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Should gay conversion therapy be banned in Ireland?
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Deleted User wrote: »It could be a platypus
But I do not think a discussion of this nature gets resolved by recourse to cliched catch phrases any more than by people shouting "nonsense" at things they personally do not like
Okay but how do you square away someone who says they are straight but continues to have gay sex? I mean I can say I look like Brad Pitt but it won't make it true to anyone but myself and I would only be deluding myself.0 -
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silverharp wrote: »Vegetarian is a mental choice, there is no compulsion involved, on the other hand If someone has a serious nut allergy for example, it means something.
I suppose some would argue they are compelled by their own innate moral system. They did not decide to be vegetarian so much as they could not bring themselves to be vegetarian given everything else they feel think and believe.
I do know some people with some serious allergies who periodically indulge. With all the needles and materials at hand to deal with the effects. I even know someone who has an allergy to bees strong enough that one sting could very much potentially kill him. Amazingly - and all respect for his suicidal dedication to his love of it - he keeps bees 0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »I suppose some would argue they are compelled by their own innate moral system. They did not decide to be vegetarian so much as they could not bring themselves to be vegetarian given everything else they feel think and believe.
I do know some people with some serious allergies who periodically indulge. With all the needles and materials at hand to deal with the effects. I even know someone who has an allergy to bees strong enough that one sting could very much potentially kill him. Amazingly - and all respect for his suicidal dedication to his love of it - he keeps bees
in my own example there is the possibility that its your favourite food so probably not the best example.
A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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This is me done for the weekend everyone - thanks for the interesting debate. I love language as I said so anything that sparks a deep discussion on how it works is something I appreciate. Anyway the first weekend of the month is always house party weekend for me and my friends and so I have to go home now and cook. And cook. And cook. And make dips. Man I love dips.
So assuming no mod comes in and rails on us for being off topic - I will respond to anything further come monday.I'm sure I'm either misreading or misunderstanding this but is it not always attraction? Be that physical or emotional (regardless of gender) but in my experience people tend to express themselves sexually (if you want to put it like that) with people they are somehow attracted to?
Yes that is it 100% exactly. I think we are converging or at least I might be getting my point across. Which clearly I seem to be bad at
But the _key_ to that stuff you wrote is the word "somehow" that you used. They have been attracted to that person _somehow_ and formed a powerful relationship with them. Then they express that relationship in many way - including sexually.
In other words the _somehow_ in question did not involve their sexual orientation but in fact bypassed it.The sexual relationship forms without it or even despite it.No one has claimed it does. I certainly haven't. Nor would I. I would define human sexual orientation as; straight, gay, bisexual, asexual
As would I - and as I said it is useful to stick a flag in common ground. To find where we diverge it pays not to forget where we wholly agree.
The difference lies in the fact that I -If a woman straight all her life yet ends up marrying another woman she's bisexual.
- would not reflexively make that move without further reason to as I realise that the choice to enter into a romantic and even physical relationship can be sparked by _more than_ just the orientations we define and agree on. So I would not assume based on nothing that that choice is indicative of orientation alone.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Or an example that mere gender based attractions are not the only path way towards a sexual relationship. That human relationships can be formed on many levels in many ways - and having formed can be expressed and explored in many ways - including physically.
I do not buy the idea - so far one that comes without any evidence at all - that sexual expression only has one single basis in the human animal.
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[Deleted User] wrote: »But again - sexual orientation is defined by who you your attractions are generally orientated towards - not who you are actively having sex with. You can be straight and have a lot of homosexual sex. So who you are in a relationship with is not a definition of your orientation at all.
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To be fair, I would agree that in some cases like sex workers they can be straight yet have gay encounters, but that's not by choice. Ditto cor prisoners in gaol. That's the difference for me. If someone chooses in an environment that allows choice to happily engage in sexual relationships with people outside their stated orientation then IMO they're only kidding themselves.dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
And TBH I dunno why they're doing so. What are they denying? I mean you're gay, straight, or bi and so what? I've heard tell of men and women saying they've had gay experiences, often more than one, but are sticking to the "but I'm straight" line. Surely if they believed being gay, or bi was part of normal human sexuality then they'd just say "well I'm bi, no biggie"?
Like earlier TaxAH(IIRC?) mentioned that sometimes lads show up in the LBGT forum hereabouts worried that they're having "gay thoughts" maybe getting off on gay porn or whatever looking for answers and it appears reassurance that "no it's OK you're probably not gay". And apparently that reassurance is given? Again that makes little sense for me.
I'd say especially on a forum of folks like that. Would it not be better to suggest; "meh don't sweat it, you're probably a little bi and that sort of thing sometimes appeals to that part of you. It certainly doesn't mean you're abnormal or that you'll follow through in the real world, but I'd not worry about it anyway"? I just have the thought that the reassurance approach is kinda suggesting that being gay or bi is somehow negative, so guys(or gals) need reassurance that they're not. If you know what I mean?
Actually does this happen going the other way? Do people know gay folks who identify as such who go into romantic relationships, or regular sexual hookups with their opposite gender and still claim to be wholly gay, rather than bi? I've never heard of that, but I am wondering.
*EDIT* down the years I have heard bi folks getting some static from both straight and gay people. The "pick a side FFS" angle. Maybe that's a social barrier to coming out as bisexual?Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.
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To be fair, I would agree that in some cases like sex workers they can be straight yet have gay encounters, but that's not by choice. Ditto cor prisoners in gaol. That's the difference for me. If someone chooses in an environment that allows choice to happily engage in sexual relationships with people outside their stated orientation then IMO they're only kidding themselves.
And TBH I dunno why they're doing so. What are they denying? I mean you're gay, straight, or bi and so what? I've heard tell of men and women saying they've had gay experiences, often more than one, but are sticking to the "but I'm straight" line. Surely if they believed being gay, or bi was part of normal human sexuality then they'd just say "well I'm bi, no biggie"?
I think one of the reasons people who espouse that point of view, that for them someone else being gay or bi is no biggie, but the suggestion that they themselves may be gay or bi is offensive, is because they're not nearly so cool with the idea as they would want everyone else to believe about them. I've come across it many times where people would be all cool with things as long as it squares with their perception, but anything outside of that is completely rejected.
It's that kind of self-denial that forces them to come up with terminology like same gender loving to excuse themselves from having to acknowledge that being "on the down low" is just gay, or bi, or whatever. I kinda feel bad for their predicament and the cognitive gymnastics involved, but at the same time I can't help but be bemused by it. I understand it, but at the same time it's easy for me to dismiss their attempts to explain it as "not the exact same concept as being gay/bi, etc" as nonsense. I don't care what they call it, we both know we're talking about the same bloody thing.Like earlier TaxAH(IIRC?) mentioned that sometimes lads show up in the LBGT forum hereabouts worried that they're having "gay thoughts" maybe getting off on gay porn or whatever looking for answers and it appears reassurance that "no it's OK you're probably not gay". And apparently that reassurance is given? Again that makes little sense for me.
I'd say especially on a forum of folks like that. Would it not be better to suggest; "meh don't sweat it, you're probably a little bi and that sort of thing sometimes appeals to that part of you. It certainly doesn't mean you're abnormal or that you'll follow through in the real world, but I'd not worry about it anyway"? I just have the thought that the reassurance approach is kinda suggesting that being gay or bi is somehow negative, so guys(or gals) need reassurance that they're not. If you know what I mean?
It's just my opinion based on my own observations of the forum in question, where the question does come up fairly regular, and the reassurances given are generally more in line with your second paragraph than your first. Now, having said that, I personally don't agree with those kinds of assurances being given, so I tend to stay out of it as I figure the idea of the forum is to provide support for the LGBT community as a whole rather than voicing disagreement with popular opinion. Most of the time the support given is generally along the lines of they shouldn't be so conscious of labelling themselves, and it doesn't matter what they are, there's nothing wrong with being what they say themselves they don't want to be. The reason I suggest that it's not particularly helpful is because it's essentially not listening to what a person is saying, but rather telling them that they should feel a certain way about something they have a fundamental disagreement with. To me, the well-intended I guess, and well-meaning support, just comes off as patronising, but that's just me.Actually does this happen going the other way? Do people know gay folks who identify as such who go into romantic relationships, or regular sexual hookups with their opposite gender and still claim to be wholly gay, rather than bi? I've never heard of that, but I am wondering.
Only ever heard of it once in my life, when I was a teenager myself and I knew a guy like that, but even I myself wouldn't take that as evidence of anything because to be honest yer man was a bit of a tit anyway and loved the attention and validation he got from the small bevy of young and impressionable girls who were just as immature as he was (you can probably tell I didn't have a lot of time either for him or for them :pac:).*EDIT* down the years I have heard bi folks getting some static from both straight and gay people. The "pick a side FFS" angle. Maybe that's a social barrier to coming out as bisexual?
Aye, that's very much an influential factor I'd imagine, as from my perspective, rather than what people often imagine would be "the best of both worlds" as it were, I find the polar opposite to be more of a reality - rather than actually experiencing the best of both worlds, they experience the worst of both when it comes to potential relationships and being in relationships because there's an inherent and fundamental trust issue, particularly in monogamous relationships, where they are often viewed with suspicion and will their potential partner ever be "enough" for them. It's why I suspect people who are bisexual more often prefer to keep it to themselves if they are to have any hope of a relationship they desire. I also find though that socially at least, people tend to find female bisexuality a lot easier to cope with than male bisexuality. There are numerous reasons I would suggest for that, and all of them based upon perception rather than anything factual, because people more often than not tend to base their opinions on their own individual experiences and anecdotes, and objectivity is all too often sacrificed on the altar of ideological and individual wishful thinking.0 -
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