New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

Qrt

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine getting that Luas black line from Lucan good god no. That plan needs to die a death.

I feel like it would be fine from Liffey Valley, after that being an absolute hell.

BonnieSituation

Qrt wrote: »

I feel like it would be fine from Liffey Valley, after that being an absolute hell.

I would be more for it if it went straight from Ballyfermot down the Con Colbert and and joined the Red Line at Hesuton.

Imagine being on that trama dn it dog legging up Kylemore and then down the canal or red line at Kylmore. It would be interminable.

A line from Chapelizod, up Kylemore Road connecting with the Black Line at the Assumption Chuch at aBallyfermot Road and continuing on to Walkinstown etc would be a nice link in the chain.

But dear God if Lucan gets a Luas it needs to go via Con Colbert.

Even better if it was metro standard and they opened Kishoge to let us get a train.

Kellyconor1982

Was in Cologne at the weekend and their tram lines essentially dominates the very centre of their roads. It works well. Really class transport system as you expect from a German city.

Unfortunately, Dublin's roads are much more compact so unless whole routes became car free it wouldn't work here. It was easier on the luas to dundrum (future metro) because there was an old line there.

Essentially, it highlights the need for the city to have a real plan for further underground lines across the city.

Without derailing the initial metro 1 line which needs to happen first and by 2027, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect at least one more metro line by 2035 and a further one on the way by 2040. If cities like Dhaka and hanoi can do it we can.

I would love if we could get the sw metro spur and dart underground by 2035 and the metro west (line 3) either constructed or being built by 2040 going from dundrum orbitally around the city hitting big spots like knocklyon, rathfarnham, tallaght, clondalkin, blanch, finglas, ballymun and on to swords. Part of this line would already be there as I would have Knocklyon, rathfarnham and tallaght as existing stations on the sw spur.

That would give us a proper top class transport system to be proud of.

roadmaster

Qrt wrote: »

You'd be looking at CPO'ing back gardens and other stuff because we were bleedin' thicks and didn't plan for the future.

Got the Train down from Belfast yesterday morning to the office as i had being at a work function on Monday up there and was not fit to drive the next morning. You are right about the CPO's needed if four tracks where to go in. Serious work would be needed, there is whinging now about people losing front gardens for bus connects i would say there would be near civil war with what would have to be taken to enable four tracks out of Connolly.

cgcsb

A third track would probably provide sufficient paths for overtaking.

ncounties

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine getting that Luas black line from Lucan good god no. That plan needs to die a death.

Yeah, a humid bus would be much better.

BonnieSituation

ncounties wrote: »

Yeah, a humid bus would be much better.

A packed tram going around the houses at a snails pace is hardly something you'd look forward to.

Look at the state of it.

I guess you think trams are immune to the effects of condensation.

tom1ie

ncounties wrote: »

Yeah, a humid bus would be much better.

A tram going out to Lucan would be a complete waste of time and money. I doubt very much if it would be able to compete with a brt route via the n4 qbc’s that will be upgraded during bus connects.
Anyway that area has a heavy rail station. It just needs to be opened. In fact it’s a 3 min drive to the p+r at kishogue from the penny hill grill. A shuttle bus should be set up there once the station is open.
Why some sort of public pressure group hasn’t been setup to wreck the local politicians heads on this topic I’ll never know. It’d take a lot of cars off the road. There’s a good road infrastructure around that p+r.
You’d only have 2 stops (park west and Clondalkin) before your at Hueston station with access to the red line Luas, or there’s the ppt option to get to Connolly etc.

Qrt

tom1ie wrote: »

A tram going out to Lucan would be a complete waste of time and money. I doubt very much if it would be able to compete with a brt route via the n4 qbc’s that will be upgraded during bus connects.
Anyway that area has a heavy rail station. It just needs to be opened. In fact it’s a 3 min drive to the p+r at kishogue from the penny hill grill. A shuttle bus should be set up there once the station is open.
Why some sort of public pressure group hasn’t been setup to wreck the local politicians heads on this topic I’ll never know. It’d take a lot of cars off the road. There’s a good road infrastructure around that p+r.
You’d only have 2 stops (park west and Clondalkin) before your at Hueston station with access to the red line Luas, or there’s the ppt option to get to Connolly etc.

I think at the moment it's a bit of a "it only leaves you at heuston, what's the point?" attitude. It's also 100% understandable considering the extra fare you'd have to pay to use what is an infrequent service.

Stephen15

Qrt wrote: »

I think at the moment it's a bit of a "it only leaves you at heuston, what's the point?" attitude. It's also 100% understandable considering the extra fare you'd have to pay to use what is an infrequent service.

Would be sorted out if they ran more PPT services

tom1ie

Stephen15 wrote: »

Would be sorted out if they ran more PPT services

If they ran more ppt services, plus introduced an integrated ticketing system that allowed you to tag on at the feeder bus, tag on at kishogue, and tag on at red Luas, or whatever high frequency bus corridor goes by hueston after bus connects. It could be somewhat like the €2.90 for 90 mins traveling that bc will deliver.

roadmaster

i seen the other day in ongar a developer has a picture of a train and the luas for excellent transport links. They must know something about a luas line going out that way. ( fine print probably says connect in broombridge) But a purchaser not up to date with transport probably sees that and thinks there is a luas coming to Ongar. Good sales ploy!

cgcsb

roadmaster wrote: »

i seen the other day in ongar a developer has a picture of a train and the luas for excellent transport links. They must know something about a luas line going out that way. ( fine print probably says connect in broombridge) But a purchaser not up to date with transport probably sees that and thinks there is a luas coming to Ongar. Good sales ploy!

What rational person thinks that the state will just up and build a radial light railway parallel to an existing heavy railway and only a couple of metres apart?

roadmaster

cgcsb wrote: »

What rational person thinks that the state will just up and build a radial light railway parallel to an existing heavy railway and only a couple of metres apart?

Plenty the country is full of irrational people especially in Dublin

Ernest

Dublin could have a new metro service by 2025 completely funded by private investment, according to the CEO of Dublin Metro.

Jed van de Poll says that the format has already worked successfully in Madrid at a fraction of the cost of the Jubilee Line in London.

While plans for a one-line Metro North are still in the pipeline, Mr van de Poll told Newstalk Breakfast that a six-line metro system linking into a central loop and connecting with existing routes and services such as Luas, Dart and Dublin Bus could be built quickly and efficiently using the Madrid model.

The Metro Dublin plan would cost €9bn, which he says is a third of what would normally be considered for a project of this size.

However, he says that no Government funding is required as private funding would be forthcoming for half of the cost while the other half would come from the European Investment Bank which was set up to fund such projects.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/private-funding-could-provide-dublin-with-new-metro-by-2025-says-dublin-metro-chief-889462.html

Sam Russell

Ernest wrote: »

Dublin could have a new metro service by 2025 completely funded by private investment, according to the CEO of Dublin Metro.

Jed van de Poll says that the format has already worked successfully in Madrid at a fraction of the cost of the Jubilee Line in London.

While plans for a one-line Metro North are still in the pipeline, Mr van de Poll told Newstalk Breakfast that a six-line metro system linking into a central loop and connecting with existing routes and services such as Luas, Dart and Dublin Bus could be built quickly and efficiently using the Madrid model.

The Metro Dublin plan would cost €9bn, which he says is a third of what would normally be considered for a project of this size.

However, he says that no Government funding is required as private funding would be forthcoming for half of the cost while the other half would come from the European Investment Bank which was set up to fund such projects.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/private-funding-could-provide-dublin-with-new-metro-by-2025-says-dublin-metro-chief-889462.html

I think this is a rehash of this.

LeinsterDub

Ernest wrote: »

Dublin could have a new metro service by 2025 completely funded by private investment, according to the CEO of Dublin Metro.

Jed van de Poll says that the format has already worked successfully in Madrid at a fraction of the cost of the Jubilee Line in London.

While plans for a one-line Metro North are still in the pipeline, Mr van de Poll told Newstalk Breakfast that a six-line metro system linking into a central loop and connecting with existing routes and services such as Luas, Dart and Dublin Bus could be built quickly and efficiently using the Madrid model.

The Metro Dublin plan would cost €9bn, which he says is a third of what would normally be considered for a project of this size.

However, he says that no Government funding is required as private funding would be forthcoming for half of the cost while the other half would come from the European Investment Bank which was set up to fund such projects.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/private-funding-could-provide-dublin-with-new-metro-by-2025-says-dublin-metro-chief-889462.html

I know these lads are probably complete cowboys but at this stage I'd say let them off.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think this is a rehash of this.

Pretty sure it's these guys, MetroDublin. The fact that they could get any media coverage is an indictment of the quality of journalism in Ireland.

I mean, it's just some guy operating out of his apartment, FFS.

Plus he's clearly using crayons and a Fisherprice calculator.

Also, the guy behind it, Jed van de Poll, is from media background, no engineering experience at all.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

Pretty sure it's these guys, MetroDublin. The fact that they could get any media coverage is an indictment of the quality of journalism in Ireland.

I mean, it's just some guy operating out of his apartment, FFS.

Plus he's clearly using crayons and a Fisherprice calculator.

Also, the guy behind it, Jed van de Poll, is from media background, no engineering experience at all.

They quote Metro North (2014) - so not today's news.

godtabh

CatInABox wrote: »

Pretty sure it's these guys, MetroDublin. The fact that they could get any media coverage is an indictment of the quality of journalism in Ireland.

I mean, it's just some guy operating out of his apartment, FFS.

Plus he's clearly using crayons and a Fisherprice calculator.

Also, the guy behind it, Jed van de Poll, is from media background, no engineering experience at all.

So pure crack pot?

I've had a recruiter contact me asking to join their team. No specifics other to say that they have received independent funding to peruse a railway order. Couldnt tell me what the role was only who I'd be working for

Lord Glentoran

godtabh wrote: »

So pure crack pot?

I've had a recruiter contact me asking to join their team. No specifics other to say that they have received independent funding to peruse a railway order. Couldnt tell me what the role was only who I'd be working for

At this stage I wouldn’t be surprised if the whole thing got turned into a cycle lane. No transit project in Dublin since the mid 1970s has survived intact from concept to operation. A lot of that has been to do with the near clueless being given a platform to attack the basics behind any project. I well remember the late Rudigger Monahan being taken seriously when he claimed that Dawson Street would be closed permanently to even pedestrians because of Luas. Garret Fitzgerald’s declaration that trams could never take the corner from the Green to Dawson Street, and Uinseann MacEoin claiming that buses were adequate for all future demand in Dublin, are examples of the sort of feckwittery that was taken seriously for so long.

Who benefits from this nonsense of permanent redesign?

Sam Russell

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

At this stage I wouldn’t be surprised if the whole thing got turned into a cycle lane. No transit project in Dublin since the mid 1970s has survived intact from concept to operation. A lot of that has been to do with the near clueless being given a platform to attack the basics behind any project. I well remember the late Rudigger Monahan being taken seriously when he claimed that Dawson Street would be closed permanently to even pedestrians because of Luas. Garret Fitzgerald’s declaration that trams could never take the corner from the Green to Dawson Street, and Uinseann MacEoin claiming that buses were adequate for all future demand in Dublin, are examples of the sort of feckwittery that was taken seriously for so long.

Who benefits from this nonsense of permanent redesign?

Actually Garret the Good suggested that the Luas should go underground in the City Centre. Pity Mammy O'Rourke did not listen.

Lord Glentoran

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually Garret the Good suggested that the Luas should go underground in the City Centre. Pity Mammy O'Rourke did not listen.

With the portal at the Green. I admire Garret for most things but transport isn’t one of them. Also, Mammy did initially go with that idea, at her “IR£400 million plus? Plus means extra” press conference in 1998.

salmocab

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

With the portal at the Green. I admire Garret for most things but transport isn’t one of them.

Although it would be worse than what’s planned it would have been better than what we have and may have accelerated the underground idea.

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are so sure they are wrong. Why don’t you go down there and count them?

I am not in any way saying that the planners are wrong.

But it does seem that there are moves to extend the proposed tunnel to beyond Dunville Avenue, rather than the earlier situation - around the time that the route emerged, and for some time after that - where the planners were apparently adamant that the tunnel would emerge somewhere around the Charlemont/Ranelagh area.

Extending the tunnel to beyond the Beechwood stop, to avoid the Dunville Avenue crossing, would obviously involve extra cost over what they were originally planning.

Thus the level of road traffic throughput at the Dunville Avenue crossing is relevant, and I thought somebody on the board might have those figures.

strassenwo!f

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You're maths is wrong. 72 trains per hour means on average a trains passes a point more than once a minute. You've attempted to have 2 trams going in opposite directions past the same spot at the same time. A good idea on paper but one that simply doesn't hold up if watch the real world operation of the Luas. You've also not factored in the length of time it takes cars to clear these junctions which you need to when you're talking about an average opening time of about 30 seconds

I've looked at it again, and I can't see where my maths is wrong, though I did forget to mention to the board that I was using an acceleration rate for the tram of 1 metre per square second in my original post. (this is what gives the figure of 11.83 seconds for a 55m tram to cross the Dunville Avenue junction). Some trams have higher acceleration rates, but that seems to be about the norm.

I was also talking about the current situation, with around 20 tph in each direction, in my efforts to find out what the situation at Dunville Avenue actually is, in terms of traffic.

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I've looked at it again, and I can't see where my maths is wrong, though I did forget to mention to the board that I was using an acceleration rate for the tram of 1 metre per square second in my original post. (this is what gives the figure of 11.83 seconds for a 55m tram to cross the Dunville Avenue junction). Some trams have higher acceleration rates, but that seems to be about the norm.

I was also talking about the current situation, with around 20 tph in each direction, in my efforts to find out what the situation at Dunville Avenue actually is, in terms of traffic.

It's fairly simple 72 trams an hour. 60 minutes in an hour

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I am not in any way saying that the planners are wrong.

But it does seem that there are moves to extend the proposed tunnel to beyond Dunville Avenue, rather than the earlier situation - around the time that the route emerged, and for some time after that - where the planners were apparently adamant that the tunnel would emerge somewhere around the Charlemont/Ranelagh area.

Extending the tunnel to beyond the Beechwood stop, to avoid the Dunville Avenue crossing, would obviously involve extra cost over what they were originally planning.

Thus the level of road traffic throughput at the Dunville Avenue crossing is relevant, and I thought somebody on the board might have those figures.

The emerging preferred route had numerous locations for the tunnel opening, including both Charlemont and Beechwood. The NTA were never "adamant" about the location, they had their preferred option, but were always open to changing it.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But it does seem that there are moves to extend the proposed tunnel to beyond Dunville Avenue, rather than the earlier situation - around the time that the route emerged, and for some time after that - where the planners were apparently adamant that the tunnel would emerge somewhere around the Charlemont/Ranelagh area.

Are you really this unfamiliar with the standard infrastructure planning process? There was a preferred route published for Metrolink, and along with that came a planning document which explained all of the alternative options considered, along with various costings (which I know you can't have failed to have seen in this thread the countless times we've posted them).

The planners were never 'adamant' about anything, and I don't know where you've invented that factoid from, but it's completely made up.

strassenwo!f

Sam Russell wrote: »

My nearest station is Sydney Parade on the Dart. The gates close two minutes before a south bound train and three minutes before a north bound train. The Darts are scheduled every 10 minutes with diesel trains added. So approximately 50% of the time, the gates are closed.

Perhaps you might contact Irish Rail and ask them why they have not applied Newton's laws to get a tighter time on gate closures at Sydney Parade. If the Dart was every 5 minutes, the gates would not open at all.

The situation on the DART is not particularly relevant to what is happening, or might happen, with Dublin's trams, because of the much shorter stopping distance required for even a 55m tram - all of us have seen a tram being able to stop pretty quickly when faced with a car or the inevitable Dublin jaywalker on O'Connell Street and elsewhere in the city.

DARTs and Arrows don't have that same capacity, but I have indeed often been puzzled by the length of time that the gates go down along the DART line or elsewhere in Ireland - presumably because of the local health and safety rules.

They seem to be much tighter than anything I've seen in other European countries. Switzerland would be my favourite, where the lights come on, the gates go down, about 10 seconds later the train passes, and then the gates go up. Obviously at Sydney Parade, Sandymount and Lansdowne Road there is a miniscule possibility of a train overrun, but why do the gates at Serpentine Avenue need to be down so long? That's always been a real puzzle for me.