Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Neither the 7 or the 7A go on the N11, or anywhere near Stillorgan Village. They go through Glenageary, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Ballsbridge, Pearse Station.

Sam you’re completely misunderstanding his post.

He’s referring to when they took the 46a out of Stillorgan village.

He’s comparing the comparative lack of opposition to that move when compared with the opposition to removing all route 7 and 7a services from Sallynoggin (which led to the compromise of the 7 bypassing it and the 7a going through it).

The point being that most proposed changes in working class areas tend to result in a lot of ill-informed and sensationalist nonsense being expressed that results in the proposals being diluted.

Monkstown Farm was one that they did manage to push through thankfully.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

Neither the 7 or the 7A go on the N11, or anywhere near Stillorgan Village. They go through Glenageary, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Ballsbridge, Pearse Station.

See LXFlyer's post

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

Sam you’re completely misunderstanding his post.

He’s referring to when they took the 46a out of Stillorgan village.

He’s comparing the comparative lack of opposition to that move when compared with the opposition to removing all route 7 and 7a services from Sallynoggin (which led to the compromise of the 7 bypassing it and the 7a going through it).

The point being that most proposed changes in working class areas tend to result in a lot of ill-informed and sensationalist nonsense being expressed that results in the proposals being diluted.

Monkstown Farm was one that they did manage to push through thankfully.

Clearly missed the point.

KD345

bk wrote: »

Bray Head I believe under BusConnects, they will also be reorganising routes, so maybe they will do that, a nice idea.

Though you would be limited to just 9 variants on corridors 10 to 16. Unless they moved to a 4 digit code. Maybe:

Corridor 1:
1001
1002
...
1010
Corridor 2:
2001
2002
...
2010
Corridor 12:
1201

That is very confusing. Asking people to take, for example, the 1207 bus to Finglas is overly complicated.

Keep in mind, some bus routes will use two corridors and some corridors will split to serve different areas. Some areas will be served by two corridors.

If we are to renumber bus routes, it should be kept simple and we should work from number 1 upwards.

I would be in favor of retaining the current number system we have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 7, 15s, 25s, 41 etc. they are esatablished routes in the areas they save. The problem is not with the number on the front of the bus, but rather the frequency, capacity and priority the bus has on its route.

We will soon see what the route plans are for Bus Connects, but I feel the simplest options will either be starting from 1 upwards, or else retain the suffix system, which has some benefits in dealing with route variations. The current 41,a,b,c,x is a good example of this, the 41 group is associated with Swords. It is similar in Lucan with the 25s, in Howth with the 31s and Blanchardstown with the 38s and 39s.

cgcsb

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So that would be anticlockwise then? Cos the sea!

yes ok, you get the picture.

CatInABox

Relevant to all buses, I think:

https://twitter.com/campaignforleo/status/1011201833635901440

Wasn't sure if this was confirmed on any of the plans announced already, but all new buses will be low or zero emissions from next year.

bk

Very interesting. That is a Wrigthbus StreetAir. I think the one pictured is a full EV model with a 300kWh battery and a range of 150 to 180 miles.

Wrightbus also have an hydrogen fuel cell double decker version of this bus.

For those who don't know Wrightbus have made almost all of Dublin Buses buses over the last few years in their factory up north, so these would be obvious replacements for the current buses.

Though I'm surprised if they jump straight to these. I would have thought hybrids would be a stepping stone, but I'd certainly not complain if they made the jump straight to these.

Of course this is just a photo op, so without seeing a contract, I won't get too excited.

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

Very interesting. That is a Wrigthbus StreetAir. I think the one pictured is a full EV model with a 300kWh battery and a range of 150 to 180 miles.

Wrightbus also have an hydrogen fuel cell double decker version of this bus.

For those who don't know Wrightbus have made almost all of Dublin Buses buses over the last few years in their factory up north, so these would be obvious replacements for the current buses.

Though I'm surprised if they jump straight to these. I would have thought hybrids would be a stepping stone, but I'd certainly not complain if they made the jump straight to these.

Of course this is just a photo op, so without seeing a contract, I won't get too excited.

Fully electric would be great for the air quality and noise levels in Dublin.

bk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Fully electric would be great for the air quality and noise levels in Dublin.

It sure would and it would help with some of the planning objections that have been raised over the last few years with regards to re-routing buses due to College Green Plaza etc.

It might also helps with BusConencts objections. You just know that objections people will make towards it will be due to extra noise and pollution more buses might bring. Being able to point to new buses like these coming could help neuter such objections in planning.

AlmightyCushion

Leo did just say that all new DB and BE buses will be low or no emissions buses.

Edit: Derp. I see someone posted that only a few posts ago.

Stephen15

The SGs or GTs don't pollute as much don't seem to pollute as much as older buses. When I'm out walking or cycling you definitely don't get as much of a raft of diesel fumes coming out of them as much as you used to or on older buses such as AVs or VTs.

A 100% electric fleet should be the long term goal but DB don't yet have the resources to charge large amounts of buses in their depots I'm not sure how practical electric vehicles are for city buses which are in constant use all day.

Perhaps they could have charging stations at terminuses so buses can charge while they are laying over without having to go back to the depot. I should hope GA have their Ballymount depot fitted with charging stations or at least have them all wired up and ready to go.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

A 100% electric fleet should be the long term goal but DB don't yet have the resources to charge large amounts of buses in their depots I'm not sure how practical electric vehicles are for city buses which are in constant use all day.

The focus is on the vehicle charging and battery technology, which are interchangeable within the rear module. The three different options available are:

• Overnight charging utilising Nickel Manganese Cobalt batteries, with a range of 150 miles or 18 hours of service. Suitable for single deck;

http://www.wrightsgroup.com/news/news_item/WRIGHTBUS-WELCOMES-OLEV-RESULTS-ANNOUNCEMENT

Sam Russell

Would it be possible to re-engine the bus fleet, or even upgrade them to EV?

Most of the bus structure is the same - only the drive gear needs changing. London Transport are still running 40 year old Routemasters. [Not many though].

bk

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Leo did just say that all new DB and BE buses will be low or no emissions buses.

I suspect this will end up with 95 Diesel Hybrid buses and 5 EV buses, but perhaps that is just the cynic in me.

Stephen15 wrote: »

The SGs or GTs don't pollute as much don't seem to pollute as much as older buses. When I'm out walking or cycling you definitely don't get as much of a raft of diesel fumes coming out of them as much as you used to or on older buses such as AVs or VTs.

Yes, they have Euro 6 engines, which are actually incredibly low polluting. A Volkwagen Golf actually produces significantly more pollution then one of these buses!

We now have a much bigger problem with pollution from cars then we do for buses. But no harm in going even further with buses.

Stephen15 wrote: »

A 100% electric fleet should be the long term goal but DB don't yet have the resources to charge large amounts of buses in their depots I'm not sure how practical electric vehicles are for city buses which are in constant use all day.

Perhaps they could have charging stations at terminuses so buses can charge while they are laying over without having to go back to the depot. I should hope GA have their Ballymount depot fitted with charging stations or at least have them all wired up and ready to go.

While it is possible to charge EV buses using inductive charging at bus stops, I think that is all too complicated. I think EV buses will only take off when they can charge over night and then do a full days duty on that single charge.

One thing to remember the start/stop nature of buses is highly suited to EV's.

Also worth keeping in mind that only about 40% of the DB fleet is out all day. 60% sit in the depot between the peaks. You could do a top-up charge then.

While EV buses might not be suited to every single route (44 to Enniskerry), with a bit of crativity I think you could get there for 80 or 90% of routes and buses.

BTW EV buses are already very much here. China is now building 9,000 EV buses every 6 weeks! That is the entire London Bus fleet every 6 weeks!

Only issue is they are all single deckers. Making really good single decker buses with plenty of range is actually relatively easy. What is hard is making double decker EV's. It doesn't really seem to have been cracked yet and that is obviously an issue for UK/Ireland.

Though Cork would love to get some of those single decker EV's

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it be possible to re-engine the bus fleet, or even upgrade them to EV?

It is technically possible, there is actually one EV double decker prototype going around that was originally a Diesel bus. But I think it is too expensive and not really worth the effort.

Probably better off just introducing new purpose built EV buses gradually and use them to phase out the oldest, most polluting buses in the fleet.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it be possible to re-engine the bus fleet, or even upgrade them to EV?

Most of the bus structure is the same - only the drive gear needs changing. London Transport are still running 40 year old Routemasters. [Not many though].

It is technically possible, there is actually one EV double decker prototype going around that was originally a Diesel bus. But I think it is too expensive and not really worth the effort.

Probably better off just introducing new purpose built EV buses gradually and use them to phase out the oldest, most polluting buses in the fleet.

I meant to just replace the current smoke causing diesel for a clean non-polluting latest diesel engine.

It would only cost 10% of the cost of a new bus, I would guess.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

I meant to just replace the current smoke causing diesel for a clean non-polluting latest diesel engine.

It would only cost 10% of the cost of a new bus, I would guess.

Ah.. right, the SG class, which are Euro 6, already make up close to half the fleet. I think around 450 of them delivered by year end. Already around 420.

Then you have the very close GT class, Euro 5, pretty good too, there are 160 of those.

So about 600 buses with new, clean engines.

Then there are about 220 Euro 4 mid-life Euro 4 engined buses.

There are around 76 AV class with their Euro 2 engine, but these are a special case, being the only "high capacity" tri-axles buses left in the fleet.

There are about 150 AX class, Euro 2, but there are quickly been replaced by the new SG's, probably all gone in the next year. These would be the worst offenders and the ones needing gone the soonest.

Leaving aside the issues with the AV's, once the AX are gone you have a pretty clean fleet. I'm not sure the Euro 4 would be worth replacing outside normal retirement.

BTW important to remember that the oldest buses only come out at peak times, if at all. Some sit in depots in case of emergency.

Thing is, reaching Euro 6 levels isn't just related to engine. It is the entire exhaust system, but also the overall weight of the bus. The newer GT and specially SG class buses are specially made out of lighter materials all round to hit the Euro 6 levels.

I'd say you'd have to stick a hybrid, Diesel battery engine and battery in there with regenerative braking in order to meet Euro 6 engines and that certainly wouldn't be cheap or easy. Probably cost more then the bus is now worth!

Anyway, at the current rate their are replacing the buses (more then 100 per year), you would hit an all Euro 5/6 fleet in just 4 years anyway.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

BTW EV buses are already very much here. China is now building 9,000 EV buses every 6 weeks! That is the entire London Bus fleet every 6 weeks!

Only issue is they are all single deckers. Making really good single decker buses with plenty of range is actually relatively easy. What is hard is making double decker EV's. It doesn't really seem to have been cracked yet and that is obviously an issue for UK/Ireland.

Though Cork would love to get some of those single decker EV's

Perhaps they could buy bendy bus EVs for the busy and routes and normal single decker EV for less busy routes. Single decker EVs could be more economical than diesel double deckers. Double deckers are quite inefficient a three door single decker could carry more passengers with plenty of standing room could carry as many as a double decker and a bendy bus could carry up to twice as much.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Perhaps they could buy bendy bus EVs for the busy and routes and normal single decker EV for less busy routes. Single decker EVs could be more economical than diesel double deckers. Double deckers are quite inefficient a three door single decker could carry more passengers with plenty of standing room could carry as many as a double decker and a bendy bus could carry up to twice as much.

I agree, a well implemented bendy bus or BRT as was proposed with Swiftway would have been great and allow for full EV.

However it seems with BusConnects, BRT seems to be off the agenda for now.

Though Go Ahead are getting about 40 single deckers for the quieter routes, so those could be EV. Though the ones being built at the moment aren't EV.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Ah.. right, the SG class, which are Euro 6, already make up close to half the fleet. I think around 450 of them delivered by year end. Already around 420.

Then you have the very close GT class, Euro 5, pretty good too, there are 160 of those.

So about 600 buses with new, clean engines.

Then there are about 220 Euro 4 mid-life Euro 4 engined buses.

There are around 76 AV class with their Euro 2 engine, but these are a special case, being the only "high capacity" tri-axles buses left in the fleet.

There are about 150 AX class, Euro 2, but there are quickly been replaced by the new SG's, probably all gone in the next year. These would be the worst offenders and the ones needing gone the soonest.

Leaving aside the issues with the AV's, once the AX are gone you have a pretty clean fleet. I'm not sure the Euro 4 would be worth replacing outside normal retirement.

BTW important to remember that the oldest buses only come out at peak times, if at all. Some sit in depots in case of emergency.

Thing is, reaching Euro 6 levels isn't just related to engine. It is the entire exhaust system, but also the overall weight of the bus. The newer GT and specially SG class buses are specially made out of lighter materials all round to hit the Euro 6 levels.

I'd say you'd have to stick a hybrid, Diesel battery engine and battery in there with regenerative braking in order to meet Euro 6 engines and that certainly wouldn't be cheap or easy. Probably cost more then the bus is now worth!

Anyway, at the current rate their are replacing the buses (more then 100 per year), you would hit an all Euro 5/6 fleet in just 4 years anyway.

Wait how come the AXs are worse than the AVs as the AXs entered service in 2006 and the AVs all entered service before 2006.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Wait how come the AXs are worse than the AVs as the AXs entered service in 2006 and the AVs all entered service before 2006.

Oh god, brain fart, you are right.

It is the VT's I was thinking of as a special case, them being tri-axles! Though they have Euro 4 engines.

The AV's are the oldest bus and you are right they are the ones currently being retired. Less then 50 left outside of training school, tours, etc. Probably all gone in a years time.

Next up would be the AX's after the AV's.

So 2, max 3 years, everything but Euro 4/5/6 will be gone anyway. 5 Years and all the Euro 4's gone too.

So while I messed up my classes, sorry, the overall point stands. Not much point converting buses when most of the worst will be gone in the next 2/3 years anyway.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Oh god, brain fart, you are right.

It is the VT's I was thinking of as a special case, them being tri-axles! Though they have Euro 4 engines.

The AV's are the oldest bus and you are right they are the ones currently being retired. Less then 50 left outside of training school, tours, etc. Probably all gone in a years time.

Interestingly but not surprising the NTA recently stated that it does plan to buy any additional tri axles. I assume that means that the VT won't be replaced by more tri axles and will be replaced by regular class of double deckers either SGs or a newer model which may introduced between now and then.

Also hybrid buses will go on trial at some point this year before an order is made next year.

http://dublinbuses.com

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Interestingly but not surprising the NTA recently stated that it does plan to buy any additional tri axles. I assume that means that the VT won't be replaced by more tri axles and will be replaced by regular class of double deckers either SGs or a newer model which may introduced between now and then.

Also hybrid buses will go on trial at some point this year before an order is made next year.

http://dublinbuses.com

Yes, I read that previously, but I'm not sure if it actually means they will replace the VT's with regular SG's. The above says they wont buy additional tri-axles for Dublin, it doesn't say they won't replace them eventually.

Either way the AV's will go first, followed by all the AX's, so it is likely 2 more like 3 years before needing to replace the VT's actually comes up.

I'd like to see them get those fancy new 2 stairs, 2/3 door tr-axles they are trailing in Singapore. Interesting since they are left hand drive.

Really interesting video on this page on how the flow is directed with arrows, signs and flappy doors through the bus. In the front door, up the front stairs, down the rear stairs and out the rear dedicated door, we could badly do that here:

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/three-door-double-decker-bus-hits-the-roads-in-trial

Or perhaps the thinking is to replace the VT's with BRT. I wouldn't necessarily go with them going all SG.

The NTA seem to be willing to try new things. Double Deckers in Cork (thank god), the return of single deckers on quiet routes in Dublin, etc.

And yes, I would expect most of the new low emission buses to be just hybrid Diesels now common throughout London, with the odd EV test bus thrown in.

Sam Russell

Why do we and the UK go with double deckers when everyone else goes with single deckers?

In Nice, they have these little single deckers with about 6 seats (well more than that) and standing for 60 passengers (that is about the number on the little plaque) and they buzz around the place. Fare is minimal (€1.5 for 90 min) and buses are frequent.

Why can't we do that? Cheap fares, cheap frequent buses, and full of paying customers.

If EVs have to be single deckers, maybe we should get with the program.

bk

Yes, it is a mixture of tradition and operational issues.

The way that we operate buses here just isn't suited to that sort of speedy frequent service. You know single door, tip your hat to the driver, wait all day for the Leap card to work, bus stops every 100m and buses doing magically mystery tours of every estate in Dublin, simply doesn't lean itself to this sort of operation.

To make single deckers work, you really need 3 doors. All doors open at all stops, quickly entry/exit through any door, zero interaction with the driver for ticketing.

If you think about it, China is 1.4billion people, absolutely massive cities and they get by very well with only single decker buses, when operated in the correct manner. *

* Yes Hong Kong is an exception with lots of Double Deckers. But it shows a lot of that is down from tradition. Hong Kong being a former British colony and following the British bus model.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Very interesting. That is a Wrigthbus StreetAir. I think the one pictured is a full EV model with a 300kWh battery and a range of 150 to 180 miles.

Wrightbus also have an hydrogen fuel cell double decker version of this bus.

For those who don't know Wrightbus have made almost all of Dublin Buses buses over the last few years in their factory up north, so these would be obvious replacements for the current buses.

Though I'm surprised if they jump straight to these. I would have thought hybrids would be a stepping stone, but I'd certainly not complain if they made the jump straight to these.

Of course this is just a photo op, so without seeing a contract, I won't get too excited.

Electric only for Dublin Bus would be great, hybrids could do the longer running routes. It'd remove any case against using Parliament street for bus routes.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Electric only for Dublin Bus would be great, hybrids could do the longer running routes. It'd remove any case against using Parliament street for bus routes.

I think if the marketed them as 'soft' or 'rubber wheeled' trams, then they would be hailed as a magical solution - particularly by one elderly economist.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Yes, it is a mixture of tradition and operational issues.

The way that we operate buses here just isn't suited to that sort of speedy frequent service. You know single door, tip your hat to the driver, wait all day for the Leap card to work, bus stops every 100m and buses doing magically mystery tours of every estate in Dublin, simply doesn't lean itself to this sort of operation.

To make single deckers work, you really need 3 doors. All doors open at all stops, quickly entry/exit through any door, zero interaction with the driver for ticketing.

If you think about it, China is 1.4billion people, absolutely massive cities and they get by very well with only single decker buses, when operated in the correct manner. *

* Yes Hong Kong is an exception with lots of Double Deckers. But it shows a lot of that is down from tradition. Hong Kong being a former British colony and following the British bus model.

I think that you’re getting a bit carried away with that. This chestnut keeps coming up here. The degree to which this happens is greatly reduced since Network Direct - yes we all know about the 16 in Beaumont (and I don’t agree with that route), but it’s true to say that every corridor has a bus route that takes a direct routing along it.

Buses still should and do serve estates at the outer ends but mid-route detours are the exception to the rule.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Interestingly but not surprising the NTA recently stated that it does plan to buy any additional tri axles. I assume that means that the VT won't be replaced by more tri axles and will be replaced by regular class of double deckers either SGs or a newer model which may introduced between now and then.

BTW One other point about the VT's that I forgot. Part of the problem with replacing them, is up until this year, you would have to replace them with basically the exact same bus, just younger!

Sure you would add the rear door, but otherwise they would have been the same B9TL chassis with the same Euro 4 engine! No Euro 6 engined tri-axle existed in the left hand drive market.

So it wouldn't really make much sense to replace them.

Now fortunately Volvo just introduced this year, the B8L, their Euro 6 engined tri-axle to replace the old B9TL. However so far they have only built a few prototypes for the Singapore market. So I'd say it is understandable that the NTA might want to hold off a few years on buying such a new, untested bus until it is in big use with another operator.

As an interesting aside. Go Ahead in Singapore are currently trialling single decker full EV buses from BYD. That is good news as they could help to bring their experience with them to Dublin.

loyatemu

you would hope BusConnects will also see some rationalisation of the bus stops - i.e. on the roads where the bus corridors are being built, put in one proper bus stop with a long platform (so a couple of buses can pull in); PIS screens, ticket machine, shelter, bike racks and then simultaneously decommission any other stops on that street. The plethora of stops causes delays because even if the bus you're on doesn't stop at all of them, if the bus ahead of you does then you get delayed too - this is the opportunity to fix that (on the main corridors at least).

roadmaster

If the government want the public to go electric they should lead by example and go all in with electric public transport options. Set a date where all urban buses are completely electric and speed up the electrification of the rail network . It may cost a lot money up front but they will safe money in the long run.