Homelessness and housing demonstration

hmmm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, the abilities and capabilities of 'the efficient market hypothesis' is a myth, neoclassical theory is a bust, period, we must move on from all this supply and demand, and market equilibrium nonsense

You will fit right in with the march. Down with this supply and demand nonsense.

Wanderer78

hmmm wrote: »

You will fit right in with the march. Down with this supply and demand nonsense.

unfortunately our left leaning groups are almost as clueless as any other groups, in trying to solve this issue, as far as i can see, there is no solution for the short to medium term, and it doesnt matter who you vote in, i.e. expect to see our homeless numbers to grow

Viscount Aggro

Goddamn it. Welfare subsidises people via HAP or RAS. Stop saying its free housing... they pay something like e25 per week towards the rent.

A guy I know, he is in a 1 bedroom apartment in Dalkey, only pays e25 per week out of his dole wages.

Idbatterim

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Goddamn it. Welfare subsidises people via HAP or RAS. Stop saying its free housing... they pay something like e25 per week towards the rent.

A guy I know, he is in a 1 bedroom apartment in Dalkey, only pays e25 per week out of his dole wages.

Aha ha ha ha! Good be. Possibly boards vestvtrolll yet. E25 a week. Such a contribution with the free money they get from the state. People are paying over e800 for a room in Dublin in a house share ... e25 a week. Pathetic!

Arthur Daley

The_Conductor wrote: »

In addition- our national debt was 51 billion in 2007.
Today it is just under 200 billion.
It costs just under 8 billion per annum to service this debt..

Cui Bono?

Of course we voted for 'change' in 2011. Noonan had a stated policy of high house prices to prevent the banks from a perpetual bust. We presume this Fianna Gael policy continues so there simply is no problem for the government despite what Fianna Gael may say. Varadkar thinks you should head off to Australia to make some money. Then you can afford a house.

Question is why does everyone need to be kettled into Dublin anyway. When technology means location is less and less relevant.

Idbatterim

Yeah they can work remotely. But technology can’t change the fact Dublin is incomparable to other Irish towns culturally and socially

Wanderer78

eric_bristow wrote:

all you need to know about left wingers is that they are always wrong about everything all of the time

Being a proud lefty, I'm obviously gonna disagree, but 'left leaning' parties shur have made a mess of things

Topgear on Dave

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Being a proud lefty, I'm obviously gonna disagree, but 'left leaning' parties shur have made a mess of things

I heard Richard Boyd Barrett TD on the radio earlier loudly "telling it like it is" and saying what other TDs need to do.


A hurler from the ditch.

Wanderer78

Topgear on Dave wrote:

I heard Richard Boyd Barrett TD on the radio earlier loudly "telling it like it is" and saying what other TDs need to do.

Even if he and his party went into government, they actually wouldn't be able to change much, as democracy would be required for such changes

Topgear on Dave

Oh he'd never go in... never ever. He'd be exposed for the easy solution peddling bull****ter that he is.

Wheeliebin30

I still can’t fathom how people quote the Nordic country’s or Germany as a way to do things.

They all have more homeless than Ireland.

Not one country in the world has zero homeless, stop thinking Ireland has the solutions.

Sweden has 32,000 homeless ffs.

toptom

Anti social parasites that wont get off their holes and work so they can afford a home.

Wheeliebin30

toptom wrote: »

Anti social parasites that wont get off their holes and work so they can afford a home.

Why bother?

doolox

Many non workers are disabled.
Many are educationally subnormal.
Many have criminal histories which make it highly unlikely they will get a job.
Many come from socio-economic backgrounds which make it hard to get a job.

In the past many of these people were put in mental asylums, workhouses etc. This is not a new problem although the approaches to its existence have changed over time.

Calling them scroungers and parasites is counterproductive.

hawkelady

doolox wrote: »

Many non workers are disabled.
Many are educationally subnormal.
Many have criminal histories which make it highly unlikely they will get a job.
Many come from socio-economic backgrounds which make it hard to get a job.

In the past many of these people were put in mental asylums, workhouses etc. This is not a new problem although the approaches to its existence have changed over time.

Calling them scroungers and parasites is counterproductive.

Calling a spade a spade !! All the while the middle/working class getting rode again while these pyjama wearing folks continue to drink in pubs of a Tuesday evening .. let them upskill and pay high taxes like the rest of us ! Scroungers

Wheeliebin30

doolox wrote: »

Many non workers are disabled.
Many are educationally subnormal.
Many have criminal histories which make it highly unlikely they will get a job.
Many come from socio-economic backgrounds which make it hard to get a job.

In the past many of these people were put in mental asylums, workhouses etc. This is not a new problem although the approaches to its existence have changed over time.

Calling them scroungers and parasites is counterproductive.

And many aren’t any of the above.

End of.

GarIT

doolox wrote: »

workhouses

This is exactly what we need. 8 hours of labor 5 days a week and you get a roof over your head, 3 healthy meals and €10 a day spending money, if they don't like it they can **** off and sleep on the streets. Except if they are seriously ill or disabled.

jimmycrackcorm

Pixel Eater wrote:

There is European funds for such things that they can draw down that are off balance sheet and with low interest. Plus they spend millions providing hotel rooms to homeless families already.

Money isn't the real issue. Even if you threw billions now the shortage of builders would just mean 1000 euro per day brickies.

NAMA would be in an ideal position shortly to turn into a national housing development agency, once its current remit runs out. It has both the financial and development expertise. But as other posters have pointed out it's all the other factors that are significantly blocking, from nimbyism to over regulation.

Remove the need for private developers to provide social housing. Let the state build council estates again. Then they can reverse the current stipulation so that a percentage of that can be sold to non social low income earners for the much vaunted inclusion policy.

JupiterKid

The opinions expressed by some on here would literally turn your stomach. Yes, let’s bring back the workhouse and forced labor. Utter drivel and utter far right wing ignorance. Perhaps if those posters making such ignorant suggestions spent a fortnight in the workhouse perhaps they’d change their tune? Perhaps Renua could reform and recruit 50% of the posters on this forum?

Anyone thinking that “free houses” are a recent phenomenon should look up the Housing Act 1966, which introduced the differential rents system, where social housing tenants pay a proportion of their income toward their rent, be it the basic dole or a higher earned income.

Unlike many if not most on this thread I know something about housing as I have published work on housing policy and yes there is a serious homeless crisis, and a massive programme of direct social housing provision is one of the key solutions. The problem is political - FG want to maintain high prices and rents to keep votes among the property owning class.

Over reliance on subsidizing the private rented sector to house low income tenants who would have been in the social housing sector since the early 1990s after a major shift away from direct social housing provision seemed like a good idea at the time in a very different economic environment but it is completely unsuitable now. It has also greatly distorted the market for young professionals looking to rent. Air B and B has added to the problem.

Major urban planning reforms of building heights and dwelling layouts are also badly needed. Homelesness will probably never be eradicated but major inroads to address the problem can be made if the political will is there.

Graces7

Looking at alternative housing.. Think I will start a new thread?

The_Conductor

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Money isn't the real issue. Even if you threw billions now the shortage of builders would just mean 1000 euro per day brickies.

We actually have a remarkable situation- akin to that which we had at the height of the boom a decade ago- where brickies, electricians, carpenters- and other construction workers- earn significantly more- than surgeons and others who are involved in life and death situations on a daily basis.

If you throw money at the situation- as we have done- all you do is inflate prices. including the price of labour, exorbitantly. It is not the case that you can simply throw money at it- we have been there, done that- and can see that its failed.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

NAMA would be in an ideal position shortly to turn into a national housing development agency, once its current remit runs out. It has both the financial and development expertise. But as other posters have pointed out it's all the other factors that are significantly blocking, from nimbyism to over regulation.

Turning NAMA into a housing development agency- is so far from its core remit- that while I understand where you're coming from- its a sombre and sad situation- that we are actually coming up with suggestions such as this. Aside from any other factor- NAMA was structured such that it was very difficult for it to make a loss (its difficult to loose money when you've only paid 40 or 50c on the Euro for the loans you're flogging. However, that aside- NAMA is slowly closing and is saying goodbye to its staff, as their services are no longer necessary. If it came out in the media that the average person in NAMA on an average salary of over 90k per annum- was moved over to a housing agency- there would be uproar.............

Anyhow- in an Irish context- NAMA was far more vested and involved in the commercial and office sector- than it was in the residential property sector. When you look at some things that they did do in the residential property sector- such as completing thousands of properties in ghost estates around the country- that now, complete, are as unsaleable as they were as husks/shells- you have to ask yourself- do they actually have the expertise and the knowledge that people are ascribing to them?

There are thousands of fully complete residential properties- that NAMA own nationally- that private buyers aren't interested in- and local authorities have refused to accept.......... Someone somewhere screwed up royally.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Remove the need for private developers to provide social housing. Let the state build council estates again. Then they can reverse the current stipulation so that a percentage of that can be sold to non social low income earners for the much vaunted inclusion policy.

Easier said than done. Look at the current situation where a few poor unfortunate people have committed suicide rather than accept 'council housing' in estates that are perceived to be socially divisive (the whole unfortunate Clonburris mess is going ahead nonetheless). People assume they can live where they want- in a house that they like- and they have a right to this- and if they don't get it- they would rather give up altogether. And you have the whole Sinn Féin, People Before Profit brigade- pouring petrol on these flames- two organisations are actually giving media training to tenants to help them sell their cases in the media if they don't get what they want- and you know what- it works. Look at Erica Flemming and her 'forever home' campaign- which she is selling to anyone who'll listen.

We need large numbers of council estates- which should be available to anyone to buy- not just social welfare tenants- however, I would suggest that there should be a maximum divestment of 40%- and I would also suggest that of the rest of the units- they should be in perpetual public ownership- there should be no tenant sales- if a tenant wants to buy a property- fine- give them a mortgage- however, its not for the house they're in- those are not for sale- they are for those who can't, for whatever reason, afford to house themselves.

Getting rid of our stock of local authority housing- was one of the worst mistakes ever made in this country. The schemes in Scotland and elsewhere which were used as justification for the Irish schemes- have all been reversed- there is no justification for us to keep flogging a dead horse.

JupiterKid wrote: »

The opinions expressed by some on here would literally turn your stomach. Yes, let’s bring back the workhouse and forced labor. Utter drivel and utter far right wing ignorance. Perhaps if those posters making such ignorant suggestions spent a fortnight in the workhouse perhaps they’d change their tune? Perhaps Renua could reform and recruit 50% of the posters on this forum?

Most people in this forum- probably couldn't tell you a single policy that Renua have- much less name a single Renua representative on either the local or national stage.

If there are a significant cohort of people expressing views which are representative of those of Renua- perhaps the bigger issue is that the current cohort of politicians are presiding over a country which is becoming more devisive in nature. If you look at the fact that we had 2.2 million workers in Ireland paying 13.4 billion in income tax in 2007- and you now have 2.2 million workers in Ireland paying 22.6 billion in income tax 11 years later- its a fair and reasonable assumption that you're going to have a large cohort of voters out there who are seething, some quietly, some not so quietly. To dismiss the concerns of this cohort of the population- out of hand- when they have never given more than is now asked of them- and suggesting they are loopy right wing nuts- is simply a game of name calling.

We need an inclusive society- where all members of society are valued.
We need a society where it makes sense to be a productive member of the population.
These two statements- should not be exclusive- however, for a significant cohort on both sides of the equation- they are.

Labeling people- and presuming this consequent labeling means they hold particular views- quite simply is fraught with dangers (crowd mentality notwithstanding).

JupiterKid wrote: »

Anyone thinking that “free houses” are a recent phenomenon should look up the Housing Act 1966, which introduced the differential rents system, where social housing tenants pay a proportion of their income toward their rent, be it the basic dole or a higher earned income.

Thats fine. Its not been discussed properly- and as a moderator of this forum- I for one would welcome a frank and factually based discussion of this system- which would be educational for all. And if people got out of line- and started spouting crap to support agendas- they'd get shut down. If you're happy to start a thread on this topic- and explain it to people- I will do my utmost to support you.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Unlike many if not most on this thread I know something about housing as I have published work on housing policy and yes there is a serious homeless crisis, and a massive programme of direct social housing provision is one of the key solutions. The problem is political - FG want to maintain high prices and rents to keep votes among the property owning class.

The problem *is* political, yes. The population are fickle though- its actually sad to see how sentiment evolves- anyone who spent any time at all looking at the situation is most probably saddened- and can tell how something is going to play out........... Its easy to see how people are loosing faith in the demographic processes- when their vote doesn't seem to mean much- and even when they kick a government out- the incumbents manage to rig the system (in the eyes of many) to sell the same old crap, scarcely repackaged- and then they're told that the politicians 'have a mandate' to sell the same crap, yet again.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Over reliance on subsidizing the private rented sector to house low income tenants who would have been in the social housing sector since the early 1990s after a major shift away from direct social housing provision seemed like a good idea at the time in a very different economic environment but it is completely unsuitable now. It has also greatly distorted the market for young professionals looking to rent. Air B and B has added to the problem.

Yes- we are in a different economic environment. However, its incredibly difficult to take something back from someone once you give it to them. So- you have social welfare tenants who have an expectation that they are 'entitled' to a 3-4 bed semi- with a garden- where they want to live. Meanwhile- you have Gardaí, nurses, teachers, civil servants- and others- who are told they are working in Dublin- having to commute from Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick, Galway and in some cases- Sligo- or live in their cars during the week and go home to their families at the weekend- because they can't afford even the most basic of accommodation- within commuting distance of work. The perception is that you are better off not working- and its actually true for a subset of the population.

As to where rental properties are- and whether they suit- and the whole phenomena of Air-bnb etc- the stated aim of many politicians is to drive small scale landlords from the sector- if not through a toxic regulatory regime- and taxation policy- then by whatever means are necessary (appropriation of property was mentioned several times yesterday- as a solution). We are actually at this situation. And the politicians who have the power to dictate policy- aren't- because its seen as not being a vote winner. Well- if/when the likes of Renua start to hoover up votes- perhaps they'll be forced to situp and take note (and I say this in complete ignorance of any policies that Renua have).

The current system- was devised in a different time. The current politicians do not have the guts to change it- when its almost certain they'll be vilified in the media- and have protests on Kildare street. So- we have a system of fixes and fudges- to gently kick the various issues into the long grass- a little further down the road- where they become someone else's problem. Well- there is a limit to how much long grass there is out there- and we're now at the situation- where we're likely to have hugely divisive rightwing and leftwing parties in our houses of the Oireachtas- and however ungovernable the country is now- just wait until Renua and Sinn Féin are flinging insults across the chamber at one another..............

We have the means to deal with this head-on- we do not however have the willpower to do so.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Major urban planning reforms of building heights and dwelling layouts are also badly needed. Homelesness will probably never be eradicated but major inroads to address the problem can be made if the political will is there.

+1
So what that Dublin historically is a lowrise city.
It was designed (or not designed as the case may be)- to support the population as it then was. Today- we have different priorities. We need high density housing units- of a size suitable for both singletons and families. We need a supply of units that people can migrate to as their circumstances change. We need to be able to get our workers to and from work- without many of them feeling they have no option but to live in their cars- and the median needing to claim FIS just to survive. We need people who are unable to house themselves- to accept that they don't get to pick and choose where they want to live- and other people also have the right to their support networks etc.

In Ireland- the rights of the individual- seem to trump the rights of society.
We need both common sense- which in the context of Dublin means abandoning our aversion to high rise and high density housing units- alongside a realisation- lots of people can't live where they want to or need to. We have thousands of brandnew units nationally- that 'homeless' people won't live in. We cannot afford to allow people be precious and give in to outrageous demands- there has to be a middle road, compromises that don't give anyone everything that they want- but don't crucify anyone either.

GarIT

JupiterKid wrote: »

The opinions expressed by some on here would literally turn your stomach. Yes, let’s bring back the workhouse and forced labor. Utter drivel and utter far right wing ignorance. Perhaps if those posters making such ignorant suggestions spent a fortnight in the workhouse perhaps they’d change their tune? Perhaps Renua could reform and recruit 50% of the posters on this forum?

Anyone thinking that “free houses” are a recent phenomenon should look up the Housing Act 1966, which introduced the differential rents system, where social housing tenants pay a proportion of their income toward their rent, be it the basic dole or a higher earned income.

Unlike many if not most on this thread I know something about housing as I have published work on housing policy and yes there is a serious homeless crisis, and a massive programme of direct social housing provision is one of the key solutions. The problem is political - FG want to maintain high prices and rents to keep votes among the property owning class.

Over reliance on subsidizing the private rented sector to house low income tenants who would have been in the social housing sector since the early 1990s after a major shift away from direct social housing provision seemed like a good idea at the time in a very different economic environment but it is completely unsuitable now. It has also greatly distorted the market for young professionals looking to rent. Air B and B has added to the problem.

Major urban planning reforms of building heights and dwelling layouts are also badly needed. Homelesness will probably never be eradicated but major inroads to address the problem can be made if the political will is there.

There are people in this country that will never work a day in their lives by choice. It's so easy to make yourself unemployable so that the social can't touch you. These people are being given their €200 a week and a free roof over their heads. The social will send them for an interview and they will show up in a tracksuit and mumble their words and talk themselves down as much as they can to make sure they aren't bothered for another six months. Nothing will change their ways other than a full cut off from any benefits. We need a system of gauranteed employment to replace handouts, if you can't find a job yourself you can pick up litter, cut grass and clean graffiti; if you don't cooperate there shouldn't be any money for you.

What would actully turn your stomach is the treatment of students compared to these guys. If you scratch your arse, play playstaton and drink cans all day you get €200 per week. If you're doing a 40 hour per week science degree, you get ~€60 per week and you have no access to any of the housing supports or any other supports available to the scum that will never work a day in their lives.

Seems to be trouble in paradise. Lots of comments on social media about who attended yesterday’s protest or who didn’t. Labour Party and Erica Fleming getting some stick.

It was a good turnout. However, people are beginning to see these marches for what they really are. Electioneering by minority groups.

Graces7

GarIT wrote: »

There are people in this country that will never work a day in their lives by choice. It's so easy to make yourself unemployable so that the social can't touch you. These people are being given their €200 a week and a free roof over their heads. The social will send them for an interview and they will show up in a tracksuit and mumble their words and talk themselves down as much as they can to make sure they aren't bothered for another six months. Nothing will change their ways other than a full cut off from any benefits. We need a system of gauranteed employment to replace handouts, if you can't find a job yourself you can pick up litter, cut grass and clean graffiti; if you don't cooperate there shouldn't be any money for you.

What would actully turn your stomach is the treatment of students compared to these guys. If you scratch your arse, play playstaton and drink cans all day you get €200 per week. If you're doing a 40 hour per week science degree, you get ~€60 per week and you have no access to any of the housing supports or any other supports available to the scum that will never work a day in their lives.

Sweeping statements; proof please?

GarIT

Graces7 wrote: »

Sweeping statements; proof please?

How do you prove something like that?

If you accept there are people who are determined not to work then it's not a big jump to say that all the talking to them about finding a job in the world won't convince them to find a job.

There are plenty of people completely happy with €200 and week and don't see any reason why they should support themselves.

Graces7

GarIT wrote: »

How do you prove something like that?

If you accept there are people who are determined not to work then it's not a big jump to say that all the talking to them about finding a job in the world won't convince them to find a job.

There are plenty of people completely happy with €200 and week and don't see any reason why they should support themselves.

Hearsay. I do not know anyone like that.and also MYOB. Neither you nor i know these folk in person.

Bubbaclaus

Graces7 wrote: »

Hearsay. I do not know anyone like that.and also MYOB. Neither you nor i know these folk in person.

But we pay for everything they do.

GarIT

Graces7 wrote: »

Hearsay. I do not know anyone like that.and also MYOB. Neither you nor i know these folk in person.

I do actually. I live in quite a rough part of Dublin and almost everyone living around me has that attitude.

Where taxpayer money is spent is everyone's business.

littelady

Just plunging random figures out of my head as I leave the house....a quick question for you lefties please answer honestly.

1- to those of you who work would you happily contribute €1,000 throughout the year in a new taxation to help fund the homeless

2- to those on the dole I'm not inc those who have a real disability would you happily loose €50 per week to help the homeless.

Fol20

It’s hard not to paint them all with the same brush though. From my own experience one of my tenants pay 30e a month while the gov pay the balance. Somehow they could afford to buy a 171 car last year when I’m still driving my beater car around. So yes I do think the system is not right. Everyone should have to at least pay a fair share of it. Maybe not the entire amount if they are struggling but as others mentioned you have to take responsibility for your own situation