Is the Irish pub in trouble?

JupiterKid

munchkin_utd wrote: »

more than that though, in the past Ireland was a different place than nowadays in so many ways
- houses were crap, seriously, my mother in law was brought up with 8 other kids in a tiny thatched cottage, which was then "renovated" by covering the thatch with corraged sheets. It'd drive you to the drink, but not at home, where would you sit with all the kids about the place !
- there was way more bachelors down the country than nowdays, often working and living on a relatives farm, in tiny crappy houses full of kids. It'd definitely drive you to the pub.
- if you were a bachelors down the country, and didn't own a farm, you were never going to marry as you just hadn't the means to support a family. Actually, your life was just horrible, and the only escape was the pub, or the mental home, or be a priest, or emigrate.

Its hard for a lot of people nowadays to comprehend how bleak Ireland was, but for so many up until relatively recently the pub was just the only escape from the bleakness.

Now that Ireland is less bleak, the pubs (and mental homes) are less needed.

All very true. This country was deeply repressed and dirt poor. I would also add that at least some of those bachelor farmers were deeply repressed gay men in the closet who drank their misery and sexual frustration away, often to death.

Young people have no concept just how bleak and miserable a society Ireland was, especially in the DeValera years before we begsn to develop.It was essentially a Third World country.

kunst nugget

JupiterKid wrote: »

But look at how much booze can be bought now in supermarkets, petrol stations as well as offies, Home drinking might actually be more dangerous than pubs where the barman might tell you to go home as you’ve had enough.

In all my years of drinking, no matter how scuttered and messy I've been, I've never had a barman tell me I've had enough.

tayto lover

The publicans share most of the blame for their own demise.
Any chance to raise the price of the pint by 10 or 20 cents was taken at the earliest opportunity always.
Greed got in the way.

NIMAN

The Irish pub is finished. At least the rural one is.

I know of a few local ones and they get a handful of people in them, no idea how they are staying open
Big ones around centre of Dublin, Cork, Galway etc might survive as they have tourists or visitors to keep them going.

Oasis1974

kunst nugget wrote: »

JupiterKid wrote: »

But look at how much booze can be bought now in supermarkets, petrol stations as well as offies, Home drinking might actually be more dangerous than pubs where the barman might tell you to go home as you’ve had enough.

In all my years of drinking, no matter how scuttered and messy I've been, I've never had a barman tell me I've had enough.

Your blackouts would be the reason there.

Ubbquittious

JupiterKid wrote: »

All very true. This country was deeply repressed and dirt poor. I would also add that at least some of those bachelor farmers were deeply repressed gay men in the closet who drank their misery and sexual frustration away, often to death.

Young people have no concept just how bleak and miserable a society Ireland was, especially in the DeValera years before we begsn to develop.It was essentially a Third World country.

I'm not around that terribly long but Ireland has got considerably bleaker since the 90's.

Grayson

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I'm not around that terribly long but Ireland has got considerably bleaker since the 90's.

Not socially. In the beginning of the 90's it was illegal to have gay sex.


back on topic though, we need more options to the pub. A cafe culture like the continent would be nice.

kunst nugget

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I'm not around that terribly long but Ireland has got considerably bleaker since the 90's.

They stopped putting ecstasy in the drinking water in 98.

Ubbquittious

Grayson wrote: »

Not socially. In the beginning of the 90's it was illegal to have gay sex.


back on topic though, we need more options to the pub. A cafe culture like the continent would be nice.

Socially as well. Maybe things have improved for the gay crowd but they have disimproved for everyone else. The culture of landing up to someone's house for a chat is almost gone completely out the window now. Everything needs to be carefully planned ahead and people would rather sit behind a screen than mingle with real life peeps.

And feck the continent. The relentless desire to become more like mainbland Europe will be the ruination of this place

Cienciano

kunst nugget wrote: »

In all my years of drinking, no matter how scuttered and messy I've been, I've never had a barman tell me I've had enough.

And plenty of pubs have their share of local alcoholics that prop up the bar and spend every penny they have there.

Franz Von Peppercorn

kunst nugget wrote: »

In all my years of drinking, no matter how scuttered and messy I've been, I've never had a barman tell me I've had enough.

I am not a heavy drinker but I was refused once. Bit galling since I had in fact left an office Christmas in London to head back to the hotel early enough, about 9 pm. We started at 4. The others were out till all hours.

Back in the hotel I get a quiet pint while reading a paper. Keep to myself and asked for another and the Australian bar man refused. I must have stumbled or slurred or something. He was polite, I retired to bed and all was well.

The other bar staff were a bit bemused, one girl said “he was ok?” as I left. Looking into this the penalties are high in Australia for serving to drunk people.

Loss of job, or the pub if you own it. Criminal penalties. Obviously if we stopped serving alcohol to drunks here the pubs would get deserted.

hurler32

Twenty years ago many younger people spent their disposable income in the local pub ... now many of modern Ireland youth are buying drugs instead mostly cocaine ...that's the reason fellows down the road who never did a days work is driving a BMW while your local pub is boarded up ...

bucketybuck

whisky_galore wrote: »

The numbers of oul lads and 'professional drinkers' content to prop up a bar counter all day talking shyte are dwindling.

bigpink wrote: »

The fun and characters are gone

In some areas you'll often hear people wistfully talk about these characters and the craic that used to be had.

Its all a crock of ****e, more often than not those "characters" were a bunch of dirty old creeps who came out with something witty maybe once in a blue moon, lads who pissed all their lives and money away telling the same old stories in the same ****ty little bars.

It took a lifetime of propping up a bar to generate one or two funny stories about the hijinks those "characters" used to get up to, some bargain that. :rolleyes:

Stonedpilot

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Just because AA didn’t work for you, or someone you know, doesn’t mean it hasn’t worked for millions of people worldwide. It has saved literally millions of lives, and given them a life they couldn’t have imagined while in the depths of alcohol addiction.

Your advice to someone in recovery in that post of yours was less than useless.

Haha advice; simply a different perspective on "recovery".

AA by its own admission has never cured anyone. Ever. It cant with the rhetoric it has look at chapter 5 how it works.

My point is very simple. Its much easier to beat an addiction without the recovery "mindset" which is learned helplessness is psychology and is terrible for someone with addiction.
Addiction -to learned helplessness in recovery can be just as dysfunctional.
Recovery many believe they are in forever.

My views differ to yours. I know AA hasnt "cured" alcoholism as it admits so. It might benefit some but people sober up themselves not some magical made up "spiritual awakening" written by a man off his tree on LSD some 80 years ago.


Your angry response is to use your words less than useless!.

somesoldiers

bucketybuck wrote: »

In some areas you'll often hear people wistfully talk about these characters and the craic that used to be had.

Its all a crock of ****e, more often than not those "characters" were a bunch of dirty old creeps who came out with something witty maybe once in a blue moon, lads who pissed all their lives and money away telling the same old stories in the same ****ty little bars.

It took a lifetime of propping up a bar to generate one or two funny stories about the hijinks those "characters" used to get up to, some bargain that. :rolleyes:

Ah The Pintmen- agree, do occasional work if ever, drink any money they got, head home when it was all gone and beat the wife and kids, great lads.

hurler32

I would think it's more the Rural pub that's finished rather than the urban pub ....the rural pub will be gone like creamerys , Garda stations , post offices etc in rural Ireland ... Fine Gael will pi55 themselves laughing at the rural folk that still vote for them

ted1

JupiterKid wrote: »

It seems that since the 2004 smoking ban and the crackdown on drink driving and the post Tiger recession, pubs are closing all over the country in their droves. Rural towns that had perhaps 8 or 9 pubs now only have 3 or 4. Those remaining open are having to offer food offerings, smoking beer gardens, live music. Many pubs only open in the evenings on a Thurs to Sunday basis now.

The tiny old man single room pubs are virtually disappearing. What is the reason for this change? More home drinking? Pub alcohol prices too high or a more general shift in Irish culture?

Is really does seem that the the golden era of the Irish pub is well and truly over.

Thoughts?

Your 2004 statement is false.
The decline started in 2000 when pubs charged a fortune in for the millienium and people realised yiu can drink at home

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I'm not around that terribly long but Ireland has got considerably bleaker since the 90's.

No it feckin hasn't.

Shurimgreat

Its not just the pub that's in trouble.
Now that anything can be bought online, music shops, book stores, and most small retailers are in trouble.
Mixed feelings about this but I guess its progress, although most of the profits are going into the hands of large corporations and billionaires like Jeff Bezos.

seachto7

People have finally realized that you don’t need to spend your time in a pub drinking your brains out.
The amount of good holidays that go in over a bar counter every month...
The controversy over pubs open or not on Good Friday highlights the obsession with alcohol in this country.
I know someone who spent Good Friday, Saturday, Sunday and bank holiday Monday in the pub. What a waste of money and a waste of a life.

Trasna1

JupiterKid wrote: »

All very true. This country was deeply repressed and dirt poor. I would also add that at least some of those bachelor farmers were deeply repressed gay men in the closet who drank their misery and sexual frustration away, often to death.

Young people have no concept just how bleak and miserable a society Ireland was, especially in the DeValera years before we begsn to develop.It was essentially a Third World country.

Many of those bachelors were heterosexuals who got caught by a changing world. Women moved to the cities from the country and marrying men their own age as opposed to older farmers who has just inherited the farm. As parents started to live longer, this pushed out the freedom gained with the inheritance. By the time the inheritance came, the men were often too old to find a partner.

There were repressed gays as well, but unless they were the eldest son they would have gone to cities or sometimes the priesthood.

There was a lot of sexual frustration for these men, and I sometimes wonder how different things could have been had they been able to live normally.

backspin.

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Haha advice; simply a different perspective on "recovery".

AA by its own admission has never cured anyone. Ever. It cant with the rhetoric it has look at chapter 5 how it works.

My point is very simple. Its much easier to beat an addiction without the recovery "mindset" which is learned helplessness is psychology and is terrible for someone with addiction.
Addiction -to learned helplessness in recovery can be just as dysfunctional.
Recovery many believe they are in forever.

My views differ to yours. I know AA hasnt "cured" alcoholism as it admits so. It might benefit some but people sober up themselves not some magical made up "spiritual awakening" written by a man off his tree on LSD some 80 years ago.


Your angry response is to use your words less than useless!.

I know plenty of people it has worked for. Why would it bother you so much anyway?

Assetbacked

In Dublin, while I understand that there are occasions where going to a pub for a few drinks is fun; as a general point it is shocking to pay as much as it costs for a pint of beer or mixed drink as well as food. Going out for a few beers and some food in a bar could cost €40+. Getting a drink/glass of wine and dinner in a pub could be €20+ which means, midweek, this is not going to happen unless for an occasion. Adding to this; dinner and a few drinks at the weekend and one meal out with a beer during the week could be €240+ per month. There is a lot better things that that money could be spent on (e.g. flights or covering rent for a nicer place!) when measured against the benefit received for spending it in a pub on 2-4 hours per week enjoyment.

For additional context; rent is already at a crisis level and, although having a decent salary, the cost of the above added to rent would obliterate your disposable income. It's strange that, during the recession a lot of places started doing deals to get people in, but now a lot of that has disappeared and arguably average prices are higher but the standard of pubs is similar. Meanwhile, wages have not risen meaning that, I'm guessing, for quite a lot of people the supposed strong economy is not felt in their wallets.

whisky_galore

seachto7 wrote: »

People have finally realized that you don’t need to spend your time in a pub drinking your brains out.
The amount of good holidays that go in over a bar counter every month...
The controversy over pubs open or not on Good Friday highlights the obsession with alcohol in this country.
I know someone who spent Good Friday, Saturday, Sunday and bank holiday Monday in the pub. What a waste of money and a waste of a life.

The power of lobbying... ah shur lookit the poor oul tourists wandering around bewildered, all that money and no where to spend it.

dubstepper

Agricola wrote: »

We've moved on. We like to live up to the "happy drunken Irish" stereotype every now and again but the days of the pub being like a second home for people is long gone. People have finally discovered that there's lot of other things you can do with your time off.

I think this has a lot to do with it. I grew up in Dublin in the 80/90s and most of my friend's fathers (and mine) went to the pub most nights. Same with my grandparent's generation. I don't know anybody who goes drinking after work on a tue/wed from my peers. People are healthier. Also women wouldn't put up with it like they did in the past. If I ever go to the local early in the week they are empty.

10000maniacs

I don't like pubs enough for me to be subsidizing them via minimum pricing.
I hope Europe puts a stop to this Fine Gael brain fart.

Stonedpilot

backspin. wrote: »

I know plenty of people it has worked for. Why would it bother you so much anyway?

It doesn't, learned helplessness sects I haven't time for others do.

What I'm saying is more ways to skin a cat!.

B.A._Baracus

Costs too much.
You will easily spend 5-6 euro a pint in town. So 40 to 50 euro on 8 pints. Want something to eat afterwards? Another ten euro then a 25 euro taxi home if you live anywhere decent distance outside of the city centre (blanch etc)

So 90 euro on a night out that is no guarantee of being fun. That or invite a few friends around and buy an 8 pack in spar.

I think drinking culture in general has declined compared to even 10 years ago and defintely 20 years ago. These sorts of changes happen gradually without us really noticing until things have changed.

I believe I've read that todays teenagers are much "better behaved" in relation to many criteria compared to their predecessors so it stands to reason that the culture of drinking will be impacted by this, going forward.

I think people are more atomised too nowadays, living in areas where they don't know, and dont want to know, their neighbours and are content to hole themselves away in their home after work and watch stuff on netflix or play computer games, and if they fancy a drink they can open a bottle of wine or some cans. You need to remember that prior to say 2006 most people didnt have fast internet,or indeed smartphones, and so their range of entertainment options were quite limited in comparison with nowadays, and they couldnt commuicate with their friends for free through whatsapp etc. so everyone was more incentivised to meet up with each other in person - nowadays people have less to talk about when they meet up with each other because they already have been made aware of the highlights of the other persons last week via snapchat, whatsapp, facebook, instagram etc.
When they do meet up then there is much less interesting material to discuss and conversations end up being about stuff like tv shows, current affairs stuff you've read about on the internet etc. Technology since the mid 2000s has changed society radically and the world of the 90s, and even the early 2000s, and before, is quaint in comparison - the decline of people meeting up in the pub during the week is a consequence of this.

Also, I belive people people take life more seriously nowadays compared to the past. Most people seem to believe they should be killing it at every area of life - fitness, appearance, not smoking, not taking drugs, not being an alcoholic, intelligent, high achieving, nice girlfriend, great job etc. whereas even as late as the late 2000s people didn't have as high expectations on themselves. It was okay for *you* to be average enough in all these sorts of categoris since most other people seemed to be. But now it seems everyone is trying to put themselves out there as the "best" version of themselves they can be. Social media has contibuted to this cultural shift as feelings of insecurity from witnessing *other peoples* best representation of themselves online has incentvised people to try to iron out all their flaws.

facehugger99

I was shocked at how much my local charged me for a G&T recently. Apparently if they serve it to you in a fishbowl and stick a few slices of cucumber in it they are perfectly entitled to give your wallet a right doing over.

It's madness.

BuilderPlumber

My experience was there were about 4 good pubs near me that had something to offer. All 4 closed because the owners got sick or died. The other pubs near me do not deserve custom and are useless. So, when the good ones were gone, I did not go to the others. One place has an obnoxious barmaid who listens to bad modern country music on a radio and cuts up all the pub's customers. That sort of attitude is why no one is going in there much. They rely 100% on noisy 18th and 21st birthday parties now.

Franz Von Peppercorn

whisky_galore wrote: »

The power of lobbying... ah shur lookit the poor oul tourists wandering around bewildered, all that money and no where to spend it.

Far too easy to blame lobbying. Look at the threads here. People’s essential freedom was being curtailed by that one day and it was like the 1932 Eucharistic Congress was back in town.

SilverPenney

I have always felt that the decline of the Irish pub scene is in many ways a perfect metaphor for the development of Irish society in the past 10-20 years in general. The old guard of auld lads who used to pack out pubs are thinning out by the year, people simply have different interests, women don't put up with their fellas staying down the bar 4 nights a week, far more health conscious and the cost of rent/mortgage/running the car etc mean people have less income to be spending on drink.

2ndcoming

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Costs too much.
You will easily spend 5-6 euro a pint in town. So 40 to 50 euro on 8 pints. Want something to eat afterwards? Another ten euro then a 25 euro taxi home if you live anywhere decent distance outside of the city centre (blanch etc)

So 90 euro on a night out that is no guarantee of being fun. That or invite a few friends around and buy an 8 pack in spar.

Haven't been ar5ed with that since pre-drinking as a younger man.

Home drinking means a) no creamy pints, b) no chance of bumping into anyone, c) having to clean up after yourself, d) did I mention no creamy pints?

€4.40 in my local, or about a €2 premium on a can. Well worth it.

Home is your refuge from the world in my book, it's not for sharing. Except with your loved ones obvs, and if they're pi55ing you off thankfully there's a place you can go.

Deise Vu

I think there are lots of reasons and I think the decline is terminal.

Firstly mobile phones and social media. In my day if you didn't go to the Pub you weren't going to meet girls or find out where the after hours party was going to be.

Society is also way more fragmented than in my youth. Back then a decent barman would have been earning a relatively decent wage. Now it is a minimum wage gig economy job. That's why, when you walk into a pub, you end up looking at the back of three or four heads gathered round the till trying to figure out how it works instead of getting a smile, a bit of a slagging about your football team and a cheery 'the usual?' from the bar staff you know for ten years.

Middle class society has also evolved into a 'coping' class who are more concerned about paying exhorbitant charges for education and health and saving for 2 weeks in the sun than spending Friday and Saturday night in the pub. The 'working' class (ie people who don't work) can't afford Pub prices and will go for the volume provided in their local Lidl rather than the atmosphere in a pub. Back in the day there wasn't so much disparity in the price and the quality and choice certainly wasn't there.


It all becomes a death spiral then, nobody wants to be in a pub with no atmosphere so they stop going and then no atmosphere is created which might entice them back. The future is gastropubs and one or two places where an owner and his wife are providing the atmosphere and conviviality.

dubstepper

Deise Vu wrote: »

The 'working' class (ie people who don't work) .

:D

draiochtanois

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Deise Vu

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Jeez, that's enough to drive me to drink! :eek::eek:

VinLieger

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Far too easy to blame lobbying. Look at the threads here. People’s essential freedom was being curtailed by that one day and it was like the 1932 Eucharistic Congress was back in town.

Look at minimum unit pricing and the zero facts or scientific evidence to back it up as an example of how powerful the vintners lobbying is. They saw the off trade doing well but didn't want to innovate or try to actually win customers back from it so they went their old standard of get the government make them come back to us.

Zebra3

dubstepper wrote: »

I think this has a lot to do with it. I grew up in Dublin in the 80/90s and most of my friend's fathers (and mine) went to the pub most nights. Same with my grandparent's generation. I don't know anybody who goes drinking after work on a tue/wed from my peers. People are healthier. Also women wouldn't put up with it like they did in the past. If I ever go to the local early in the week they are empty.

Both parents working now in a lot of families has changed all this as well.

B.A._Baracus

2ndcoming wrote: »

Haven't been ar5ed with that since pre-drinking as a younger man.

Home drinking means a) no creamy pints, b) no chance of bumping into anyone, c) having to clean up after yourself, d) did I mention no creamy pints?

€4.40 in my local, or about a €2 premium on a can. Well worth it.

Home is your refuge from the world in my book, it's not for sharing. Except with your loved ones obvs, and if they're pi55ing you off thankfully there's a place you can go.

To be honest I'm at that age where I would just rather get an 8 pack and watch a movie or TV at home than go to a pub.

Did the going out to a pub week in week out when I was in my early 20s. My friends and I at the time would always go to the same pub too. Got bored with going out.


Age I guess.

El Weirdo

facehugger99 wrote: »

I was shocked at how much my local charged me for a G&T recently. Apparently if they serve it to you in a fishbowl and stick a few slices of cucumber in it they are perfectly entitled to give your wallet a right doing over.

It's madness.

How much? Any particular gin?

gmisk

I think there will always be a place for a Pub, but I think especially in citys they need to stand out.
People are more demanding in general now when it comes to the options of alcohol on offer, food etc.
I have to say as I get older (36 now) I visit a pub a lot less, maybe once every couple of weeks, I much prefer to have a drink on Friday/Saturday at home (I have a well stocked booze chest) rather than deal with the pumping music and crowds of most pubs in town.

buried

The pubs are finished out the country for sure, maybe one or two in a large enough town can survive a small bit with a decent enough landlord that wants to provide a decent service. Young people still want to go out the weekends, don't they?? Was in my local last Friday night and it was GRIM As Fahhck. Made a drunken rant about how pubs should provide some actual decent music and stick some projection of visuals up a wall to create a bit of atmosphere of a weekend night. Surely there is some way pubs can get their hands on some sort of spotify like jukebox or something where the customers can stick on their own playlists from their phones or something, have their tunes played over the pubs sound systym, doesn't have to be loud, I have no idea if such a thing exists or not but I think it would be a good idea, surely worth a try.
The "nightclubs" out the country are finished for sure. My local place literally looks like this every weekend night

Franz Von Peppercorn

VinLieger wrote: »

Look at minimum unit pricing and the zero facts or scientific evidence to back it up as an example of how powerful the vintners lobbying is. They saw the off trade doing well but didn't want to innovate or try to actually win customers back from it so they went their old standard of get the government make them come back to us.

Not doubting the power of the vintners but they weren’t the main force behind good Friday. In fact many stayed shut.

Cienciano

buried wrote: »

The pubs are finished out the country for sure, maybe one or two in a large enough town can survive a small bit with a decent enough landlord that wants to provide a decent service. Young people still want to go out the weekends, don't they?? Was in my local last Friday night and it was GRIM As Fahhck. Made a drunken rant about how pubs should provide some actual decent music and stick some projection of visuals up a wall to create a bit of atmosphere of a weekend night. Surely there is some way pubs can get their hands on some sort of spotify like jukebox or something where the customers can stick on their own playlists from their phones or something, have their tunes played over the pubs sound systym, doesn't have to be loud, I have no idea if such a thing exists or not but I think it would be a good idea, surely worth a try.
The "nightclubs" out the country are finished for sure. My local place literally looks like this every weekend night

The problem is, half the people want music, half don't. I was in a pub on Saturday night and live music came in to set up, we all left and went down the road. Same with TV, some people want it, some don't. Unless a pub is big enough to have 2 different sections you'll never have people happy.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Sofiztikated

buried wrote: »

The pubs are finished out the country for sure, maybe one or two in a large enough town can survive a small bit with a decent enough landlord that wants to provide a decent service. Young people still want to go out the weekends, don't they?? Was in my local last Friday night and it was GRIM As Fahhck. Made a drunken rant about how pubs should provide some actual decent music and stick some projection of visuals up a wall to create a bit of atmosphere of a weekend night. Surely there is some way pubs can get their hands on some sort of spotify like jukebox or something where the customers can stick on their own playlists from their phones or something, have their tunes played over the pubs sound systym, doesn't have to be loud, I have no idea if such a thing exists or not but I think it would be a good idea, surely worth a try.
The "nightclubs" out the country are finished for sure. My local place literally looks like this every weekend night

Its bad enough people ****ing about and fighting over playlists at afters, never mind in the pubs.

whisky_galore

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Noticed the radiators at boiling point on a mild night in one city pub.

Re loud music, I find if the bar staff are wearing ear plugs it's time to change venue.

Most Irish clubs esp the rural ones are bargain basement kips, magnets for trouble, they rarely look nice....black painted walls and sh*t decor and horrendously expensive drink.

Doltanian

I went on a date out with a woman in Dublin recently €5.50 for a bottle of Heineken and €3.00 for a can of Diet Coke. The food I forget although it was cheaper than Killarney prices but the steak was like old rubber boots. I’m a non drinker so normally despise pubs and the environment was loud, boisterous with Man U v City however the date went well but I’ll definitely not be taking her back to that same place again.