the number of people going from Rathfarnham to Rathgar etc.

Again, you aren't really thinking your idea through. Arguing that "it's better than nothing" is silly. Walking is better than nothing. Better than nothing is in no way relevant to a strategic public transport initiative.

I also didn't estimate any number of people who get off or on on any route. I'm not aware of many (any?) one-direction circular public transport lines on any of the 20+ major cities I've travelled to in the UK and EU. There's a reason for that, they're terrible on pretty much every level of providing journies.

Lastly, making a public transport system overly complex (let's double the amount of routes, adding new routes that go mostly the same way as existing ones but only in one direction, sometimes and somewhere) isn't 'better than nothing' either.

In trying to think how DB could possibly be made worse despite trying to improve things, I think you've hit the nail on the head fairly well.

citizen6

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, you aren't really thinking your idea through. Arguing that "it's better than nothing" is silly. Walking is better than nothing. Better than nothing is in no way relevant to a strategic public transport initiative.

I also didn't estimate any number of people who get off or on on any route. I'm not aware of many (any?) one-direction circular public transport lines on any of the 20+ major cities I've travelled to in the UK and EU. There's a reason for that, they're terrible on pretty much every level of providing journies.

Lastly, making a public transport system overly complex (let's double the amount of routes, adding new routes that go mostly the same way as existing ones but only in one direction, sometimes and somewhere) isn't 'better than nothing' either.

In trying to think how DB could possibly be made worse despite trying to improve things, I think you've hit the nail on the head fairly well.

By better than nothing, I mean better than the status quo. Continuous bus lanes in one direction is better than none. Or is that silly?

I never proposed doubling the number of routes. I suggested possibly adding some peak time routes like the old 15X.

Do you think the Busconnects proposal will happen? If not, what is your realistic alternative?

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

So you want to increase the amount of routes by 50%?

Keep existing routes and add busconnects routes on top?

That's a terrible idea.

That is clearly not what bus connects is proposing.

BusConnects proposes making 16 "corridors" high quality corridors.

Note the word corridor, not routes. Many different bus routes will use fully or partly a particular corridor. And not just DB/GA, but also Aircoach and many other bus and coach companies.

That isn't to say that there weren't also be bus routes off these corridors or only partly using them. There of course will be. But they will be lower quality, slower routes.

Bray Head

bk wrote: »

BusConnects proposes making 16 "corridors" high quality corridors.

It would be great if this could be achieved with a big bang overhaul of our silly system of route numbers. 

Currently there is lots of overlap between routes in the city centre and inner suburbs with the route numbers giving you no clue about it.


We should number each corridor from 11 to 26. Buses that travel corridor 11 are numbered 111, 112, 113, etc depending on how they branch off in the suburbs.


This would make it clear to people making short trips in the city centre and inner suburbs that they just have to hop on any bus starting with 11.

bk

Bray Head I believe under BusConnects, they will also be reorganising routes, so maybe they will do that, a nice idea.

Though you would be limited to just 9 variants on corridors 10 to 16. Unless they moved to a 4 digit code. Maybe:

Corridor 1:
1001
1002
...
1010
Corridor 2:
2001
2002
...
2010
Corridor 12:
1201

Bray Head

I think four digits could be visual clutter and you don't need that much space to convey the information.

Another solution would be good quality route maps where each corridor has its own colour. Thick lines for where several routes run on the same corridor and then thin lines where they branch off. 

Luxembourg is a nice example of this but it might not work on a bigger scale in Dublin.

Heartbreak Hank

It said in the release that the orbital CBCs will be done after the radial ones. I assume the Jarrett Walker work will identify and implement the orbitals but they will still fight it out with traffic as is, in the medium term.


From what I have read, the orbitals are a key part in the development of a network and the provision of frequency rather than coverage based system. Does providing new orbital routes, which will perform poorly for a number of years and impact the network as whole, have potential to scupper the effectiveness of the system and turn public perception against the scheme?

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines all have significant amounts of travellers disembarking on inbound 15s (whether for work, school, college or shopping). I've seen similar in the opposite direction too.

A 1200-2000metre walk between the inbound/outbound route would be useless.

It might work elsewhere if the distances are not so huge. What about Aughrim St and Prussia St?

cgcsb

I'd like to see the bus numbering system work alpha numerically so you can easily work out which route is going where without knowing it. So if the are 10 main corridors say the buses are all A-J working clockwise.

So the current 39/a,37,70 would be E1, E2 and E3, you know all the E's are going to the blanch area and all pass through Stoneybatter, so no need to know the exact route route number.

Same with the 25a/b, 40, 66,67,26 etc. befoming the F1, F2, F3 etc. Then have a map with the trunk routes being just a letter 'F' and then thinner lines denoting where the individual routes branch off from the main corridor. So only the main corridors need to be different colours.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd like to see the bus numbering system work alpha numerically so you can easily work out which route is going where without knowing it. So if the are 10 main corridors say the buses are all A-J working clockwise.

This could also work. For people with vision impairments it's better to keep to numerals only as there is less scope for mixing things up.

loyatemu

expect "Save the 46A" type campaigns if they do renumber (though they did manage to kill the 10 without too much fuss).

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

expect "Save the 46A" type campaigns if they do renumber (though they did manage to kill the 10 without too much fuss).

They did but the experience they had from the renumbering of the 10 as I understand it (seemingly significant confusion and a dip in usage interestingly for an extended period) led to further renumbering under Network Direct being kept to a minimum (except where absolutely necessary due to routes being merged).

People do tend to resist change no matter how sensible or well intentioned it is!

BonnieSituation

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd like to see the bus numbering system work alpha numerically so you can easily work out which route is going where without knowing it. So if the are 10 main corridors say the buses are all A-J working clockwise.

So the current 39/a,37,70 would be E1, E2 and E3, you know all the E's are going to the blanch area and all pass through Stoneybatter, so no need to know the exact route route number.

Same with the 25a/b, 40, 66,67,26 etc. befoming the F1, F2, F3 etc. Then have a map with the trunk routes being just a letter 'F' and then thinner lines denoting where the individual routes branch off from the main corridor. So only the main corridors need to be different colours.

So that would be anticlockwise then? Cos the sea!

BonnieSituation

loyatemu wrote: »

expect "Save the 46A" type campaigns if they do renumber (though they did manage to kill the 10 without too much fuss).

Remember that time they had the temerity to stop it going through Monkstown Farm?

Fuppin' RBB and his PBP cronies.

Stephen15

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Remember that time they had the temerity to stop it going through Monkstown Farm?

Fuppin' RBB and his PBP cronies.

And to some degree they won when they tried to reroute the 7 away from Sallynoggin ended up coming to a compromise by running every second 7 through Sallynoggin now known as the 7a. They never received the same opposition when they took it out of the somewhat more middle class area of Stillorgan Village and made the sensible decision to run it along the N11.

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

And to some degree they won when they tried to reroute the 7 away from Sallynoggin ended up coming to a compromise by running every second 7 through Sallynoggin now known as the 7a. They never received the same opposition when they took it out of the somewhat more middle class area of Stillorgan Village and made the sensible decision to run it along the N11.

Neither the 7 or the 7A go on the N11, or anywhere near Stillorgan Village. They go through Glenageary, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Ballsbridge, Pearse Station.