Dublin - BusConnects

Seth Brundle

MJohnston wrote: »

Garda have clearly decided years ago that they want nothing to do with automated enforcement. When I moved here in 2006, there were fixed speed cameras on the M1, at various points on the M50, and at least one on the N4. There used to be a red light camera at Inchicore/Kilmainham inbound on the N4 too. Plenty of other examples. Now, none of those things are still in operation. That's an active choice by GDS to revert to manual enforcement (which of course, they do not do).

It's a ridiculous, weird choice by them, and we need a Minister for Transport that will put that enforcement somewhere it'll actually get done.

IIRC we had 21 Gatso fixed camera units but only three had film at any one time - we just never know which three.
From anecdotes, it didn't take long to use up all the film which made them laborious to maintain.

They also dould not differentiate between vehicle type so for example it couldn't detect a speeding truck on a motorway that was under the regular 120km/h limit.

Sam Russell

I would think a bus mounted camera activated by the drive that took a picture with a readable number plate, time and GPS location, transmitted to AGS for review. Gardai the check vehicle for tax, ins, and NCT. Gardai then issue appropriate paperwork. No need for changes o the law.

If only 100 buses were fitted out, out of a fleet of over 1,000, it would be no time at all before bus lanes would be for buses.

Last Stop

loyatemu wrote: »

if GoSafe can enforce speeding offences I don't see why NTA can't issue points or fines for Bus Lane violations. It's a cop out from Shane Ross, he's a useless windbag and the worst transport minister I can remember. The only comfort is he's likely to be out of the department next year.

Gosafe don’t enforce speeding offences.

“When a motorist is detected speeding, the offence details and images will be validated and the vehicle registration numbers recorded by GoSafe. The data will then be sent electronically by GoSafe to the Garda IT Section, where it will be uploaded into the Fixed Charge Processing System (FCPS).
The motorist will then receive a fixed charge notice in the normal way through the post. This will be administered by the Fixed Charge Processing Office (FCPO), Thurles in the same way as detections made by Garda personnel.”

https://www.garda.ie/en/Roads-Policing/Safety-Cameras/

This is far more complex that simply outsourcing the work.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think a bus mounted camera activated by the drive that took a picture with a readable number plate, time and GPS location, transmitted to AGS for review. Gardai the check vehicle for tax, ins, and NCT. Gardai then issue appropriate paperwork. No need for changes o the law.

If only 100 buses were fitted out, out of a fleet of over 1,000, it would be no time at all before bus lanes would be for buses.

For about the umpteenth time I find myself saying to you that I think bus drivers have far more important things to be doing such as driving the bus safely and looking after the safety of their passengers than to be activating cameras.

That just isn’t going to happen. A bus driver’s job is to drive the bus (and importantly safely) and is not to act as a photographer.

The process has to be automatic.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think a bus mounted camera activated by the drive that took a picture with a readable number plate, time and GPS location, transmitted to AGS for review. Gardai the check vehicle for tax, ins, and NCT. Gardai then issue appropriate paperwork. No need for changes o the law.

If only 100 buses were fitted out, out of a fleet of over 1,000, it would be no time at all before bus lanes would be for buses.

The automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) software you are describing is incredibly expensive.
Besides that you would need to change the law. You can’t have random vehicles detecting traffic offences. The guards would still have to process it which would be a significant drain on resources.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

For about the umpteenth time I find myself saying to you that I think bus drivers have far more important things to be doing such as driving the bus safely and looking after the safety of their passengers than to be activating cameras.

That just isn’t going to happen. A bus driver’s job is to drive the bus (and importantly safely) and is not to act as a photographer.

The process has to be automatic.

Well, maybe, but if a driver is stopped behind a motorist illegally in the bus lane, I would think most bus drivers would delight in pushing the button that takes the photo.

Last Stop wrote: »

The automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) software you are describing is incredibly expensive.
Besides that you would need to change the law. You can’t have random vehicles detecting traffic offences. The guards would still have to process it which would be a significant drain on resources.

I would think that if only 10% of buses were fitted out, it would not be too expensive, but would be quite effective.

IR have fitted out level crossings with ANPR cameras to combat cars trying to beat the gates. They claim to be able to prosecute.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, maybe, but if a driver is stopped behind a motorist illegally in the bus lane, I would think most bus drivers would delight in pushing the button that takes the photo.

And how many bus drivers would delight in pushing the button even if the car driver was in the right (e.g a left turn lane or part of the route without a bus lane)?

I would think that if only 10% of buses were fitted out, it would not be too expensive, but would be quite effective.

IR have fitted out level crossings with ANPR cameras to combat cars trying to beat the gates. They claim to be able to prosecute.

Even 10% would cost millions! Gosafe have 50 vans on the go and are costing €15m a year!!

And then at least half of the prosecutions would be struck out because the only proof that they committed an offence is a picture which does may not show any bus lane markings.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

And how many bus drivers would delight in pushing the button even if the car driver was in the right (e.g a left turn lane or part of the route without a bus lane)?



Even 10% would cost millions! Gosafe have 50 vans on the go and are costing €15m a year!!

And then at least half of the prosecutions would be struck out because the only proof that they committed an offence is a picture which does may not show any bus lane markings.

Luckily there is gold in them there bus lanes

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49263375

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Luckily there is gold in them there bus lanes

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49263375

1) These are fixed cameras
2) The fines are higher than here
3) The cost of operating 10% buses based on gosafe rates would be €30m a year requiring an average of 1030 offences per day. That’s even before you factor in Garda processing hours.
4) Becuase they are fixed cameras, they detect every car in the bus lane. Bus ANPR would only detect the last car in the queue
5) that figure is over 4 years, so 1m a year which even assuming the lower fine rate is a 75 cars a day are still using bus lanes illegally at the 6 locations.

sharper

The figures from the Irish government put ANPR at €6k per vehicle

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-04-07-2017-288

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Charles Flanagan): As the Deputy will be appreciate, the detailed allocation of Garda resources, including the procurement of ICT products and services, is a matter for the Garda Commissioner, and I as Minister, have no role in the matter.

I have, however, been informed by the Garda authorities that Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology was introduced into An Garda Síochána in 2008 and is fitted in official Garda vehicles which are allocated around the country and used on a daily basis to assist in the prevention and detection of crime, particularly on our roads network. I understand that there are currently some 99 Garda vehicles fitted with ANPR, 89 of which are in the Garda Traffic Corps and that this number can vary on a daily basis having regard to operational requirements.

It costs approximately €6000 to purchase and fit an ANPR system to a vehicle and I am informed that the capacity and capabilities of the technology are kept under regular review by senior Garda Management.
The Modernisation and Renewal Programme 2016 – 2021 for An Garda Síochána has identified a number of areas for expansion of ANPR including:

- increasing the number of ANPR units deployed;

- the addition of more ‘watch-lists’ in order to remove a greater number of dangerous drivers and defective vehicles from the roads;

- examining the introduction of fixed ANPR sites at strategic locations across the roads network, in addition to using portable ANPR units while patrolling;
- working with the National Roads Authority, Port Authorities, Local Authorities and private car park operators in order to access data from their ANPR systems, as well as CCTV systems operating on the motorway network.

Dublin Bus has a fleet of about 1000 so in and around €6m to outfit the entire fleet. If I recall the Bus Connects budget was in the region of €750m.

Spending a few extra million in order to ensure hundreds of millions spent is effective is a total no-brainer.

L1011

That figure would have included the entire system cost, divided by 99 cars - a lot more cars have it now and it won't be 6k a car anymore. The kit is a few hundred euro of electronics + a hefty margin for some firm along the way but not that high a margin!

Last Stop

sharper wrote: »

The figures from the Irish government put ANPR at €6k per vehicle

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-04-07-2017-288



Dublin Bus has a fleet of about 1000 so in and around €6m to outfit the entire fleet. If I recall the Bus Connects budget was in the region of €750m.

Spending a few extra million in order to ensure hundreds of millions spent is effective is a total no-brainer.

Thats just the fit out cost on cars, that doesn’t include the cost to maintain it or for the gardai to process the data

sharper

Last Stop wrote: »

Thats just the fit out cost on cars, that doesn’t include the cost to maintain it or for the gardai to process the data

I'm not getting into one of these page spanning back-and-forths. We're talking about buses here which also have maintenance costs and I'm entirely sure a camera takes less wear and tear than say the wheelchair ramp.

ANPR is widely deployed in many countries and is typically low cost option for enforcement. If you believe otherwise that's fine with me.

Sam Russell

Last Stop wrote: »

And how many bus drivers would delight in pushing the button even if the car driver was in the right (e.g a left turn lane or part of the route without a bus lane)?
.

The photo takes a picture of the vehicle, showing the number plate, the time, and the GPS location. If there is a left lane, then there is no guilt. However, a vast number of drivers drive down bus lanes (pretending) to turn left further down. The Gardai would satisfy them selves that a FCPN was appropriate. The bus driver just initiates the process.

Last Stop

Sam Russell wrote: »

The photo takes a picture of the vehicle, showing the number plate, the time, and the GPS location. If there is a left lane, then there is no guilt. However, a vast number of drivers drive down bus lanes (pretending) to turn left further down. The Gardai would satisfy them selves that a FCPN was appropriate. The bus driver just initiates the process.

GPS location on a moving vehicle meaning if the vehicle loses connection and regains it a few metres down the roads, the whole system is brought into disrepute.

How can you prove where the left lane markings start? It isn’t a standard distance from the junction.

Again, relying on Gardai to process the data. It’s not a black and white like speed where you’re either over the limit or not. Where do you draw the line? A car could block the bus lane by being half in it. Should they be prosecuted? What if just your wheel was over the line?
What if there was a broken down car in front? The Gardai won’t be able to see that from the picture.

Add in that fact that you’re only processing a fraction of offenders ( as you’re catching the last in the queue)

JohnC.

Last Stop wrote: »

Even 10% would cost millions! Gosafe have 50 vans on the go and are costing €15m a year!!

There are costs that GoSafe have which the bus companies wouldn't have. Such as the actual vehicles (already doing a job carrying people) and the person in the vehicle (already doing a job driving).

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

GPS location on a moving vehicle meaning if the vehicle loses connection and regains it a few metres down the roads, the whole system is brought into disrepute.

How can you prove where the left lane markings start? It isn’t a standard distance from the junction.

Again, relying on Gardai to process the data. It’s not a black and white like speed where you’re either over the limit or not. Where do you draw the line? A car could block the bus lane by being half in it. Should they be prosecuted? What if just your wheel was over the line?
What if there was a broken down car in front? The Gardai won’t be able to see that from the picture.

Add in that fact that you’re only processing a fraction of offenders ( as you’re catching the last in the queue)

And yet other countries have over come all these issues without a problem.

New York beening one of the lastest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/traffic/1500-warnings-issued-to-nyc-bus-lane-blockers-in-1-week/5626349/

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And yet other countries have over come all these issues without a problem.

New York beening one of the lastest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/traffic/1500-warnings-issued-to-nyc-bus-lane-blockers-in-1-week/5626349/

And yet our minister decided it wasn’t worth the risk.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

And yet our minister decided it wasn’t worth the risk.

What risk? Ross said nothing about risk. Just that he can't be bothered. Ross is the most incompedent minister for transport this country has ever seen. And that's saying something

cgcsb

I'd be happy with a dozen anpr sites that actually issue fines. Bachelors walk is a good place to start, the bus lane there is chockers with cars all the way from before Capel st and straight through the 24hr bus gate. Not only are they not turning left but actually there is nowhere to turn left. Intact I'd remove cars from bachelors walk altogether but the car lobby is too powerful.

You could also do the same on Patrick st, Rathmines
Rock road etc.

To save costs, use the same infrastructure to implement a diesel car ban.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What risk? Ross said nothing about risk. Just that he can't be bothered. Ross is the most incompedent minister for transport this country has ever seen. And that's saying something

Yeah I’m sure it’s because he can’t be bothered. You’d swear he was the only person in the dept of transport. He has gotten advice on this, in fact I doubt he even wrote the statement he read out.

You posted nonsensical claims that were easily and thoroughly disproved but instead of accepting that you got it wrong, you've been busy changing the goalposts and segueing to avoid having to admit what absolutely everyone else can see. Mother of god do you really have nothing better to do?

The automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) software you are describing is incredibly expensive.

No it isn't. Accept that and move on.

Last Stop

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You posted nonsensical claims that were easily and thoroughly disproved but instead of accepting that you got it wrong, you've been busy changing the goalposts and segueing to avoid having to admit what absolutely everyone else can see. Mother of god do you really have nothing better to do?



No it isn't. Accept that and move on.

So please explain to me what’s so easily understood that the minister of transport and his advisors can’t see it?

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

Yeah I’m sure it’s because he can’t be bothered. You’d swear he was the only person in the dept of transport. He has gotten advice on this, in fact I doubt he even wrote the statement he read out.

Mr Ross said he received the request from the NTA but he had “no current plans” to give the authority an enforcement role. “We will do anything which we think is effective in policing the corridors and the roads to protect lives. At the moment those who have to enforce it are the gardaí and we think they are the appropriate body to do so

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/no-plans-for-bus-lane-enforcement-powers-for-nta-ross-1.4075998?mode=amp

Nothing about cost, nothing about risk, nothing about legal issues.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/no-plans-for-bus-lane-enforcement-powers-for-nta-ross-1.4075998?mode=amp

Nothing about cost, nothing about risk, nothing about legal issues.

It clearly states that the guards enforce it meaning there would be a legal issue to allow the NTA do it

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

It clearly states that the guards enforce it meaning there would be a legal issue to allow the NTA do it

Which is why the NTA ask the minister to change the law. And we are back to square one.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Which is why the NTA ask the minister to change the law. And we are back to square one.

And that is when the minister was advised (the we in the statement) that a law change wouldn’t be feasible bringing us to the statement he issued yesterday.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

And that is when the minister was advised (the we in the statement) that a law change wouldn’t be feasible bringing us to the statement he issued yesterday.

He never said it's not feasible. He said he has no intention of doing it. You're guessing at his motive and putting words in his mouth. I've quoted him directly a few posts ago. In fact the minister has been quoted twice in this thread. You are guessing

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

He never said it's not feasible. He said he has no intention of doing it. You're guessing at his motive and putting words in his mouth. I've quoted him directly a few posts ago. In fact the minister has been quoted twice in this thread. You are guessing

I’m reading between the lines. It’s quite obvious that there is reason behind it and it’s not just his complete incompetence as a minister which some on here are blaming. If it was feasible, the advisors in his department would have pushed it through.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

I’m reading between the lines. It’s quite obvious that there is reason behind it and it’s not just his complete incompetence as a minister which some on here are blaming. If it was feasible, the advisors in his department would have pushed it through.

Perhaps you should read just the actual words more often and not get yourself twisted up in hidden nuance between the lines that doesn't exist.

A department follows the lead of their minister and let's not forget just last week FG were talking about eCars in the bus lanes. There is no obvious reason behind it and there has been no indication it's not feasible. All we have is Ross saying that he won't do it.