Homelessness and housing demonstration

rossmores

the march is about free houses there is a 400m deficit on the existing stock why would any tax payer would want more of the same hope it fcuking rains for them

shivermetimber

rossmores wrote: »

the march is about free houses there is a 400m deficit on the existing stock why would any tax payer would want more of the same hope it fcuking rains for them

I think you'll find it's actually advertised as a march 'for the crisis of homelessness, rents, the lack of affordable housing, and the vast shortage of social housing'.

PMBC

hmmm wrote: »

If they spent less time marching and more time working and paying taxes we'd have more money to spend on this.

I think the fundamental problem is most people don't believe the figures (there are not 10,000 "homeless"), and most taxpayers are sick of paying massive taxes which are going to what they perceive to be spongers.

It's also the case the people who have paid for their houses don't want to be living beside the unknown of social housing tenants, and it is clearly bad practice to build massive estates filled with just social housing. No politician will propose either, so there's a bit of a catch 22.

For most of people like myself its not a working day but I would freely work a day without pay if it all went to solve this problem. I never objected to paying more/high taxes as it came with earning more, always. I agree with most of what you say in 3rd para. - snobbery, poorly designed uni-model large estates.

I dont have a figure for homeless but would believe figures from Sr. Stan and similar.

NIMAN

PMBC wrote: »

For most of people like myself its not a working day but I would freely work a day without pay if it all went to solve this problem. I never objected to paying more/high taxes as it came with earning more, always. I agree with most of what you say in 3rd para. - snobbery, poorly designed uni-model large estates.

I dont have a figure for homeless but would believe figures from Sr. Stan and similar.

Why how many does Sr Stan say are homeless?

Wheeliebin30

Work hard in school kids you’ll be able to buy a nice house.

Don’t bother working hard in school kids as the fella who worked hard will just pay for your house which will be the same as his.

What ever happened to personal responsibility?

the_syco

shivermetimber wrote: »

I think you'll find it's actually advertised as a march 'for the crisis of homelessness, rents, the lack of affordable housing, and the vast shortage of social housing'.

I wonder if that really means there's a "vast shortage of social housing" in nice areas?

A few people ask if I'd live next to a drug dealer, travellers, etc, etc. Well, if I'm buying the house, I can choose. If I'm getting a house for shag all, with the only other option being the streets, I'll grab the house. But the other option is indefinite stay at random hotel, whilst being classed as homeless.

shivermetimber

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder if that really means there's a "vast shortage of social housing" in nice areas?

A few people ask if I'd live next to a drug dealer, travellers, etc, etc. Well, if I'm buying the house, I can choose. If I'm getting a house for shag all, with the only other option being the streets, I'll grab the house. But the other option is indefinite stay at random hotel, whilst being classed as homeless.

Social housing isn't just for homeless people. I think your understanding of the term is skewed somewhat.

Here is a good write up of what I consider social housing and the comments by Fiona deFreyne and Dave Doyle are good additions also.

fxotoole

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527


Also get rid of the damn stupid regulations that prevent “ruining the skyline” and build upwards in Dublin City center.

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

Browney7

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Work hard in school kids you’ll be able to buy a nice house.

Don’t bother working hard in school kids as the fella who worked hard will just pay for your house which will be the same as his.

What ever happened to personal responsibility?

Except people who have done the "right" thing and got an education and a job and provide for themselves are being bent over for tax and astronomical rents/mortgages etc with precarious employment with poor conditions and low pay having to rely on FIS - look at newly qualified teachers and nurses for instance emigrating hand over fist.

Meanwhile wealthy people are becoming ever wealthier with stock market and property price increases due to the wholesale money printing by central banks. Wealth and generational inequality is going to come home to roost and it won't be pretty

the_syco

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527

Can't read the article, as it demands that I pay money to do so. I assume this is the same article.

A nice idea. You'd still need to insulate it, though, and wire it. And plumb it. Also, buy the land. Plots of land inside Dublin are still insanely priced.

fxotoole wrote: »

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

So, move the problem? Out of sight, out of mind. How about we just skip the housing, and burn them alive, like the Nazi's did in the 40's? That also got rid of the junkies.

fxotoole wrote: »

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

Why bother paying rent if the government will house you for free?

fxotoole wrote: »

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

It'd move the junkies away from where they can receive help. The dealers can drive out to them, though.

shivermetimber wrote: »

Social housing isn't just for homeless people. I think your understanding of the term is skewed somewhat.

Here is a good write up of what I consider social housing

Landlords can evict from furnished apartments a lot easier than non furnished – that’s why they don’t move their stuff out.

No, they rent furnished apartments, as that's what the Irish expect. It's cheaper to rent unfurnished, as beds, couches, being damaged won't be the LL's problem, as it'll be the tenants property being damaged.

It is not the job of developers to plan for and provide housing for the citizens – that’s the State’s job

How is it the States job to house people who can afford to buy their own house?

If we put control in the hands of those whose interests are pure profit, we will end up with proposals for smaller units that won’t solve the housing crisis and create new social ills.

Minimum unit size is decided by government. They have reduced the size. People want cheap, people get cheap.

Previous social housing projects like Ballymun and other areas were failures and created massive social problems and generations of sidelined citizens – problems that you don’t see in more affluent areas.

The Ballymun flats failed because there wasn't enough money to fix the problems with them, not enough money to do maintenance, and the issues generally snowballed. Problems you don't see in affluent areas where people pay money to have these issues fixed.

If the building industry thinks this is unworkable, that they won’t attract investors because the profit margins are too low – then don’t do it. Let government do it, and contract the work for a fixed price to the standards determined by government.

The standards are currently determined by the government.

I don’t accept that no-one will take up the contract – we are in Europe with access to a European workforce.

So basically get in cheap labour? Ask France how well that turned out.

If they can do it in Germany, we can do it here

Really? Germany?

https://www.thelocal.de/20170405/what-you-need-to-know-when-renting-a-flat-in-germany-housing-apartment

“Particularly in the big cities and university towns, there is a shortage of thousands of apartments,” says Ropertz.

“The consequence is that rents - particularly those that come with the signing of new contracts - have been rising for years,” he warns.

In Germany you generally do not deal with the landlord directly but with the Hausverwaltung, which looks after a portfolio of properties for the landlords.

The Hausverwaltung sounds like an Estate Agent. And the issues sound like Ireland.

So when someone says "If they can do it in Germany, we can do it here" I wonder "they can do WHAT in Germany"?

BoatMad

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527


Also get rid of the damn stupid regulations that prevent “ruining the skyline” and build upwards in Dublin City center.

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

I see no reason to throw away planing laws simply to solve a temporary crisis or to simply in effect re-build tenements and failed high rise apartments

GarIT

BoatMad wrote: »

I see no reason to throw away planing laws simply to solve a temporary crisis or to simply in effect re-build tenements and failed high rise apartments

The planning laws in Dublin are insane. It should be forbidden to build anything under 20 stories in the city rather than the other way around. Dublin needs functionality, **** how it looks.

NIMAN

GarIT wrote: »

The planning laws in Dublin are insane. It should be forbidden to build anything under 20 stories in the city rather than the other way around. Dublin needs functionality, **** how it looks.

Totally agree.

Look at all the other progressive capital cities around the world.....they don't have these nonsense rules in place and don't look any the worse for it.

davo10

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/a-3d-printed-house-10-000-urban-igloo-was-built-in-a-day-1.2999527


Also get rid of the damn stupid regulations that prevent “ruining the skyline” and build upwards in Dublin City center.

Any homeless that are addicts should be moved out of the city centre to 3D printed housing estates in counties neighbouring Dublin.

Any homeless that are working and paying taxes should be housed in high rise apartment blocks in the city centre close to their workplaces.

This would not only solve the homelessness crisis but also clean up the junkies fronm the city centre

Dear God, why buy a 3D printer, a few sheets of ply and saw will do.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/lifestyle/homes-and-property/irish-housing-crisis-shed-dublin-12308697.amp

Of course, planning, electricity, insulation, water and sewage helps, but crack on with the printer by all means.

BoatMad

GarIT wrote: »

The planning laws in Dublin are insane. It should be forbidden to build anything under 20 stories in the city rather than the other way around. Dublin needs functionality, **** how it looks.

never, an aesthetic must prevail, cities need to far more then functional , they should be beautiful , as well , or would you rather soviet style buildings

Dublin is a historic low rise city , there is scope for certain areas to tolerate higher buildings

none of that is a solution to the homelessness crisis, there is no shortage of land

jimmycrackcorm

fxotoole wrote: »

The government needs to start thinking outside the box and doing things like 3D printing houses, which would get houses built in 24 hours and save 70% on construction costs:

People were out objecting to the modular housing initiative by DCC. That was thinking outside the box. But a lot of the homeless crisis is an ideological manipulation by the Anti-Everything Alliance and other extremes.

This is how bad that got: Modular homes in Ballymun delayed after security staff threatened by people in balaclavas

As for joining a homeless demonstrations, I'd suggest it should really be an Anti-nimby demonstration.

TheRealPONeil

"a lot of the homeless crisis is an ideological aversion to" - actually providing homes for people - did anyone think of that?

rossmores

Its a chance for the 70 homeless organizations to promote and push the usual anti landlord free house socialist agenda and all looking for govt funds too and maybe with a lidl help
Welcome the 2018 scroungers and spongers festival i wonder will ye have Bono on ur side

Wanderer78

Maybe the real 'scroungers' are in fact our 'modern rentier class', 'extracting' wealth from our societies, including from many landlords?

Graces7

rossmores wrote: »

Its a chance for the 70 homeless organizations to promote and push the usual anti landlord free house socialist agenda and all looking for govt funds too and maybe with a lidl help
Welcome the 2018 scroungers and spongers festival i wonder will ye have Bono on ur side

No one gets a free house, Trust me on that! And not all needing a house are scroungers etc,, REALLY!

Bubbaclaus

Graces7 wrote: »

No one gets a free house, Trust me on that!

Except everyone living off assistance welfare payments in social housing. The measly percentage of rent they pay is coming from money given to them by the taxpayer anyway.

So all of them are quite literally getting a free house.

Wanderer78

Bubbaclaus wrote:

Except everyone living off assistance welfare payments in social housing. The measly percentage of rent they pay is coming from money given to them by the taxpayer anyway.

'free', it's rather Orwellian in reality!

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

No one gets a free house, Trust me on that! And not all needing a house are scroungers etc,, REALLY!

Its not free- no, but it is at a portion of the cost of supplying the property- and that portion is picked up by the taxpayer.

We have 2.2 million taxpayers in this country.
They paid over 13 billion in income tax in 2007.
Today- employment is back up to 2.2 million- however, the same number of workers now pay 21 billion in income tax.
The average worker- pays over 60% more direct tax today- than they did in 2007.

In addition- our national debt was 51 billion in 2007.
Today it is just under 200 billion.
It costs just under 8 billion per annum to service this debt.

Contrary to all the stories in the media- and the rosy image that the politicians like to portray- the average worker in Ireland is struggling- and the government is playing mindgames with the electorate- who are expecting some sort of largess in the upcoming budget (as its going to be the final budget before the general election).

Homeless campaigners- are telling people that the government has a cool 1 billion extra in its pocket to put towards 'solving the homeless crisis'. Age Action Ireland is advocating a 40 Euro a week increase in the pension rates for both contributory and non-contributory pensions- and a rollback on the new method of calculating entitlements (based on actual taxes paid). The Public sector want the payscales for new staff abolished- and more teachers, nurses, Gardai and other frontline staff employed etc.

The government has done nothing to quell all these notions of largess that people imagine are going to be tied up in a nice bow this autumn.

We cannot afford a massive housing programme- and we can't afford anything else either- but by god- the ability to afford something- is not going to stop any of them............

We have a mess.
We are unable to agree on precisely what the mess is- or how to cleanup the mess.

Wanderer78

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not free- no, but it is at a portion of the cost of supplying the property- and that portion is picked up by the taxpayer.

We have 2.2 million taxpayers in this country.
They paid over 13 billion in income tax in 2007.
Today- employment is back up to 2.2 million- however, the same number of workers now pay 21 billion in income tax.
The average worker- pays over 60% more direct tax today- than they did in 2007.

In addition- our national debt was 51 billion in 2007.
Today it is just under 200 billion.
It costs just under 8 billion per annum to service this debt.

Contrary to all the stories in the media- and the rosy image that the politicians like to portray- the average worker in Ireland is struggling- and the government is playing mindgames with the electorate- who are expecting some sort of largess in the upcoming budget (as its going to be the final budget before the general election).

Homeless campaigners- are telling people that the government has a cool 1 billion extra in its pocket to put towards 'solving the homeless crisis'. Age Action Ireland is advocating a 40 Euro a week increase in the pension rates for both contributory and non-contributory pensions- and a rollback on the new method of calculating entitlements (based on actual taxes paid). The Public sector want the payscales for new staff abolished- and more teachers, nurses, Gardai and other frontline staff employed etc.

The government has done nothing to quell all these notions of largess that people imagine are going to be tied up in a nice bow this autumn.

We cannot afford a massive housing programme- and we can't afford anything else either- but by god- the ability to afford something- is not going to stop any of them............

We have a mess.
We are unable to agree on precisely what the mess is- or how to cleanup the mess.

ah yes, 'the debt burden', but in reality, the real debt burden is in fact 'private debt', which has been largely created by the inflation of asset prices, in particular housing! we must accept, that the abilities and capabilities of 'the efficient market hypothesis' of producing our actual needs is nothing but a myth, as it is neither capable or efficient in doing so.

we cannot afford to have our most critical of societal needs such as housing to fail, but it is in fact occurring, slowly and painfully. we should prepare for the catastrophic social fall out of these events, i.e. the damage is done and our political institutions are lost.

Idbatterim

Right. Firstly anyone who thinks there isn’t a crisis obviously isn’t looking to rent or buy in Dublin or is one of them. “I’m alright jack brigade” got their house for a pittance decades ago or has inherited etc. also this bull**** if “ there is no quick fix” LOL change the apartment guidelines , basically just ditch dual aspect and ease height restrictions, they will be building them hand over fist. Changing the regulations costs nothing. That is the problem. Sick of hearing bull****, “there is no easy / quick fix” there is. Preferably I think the state should simply contract out the building and provide “cost only” etc, rentals ... but if they are so opposed to even changing aisrhrbt regulations, good luck with them actually doing something that would help tenants over developers. See fg have a real issue , the fall out of their desire to see escalating house prices ...

Carlos Orange

The_Conductor wrote: »

We cannot afford a massive housing programme- and we can't afford anything else either- but by god- the ability to afford something- is not going to stop any of them............

Dublin City Council spend more than €100,000,000 a year on homeless services.
I don't see why that isn't plenty to provide housing for all 'homeless' people. More money isn't needed. They just need to spend it on providing people a roof over their head that meets a minimum standard instead of trying to give people for free (or close to free) the kind of homes that people need to work hard to pay for themselves. It's a nonsense that as I understand it HAP requires better standards than normal rental properties.

Idbatterim

splinter65 wrote: »

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Well I suppose you can be cynical and sneery and stay at home but a well attended demonstration can illustrate the anger of the people and give the government some food for thought with an election in the not too distant future.

What do you think the government should be doing that they’re not doing, and which other public service will they pull the money from in order to service your ideas?

let me answer this. They will have billions to send up in smoke in budget 2019. Maybe they could start there? There is no shortage of money in this country ...

hmmm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we must accept, that the abilities and capabilities of 'the efficient market hypothesis' of producing our actual needs is nothing but a myth, as it is neither capable or efficient in doing so.

Our housing market is a million miles away from an "efficient market", we have endless numbers of rules and regulations (including social housing obligations), along with artificial restrictions through planning permission. On top of that, the government takes vast sums in taxes from old and new house buyers.

Get the government out of the process and we will supply the housing we need.

Wanderer78

hmmm wrote: »

Our housing market is a million miles away from an "efficient market", we have endless numbers of rules and regulations (including social housing obligations), along with artificial restrictions through planning permission. On top of that, the government takes vast sums in taxes from old and new house buyers.

Get the government out of the process and we will supply the housing we need.

again, the abilities and capabilities of 'the efficient market hypothesis' is a myth, neoclassical theory is a bust, period, we must move on from all this supply and demand, and market equilibrium nonsense

Arcade_Tryer

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It's not like it's a political issue like the 8th amendment which is demonstrating the will of the people and a change to the law. Everyone knows there's an issue, everyone wants there not to be an issue, the problem is the cost to fix it which isn't available.

That's a massive assumption.

The_Conductor wrote: »

We cannot afford a massive housing programme- and we can't afford anything else either- but by god- the ability to afford something- is not going to stop any of them............

The tragedy is that a massive housing programme is not needed to significantly improve the housing market. De-regulation of ridiculous height restrictions, land taxes, and two fingers to "local objections" and anyone who uses the word "heritage" seriously in an argument against development would go a long way to achieving a more functional, efficient market.